Well, after breaking 2000 comments on the previous thread, I think it’s time to move to a new one. Feel free to continue the conversation here.
Also, I want to make a note about future posts. The tone on this blog for the last month or so has been decidedly different than what it used to be. While that’s definitely made things interesting, I’d like to move back to a tone more in line with the way things used to be. So going forward, I want the comments on all new posts to remain civil. We can all make our points, and I expect to see a wide range of opinions. But I don’t want to get into name-calling and bashing when we can’t all agree on particular issues. Let’s try to stay focused on the points and not get side-tracked with personal stuff. Let’s also keep each comment substantive so we don’t rack up so many comments in such a short period of time that it’s hard for everyone to keep track.
If you don’t feel like you can participate within those guidelines, then feel free to continue posting within this thread (and any future “Kathy” threads, if they’re needed), because I won’t be enforcing any guidelines here. But if you want to comment on any other posts, you’ll need to abide by the rules I just laid out. Otherwise, your comment will be subject to deletion, and after a warning, you might find yourself banned from at least that thread, if not the entire blog.
If there are any questions, let me know.
Thanks
Finding Truth 
“Did Jesus command us to kill those who wouldn’t follow Him? Nope.”
No he didn’t have to. If they didn’t follow him their punishment was eternal damnation after their death. Yet in much of the OT , there was no eternal punishment after their death. Therefore they were killed for their sins.
All Christianity changed was you were allowed to be the biggest sinner here on earth , but after you died you got an eternal punishment.
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…the very thing that not only kept Christianity alive but made it the most followed faith.
No matter how much you try to dismiss martyrdom, it’s the very thing that spread Christianity. It is KEY to Christianity’s survival. Without it, we wouldn’t be debating it today because it wouldn’t exist.
Can you give some primary evidence of your claim that without martyrdom Christianity wouldn’t exist? Martyrdom didn’t spread Christianity. Preaching did.
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I don’t need to do any “heavy” research.. again, common sense tells us that Christian martyrdom happened and was key in spreading the Truth of the Gospels.
You don’t need to do heavy research into the claims you put forth? How objective of you. So…those of us who have deconverted should have done heavier research slanted in favor of our presupposition of the truth of Christianity, but believers need not do any heavy research into the claims of their chosen religion.
I’d say that those of us who have done some research and weighed the actual evidence with regard to martyrs might be a bit more objective than one who “doesn’t need to”.
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“Did Jesus command us to kill those who wouldn’t follow Him? Nope.”
Yep, he did…
“But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.” ~Jesus (Luke 19:27)
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RE: “I thought I would live on after death with loved ones in a blissful afterlife” – if you read carefully, Ratamacue, there’s nothing in the Bible about meeting loved ones and strolling hand in hand – you’re there to praise god, 24/7, and for no other purpose – walking the straight and narrow onlyu wins you the privilege of doing that for eternity.
How insecure does a spirit have to be, to need that kind of worship?
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Come to think of it, I have a dog that could listen to me say, “Good Boy!” all day long —
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Interesting point. I don’t think the picture is really that clear, though. Of course, as a Christian, I thought that for different reasons than I do now.
Perhaps I should’ve added that I also worried about the eternal fate of my “unsaved” loved ones.
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KATHY!! SO glad to see you didn’t leave us!
You know, there’s a Muslim guy named “Mo” who runs a convenience store about four miles from me, who last week, made me the most delicious hamburger I’ve ever eaten, and didn’t even once try to kill me! Following your thinking – and you KNOW I hang on your every word – I was expecting, “Follow Allah or DIE, Infidel!” – instead, I got, “Hope you like your burger!” I was a little disappointed —
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“Did Jesus command us to kill those who wouldn’t follow Him? Nope.” – No one knows, Kathy, because the people who reported on what he allegedly said, never met him (if he ever existed), and have no idea what he said, and so, neither do we, or you.
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Oh come on Arch, you know that the answer is that Mo is not a True Muslim™.
Of course I have a friend at work that I went to lunch with the other day who says he is a True Muslim™, and he drove me to the restaurant and back without a gun to my head either. In fact when I asked him about those Quran verses about killing he said that it’s a myth spread by those who want to make Islam look bad, and that anyone with objectivity would see that those passages are not meant for violence, and that the Quran is a book about peace.
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“I also worried about the eternal fate of my ‘unsaved’ loved ones.” – which is yet another thing that caused Christianity to spread, having nothing to do with the truth.
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Good point.
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A little Muslim boy shared a desk with my granddaughter in grade school last year, and didn’t try to kill her either. I can’t help wondering, once all of the “not true Muslims” are weeded out, just how many would be left?
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Ratamacue, I haven’t read the subsequent comments yet, but your comment here was great! Well said! I couldn’t agree more.
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Kathy, you’re missing the point about Hell.
It’s not that non-believers like me just “don’t like” the doctrine of Hell. We don’t believe there’s any way to match it up to a God who is supposed to be the embodiment of goodness, love, mercy, and justice. It’s a huge contradiction, which is why there are so many efforts to say “it’s like a prison locked from the inside” or “God is only giving them their wish: separation from him”, etc.
So Hell is just as much a “gun to your head” as the threat of death is in some Muslim circles.
The thing about the OT is that you continually point to Islam’s threat of violence as proof that it can’t be a true religion, but that same standard would have discounted Judaism. You’re not being consistent at all.
