Well, after breaking 2000 comments on the previous thread, I think it’s time to move to a new one. Feel free to continue the conversation here.
Also, I want to make a note about future posts. The tone on this blog for the last month or so has been decidedly different than what it used to be. While that’s definitely made things interesting, I’d like to move back to a tone more in line with the way things used to be. So going forward, I want the comments on all new posts to remain civil. We can all make our points, and I expect to see a wide range of opinions. But I don’t want to get into name-calling and bashing when we can’t all agree on particular issues. Let’s try to stay focused on the points and not get side-tracked with personal stuff. Let’s also keep each comment substantive so we don’t rack up so many comments in such a short period of time that it’s hard for everyone to keep track.
If you don’t feel like you can participate within those guidelines, then feel free to continue posting within this thread (and any future “Kathy” threads, if they’re needed), because I won’t be enforcing any guidelines here. But if you want to comment on any other posts, you’ll need to abide by the rules I just laid out. Otherwise, your comment will be subject to deletion, and after a warning, you might find yourself banned from at least that thread, if not the entire blog.
If there are any questions, let me know.
Thanks
Finding Truth 
Ruth,
“You don’t need to do heavy research into the claims you put forth? How objective of you. ”
Fail. Ruth, I’m right HERE.. Nate or you or anyone can EASILY give me the “evidence” that proves my beliefs aren’t correct. Nate can EASILY give me the information I’m “missing” that supposedly tells me that the disciples weren’t martyred. What “heavy research” is he talking about?? Post it HERE.. I’ll read it using the small amount of confidence I have in Nate’s objectivity in providing OBJECTIVE sources/ information.. but, that confidence is dwindling fast based on his and yours and every other atheist’s own words and actions. If you want to call me unobjective for not being willing to read every single thing biased people put before me, even though you’ve PROVEN your bias.. have fun.. it means nothing because of your obvious/ proven lack of objectivity.. so I couldn’t care less.
“I’d say that those of us who have done some research and weighed the actual evidence with regard to martyrs might be a bit more objective than one who “doesn’t need to”.””
Post it HERE Ruth.. back up your claims of “evidence”.
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Ron,
““But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.” ~Jesus (Luke 19:27)”
That was a STORY Jesus was telling.. about someone else. really??
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Rata,
“Now what if–hypothetically, say–you actually came to acknowledge that we make a good point or two, or that some of your arguments are not as compelling as you had thought. Then what?”
And I could say the same to you.. I’d easily wager that my points have been better by far over the atheist points here.. yet, no acknowledgements by you.
Your entire comment is nothing but baseless judgments. Back up your claims. Debate the actual points. I’m not interested in distorted, biased, unobjective “reasoning”.
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Arch said:
“You know, there’s a Muslim guy named “Mo” who runs a convenience store about four miles from me, who last week, made me the most delicious hamburger I’ve ever eaten, and didn’t even once try to kill me! Following your thinking – and you KNOW I hang on your every word – I was expecting, “Follow Allah or DIE, Infidel!” – instead, I got, “Hope you like your burger!” I was a little disappointed –”
I have Muslim neighbors that have been even nicer to me.. they are nice people.. what’s your point?? As usual, your “point” lacks objectivity and discernment.
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““Did Jesus command us to kill those who wouldn’t follow Him? Nope.” – No one knows, Kathy, because the people who reported on what he allegedly said, never met him (if he ever existed), and have no idea what he said, and so, neither do we, or you.”
Didn’t you just tell a story about an historian.. some “liar” who did a bunch of horrible things.. I think he lived around the same time in history… can you give your historical evidence that shows it was true? Surely you have it.. and it’s not “heresay” because you put it forth as an actual truth.. I’ll wait..
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Good point, arch. Although even if we couldn’t, it’d still be an argument from ignorance.
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Howie,
” In fact when I asked him about those Quran verses about killing he said that it’s a myth spread by those who want to make Islam look bad, and that anyone with objectivity would see that those passages are not meant for violence, and that the Quran is a book about peace.”
Your friend wasn’t telling you the truth. If he’s a “true” Muslim, he knows those verses exist.. it’s not a “myth”. No one needs to make Islam “look bad”.. the actual text does that all by itself. (Jews are “pigs” etc.).
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““I also worried about the eternal fate of my ‘unsaved’ loved ones.” – which is yet another thing that caused Christianity to spread, having nothing to do with the truth.”
Has nothing to do with why Christianity survived the persecution in the beginning to become the most followed faith.
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Nate,
“We don’t believe there’s any way to match it up to a God who is supposed to be the embodiment of goodness, love, mercy, and justice. It’s a huge contradiction,..”
What you fail to accept/ understand is that God and sin are “HUGE contradictions”.
What else is God supposed to do with those who hate Him? And who don’t care if they sin against Him?
“So Hell is just as much a “gun to your head” as the threat of death is in some Muslim circles.”
No, it’s not “just as much” a gun to your head… it’s vastly different.. Muslims LITERALLY have a gun to their head or a noose around their neck.. ask Miriam.