Look, I know you feel on the defensive here, so it’s natural for you to hang on and fight against everything we say. But really, if you’re interested in truth, as you claim, why not just step back and actually think about some of the things that have been said in these roughly 4000 comments? Why not take some time to study some of the issues a bit more deeply? There’s no shame in not being aware of this stuff — most Christians aren’t. But when it’s pointed out to you that this information is out there and you still don’t better educate yourself, well… yeah, there is shame in that.
I mean, what do you have to lose in doing more research?
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Nate – I coujld email you this, but I’d rather ask it here, in case anyone else has any input – I’m watching a video with atheist Frank Zindler, who says that Biblical scholars have determined that the book of Daniel was NOT written in the 6th century BCE, during the Babylonian captivity, but rather in the 2nd century BCE, and is therefore a forgery. Have you anything on that?
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“I mean, what do you have to lose in doing more research?”
Her unshakable faith in God? 🙂
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Hi arch,
Yep, that’s pretty much scholarly consensus — even among many Christian scholars. I actually have a number of articles (did a whole series sometime back) about the issues in Daniel, as they were the first problems in the Bible that I became aware of. I didn’t write most of these articles, but reposted them with permission.
You can find the first here
And this post is sort of an index with links to each article.
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I submit that in her mind, she risks her god determining that she has doubts, if she even considers any other point of view.
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“You know, there’s a Muslim guy named “Mo” who runs a convenience store about four miles from me, who last week, made me the most delicious hamburger I’ve ever eaten, and didn’t even once try to kill me! Following your thinking – and you KNOW I hang on your every word – I was expecting, “Follow Allah or DIE, Infidel!” – instead, I got, “Hope you like your burger!” I was a little disappointed –” – arch
that just means the liberal agenda is now entering Islam.
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And not all muslims kill people. Most, in fact, do not. I’m afraid it’s Fox News and the so called “conservatives” that spread this lie which is nothing more than scare tactics. Some muslims are very dangerous, this is true, just like many christians were also very dangerous killers.
Kathy, you’re taking a small, although admittedly very visible, portion of muslims and using that to define and condemn the whole. This is the antithesis of common sense, objectivity, or fairness.
And even so, even if you could disprove Islam or science, that is not the same as proving Christianity. You’ll need to provide evidence for your religion if you want to show it superior. Since you cannot seem to understand our points on martyrdom, and since you insist on saying that is evidence, then at least show how christian martyrdom is superior.
And you’re still asking which religion has more credentials for being true. We’ve answered and answered, and you finally said that you werent asking which had more credentials for being true in it’s divine claims – then in what way are you asking which is more true, if not in their divine claims? If you can clarify this, it may help us understand your question better.
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My guess is that she has autographed pictures of Rush Limbaugh and Bill O’Reilly hanging on her walls – “Tide comes in, tides go out – you can’t explain that!”
Yeah, Bill – we can —
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kc said:
““I understand your point, but it’s another weak one.. even though, ultimately we don’t get to choose our fate.. it’s still different from Islam.”
Kathy , look at your 2 comments above and explain how the END GAME is different ?”
Kc, I acknowledged that the “end game” is the same. But that isn’t applicable to the debate. Islam has “almost” as many followers as Christians because if people don’t follow or try to leave Islam, they are killed. It’s much easier to leave Christianity or not choose it.. you get to keep your life! Simple, basic but KEY difference.. that Nate and you and other liberals don’t want to acknowledge because of your bias against Christianity.
If the “threat” of eternal punishment is the same as the threat with Islam… why have people like Nate and others left Christianity? Not the same.
” It’s a common liberal thought process.. liberals easily feel “bullied” and intimidated by those who they feel have an advantage over them.”
” Don’t hurt your hand slapping yourself on the back, Kathy. While I feel You & Mike have definitely bullied people here, I don’t think anyone feels threatened by any advantage you feel you have over them. :-)”
See? I wasn’t even alluding to myself or Mike.. you’ve just proven my point by bringing us up as “not” intimidating you. It’s THE liberal mindset.. trust me.
“your Creator, who is infinitely more wise than all of us.. wouldn’t treat us unjustly.” How does the crime fit the time Kathy ? Sin = Eternal punishment ? ”
Turning your back on your Creator who loved you so much that He gave His Son to save you.. that deserves harsh punishment.
We can’t be with God if we haven’t been redeemed/ absolved of our MANY and often HORRIBLE sins (see above). Yes, I agree, I wish there was a “middle ground” for those who aren’t as bad as murderers etc. But the Bible tells us that all sin is equal in that it is against God who is GOOD and sinless. I admit I don’t fully understand it but my lack of full understanding of this or anything else isn’t enough to convince me that God isn’t real. And I know better than to “demand” answers, I know better than to set “conditions” with God, my Creator. And I know better than to judge Him.
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Ruth,
“Can you give some primary evidence of your claim that without martyrdom Christianity wouldn’t exist? Martyrdom didn’t spread Christianity. Preaching did.”
Martyrdom provided the bulk of the compelling evidence that caused people to believe and also
risk their lives to spread the Gospel.
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Martyrdom provided the bulk of the compelling evidence that caused people to believe and also
risk their lives to spread the Gospel.
You repeating it isn’t primary evidence. What is your source for that claim? It’s a claim I’ve never heard before. I’ve heard it is supporting evidence, but never have I heard anyone claim that without it there would be no Christianity.
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