“The thing about the OT is that you continually point to Islam’s threat of violence as proof that it can’t be a true religion, but that same standard would have discounted Judaism. You’re not being consistent at all.”
I’ve never pointed to Islam’s threat of violence alone as proof it’s not true. It is compelling evidence along with a long list of other things.
And AGAIN, you aren’t acknowledging the factual DIFFERENCE in situations between the OT and the NT. The OT laws were temporary and for that specific group of people. It was a part of God’s plan in revealing Himself and ESTABLISHING Himself to man through the Jewish people.
“Look, I know you feel on the defensive here, so it’s natural for you to hang on and fight against everything we say. But really, if you’re interested in truth, as you claim, why not just step back and actually think about some of the things that have been said in these roughly 4000 comments? Why not take some time to study some of the issues a bit more deeply? There’s no shame in not being aware of this stuff — most Christians aren’t. But when it’s pointed out to you that this information is out there and you still don’t better educate yourself, well… yeah, there is shame in that.
I mean, what do you have to lose in doing more research?”
Nate, why do you keep making these pathetic comments? Who are you conning? ..not me, so I guess it’s Ruth, Arch, William and all the others here.
I’m not on the “defensive” .. not “hanging on” and “fighting everything we say”..
I’m CORRECTING everything YOU and others are saying here..
And, incase you haven’t heard, blogs are one of the BEST ways to do research..
Post it HERE Nate.. please “enlighten” me with all the “research” you’ve done that supposedly
proves me wrong. It would take me ALOT longer to find it all myself.. so, contrary to your incorrect assertions of me.. I couldn’t be “researching” much better than being on a blog where everyone has already done the research. But please note.. if you and Arch and others “bombard” me with links etc.. without giving me some kind of assurance that the links are credible/ unbiased, I won’t waste my time reading all of them.. be selective and give some kind of assurance of their objectivity.. that’s my criteria. My time is limited. Anyone applying objectivity will certainly understand my request.
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William..
“And not all muslims kill people. Most, in fact, do not. I’m afraid it’s Fox News and the so called “conservatives” that spread this lie which is nothing more than scare tactics. ”
Post the proof William.. I’ve never heard Fox News make this claim. This is another excellent example of LIBERALS spreading their lies and propaganda.
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William cont..
“Kathy, you’re taking a small, although admittedly very visible, portion of muslims and using that to define and condemn the whole. This is the antithesis of common sense, objectivity, or fairness. ”
Again, post the proof of this claim.. my words are all here.. so it shouldn’t be a problem.
I’ve NEVER done this. You are exhibiting typical “REVERSE IGNORANCE”.. aka LIBERAL IGNORANCE.
Honestly, liberals & common sense and objectivity don’t mix. Making a claim otherwise just further shows how delusional liberals are.
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“if people don’t follow or try to leave Islam, they are killed.” – If you really want to know the truth, Kathy – and we know you don’t – go chat with some Muslim friends of mine, who have left Islam and see if they’re dead: http://www.thinkatheist.com/group/egyptianatheists?xg_source=msg_wel_group
“Turning your back on your Creator who loved you so much that He gave His Son to save you..” – learn something about Jewish customs, Kathy – to have your sins forgiven, you sacrificed a perfect lamb to god, so the god you say loved us so much, sacrificed his son TO HIMSELF – something that was totally unnecessary, since he’s the one who made the rule in the first place. All he really had to do, was say, “Hey, Guys, you’re forgiven for being the way I made you!”
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“Martyrdom provided the bulk of the compelling evidence that caused people to believe and also risk their lives to spread the Gospel.” – then we’re talking about a religion spread by idiots. “Sam and Joe died for their religion, so I’m gonna join up so I can die too! Where do I sign? Do I get a T-shirt?“
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Regarding Matthew:
According to Heracleon, who is quoted by Clement of Alexandria, Matthew did not die a martyr, but this opinion conflicts with all other ancient testimony. Let us add, however, that the account of his martyrdom in the apocryphal Greek writings entitled “Martyrium S. Matthæi in Ponto” and published by Bonnet, “Acta apostolorum apocrypha” (Leipzig, 1898), is absolutely devoid of historic value. Lipsius holds that this “Martyrium S. Matthæi”, which contains traces of Gnosticism, must have been published in the third century.
There is a disagreement as to the place of St. Matthew’s martyrdom and the kind of torture inflicted on him, therefore it is not known whether he was burned, stoned, or beheaded. The Roman Martyrology simply says: “S. Matthæi, qui in Æthiopia prædicans martyrium passus est”. (source)
Andrew:
Reportedly martyred by crucifixion on an X-shaped cross (“St. Andrew’s cross”). According to legend, he taught a gathered crowd while on the cross and refused their offer to take him down. This information comes from the apocryphal, probably second-century Acts of Andrew. Eusebius dismissed this book as spurious and heretical (source).
Phillip:
The second-century tradition concerning him is uncertain, inasmuch as a similar tradition is recorded concerning Philip the Deacon and Evangelist — a phenomenon which must be the result of confusion caused by the existence of the two Philips. In his letter to St. Victor, written about 189-98, bishop Polycrates of Ephesus mentions among the “great lights”, whom the Lord will seek on the “last day”, “Philip, one of the Twelve Apostles, who is buried in Hieropolis with his two daughters, who grew old as virgins”, and a third daughter, who “led a life in the Holy Ghost and rests in Ephesus.” On the other hand, according to the Dialogue of Caius, directed against a Montanist named Proclus, the latter declared that “there were four prophetesses, the daughters of Philip, at Hieropolis in Asia where their and their father’s grave is still situated.” The Acts (21:8-9) does indeed mention four prophetesses, the daughters of the deacon and “Evangelist” Philip, as then living in Caesarea with their father, and Eusebius who gives the above-mentioned excerpts (Church History III.32), refers Proclus’ statement to these latter. The statement of Bishop Polycrates carries in itself more authority, but it is extraordinary that three virgin daughters of the Apostle Philip (two buried in Hieropolis) should be mentioned, and that the deacon Philip should also have four daughters, said to have been buried in Hieropolis. Here also perhaps we must suppose a confusion of the two Philips to have taken place, although it is difficult to decide which of the two, the Apostle or the deacon, was buried in Hieropolis. Many modern historians believe that it was the deacon; it is, however, possible that the Apostle was buried there and that the deacon also lived and worked there and was there buried with three of his daughters and that the latter were afterwards erroneously regarded as the children of the Apostle. The apocryphal “Acts of Philip,” which are, however purely legendary and a tissue of fables, also refer Philip’s death to Hieropolis.(source)
The Acts of Philip tells a wild tale of how both he and Bartholemew and a compatriot names Mariamme were allegedly martyred. Please not that The Acts of Philip have been labeled in the above description from the Catholic Encyclopedia as “purely legendary and a tissue of fables”. According to this Philip was angry about his persecution and called for a curse on those who did it and “And, behold, suddenly the abyss was opened, and the whole of the place in which the proconsul was sitting was swallowed up, and the whole of the temple, and the viper which they worshipped, and great crowds, and the priests of the viper, about seven thousand men, besides women and children, except where the apostles were: they remained unshaken.
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“You repeating it isn’t primary evidence.” – She don’t need no stinkin’ evidence, Ruth – haven’t you figured that out yet? It’s strictly her god’s word, in her ear and out her mouth, with nothing to slow it down.
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Bartholemew:
According to the third-century bishop Hippolytus, he was crucified in Armenia (source). A different tradition claims he was beheaded in India on the orders of King Astreges, who belonged to a demon-worshipping cult (source). Some traditions add that he was flayed alive before, or instead of, suffering either of these two fates. The New Advent encyclopedia says the manner of his death is “uncertain” (source), and adds that other than his name, “Nothing further is known of him”.
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I currently have a comment in moderation that has several links in it relating to several of the other apostles. I can keep going, and I’ve linked to The Catholic Encyclopedia, which is hardly liberal or biased in favor of atheism.
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“Post it HERE Ruth.. back up your claims of ‘evidence’” I posted a great deeal of evidence, Kathy, which you admitted you didn’t bother to read – why would Ruth expect any different treatment from one whose idea of “objectivity” consists only of information she already believes?
Oh, Ruth – feel free to copy my comment and repost it under your name, maybe she’ll read it then, but don’t count on it.
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Kathy writes (again and again):
“Back up your claims”
“Provide the evidence”
“Post the proof”
But when she is asked to do the same, what happens?
Waiting …
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Now, Kathy, may I please have that primary source for your claims about martyrdom?
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“I have Muslim neighbors that have been even nicer to me.. they are nice people.. what’s your point??” – my point – and I’m not surprised you didn’t get it – is that unlike what you said, Muslims don’t try to kill those who don’t believe in Islam – how many of your neighbors have tried to kill you?
Here’s an idea – drop in on your neighbors and tell them how wrong their religion is, and that they’re all going to hell! I would PAY to watch that!
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“Didn’t you just tell a story about an historian.. some ‘liar’ who did a bunch of horrible things.. I think he lived around the same time in history… can you give your historical evidence that shows it was true? Surely you have it.. and it’s not ‘heresay’ because you put it forth as an actual truth.. I’ll wait..” – yes, I did, and I hope you didn’t have to wait as long as I’ve had to, for you to get back to me about things I’ve asked you. That would be unbearable.
That historian was Josephus, and my historical evidence for it is in his own words, in his book, “The Jewish War, from his “The Works of Flavius Josephus” – you don’t read much, do you Kathy?
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Why are you bothering with this, Ruth, when I posted that extensive list last night which, after considerable work, she admitted she couldn’t be bothered to read?
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“my point – and I’m not surprised you didn’t get it – is that unlike what you said, Muslims don’t try to kill those who don’t believe in Islam – how many of your neighbors have tried to kill you?”
Again, Arch, prove I made that claim. I never made the claim that all Muslims do this.. I’m not surprised that when I stated that my neighbors are nice to me, that YOU didn’t get that.
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“Now, Kathy, may I please have that primary source for your claims about martyrdom?” – Ruth, she finally gave me a link to a Christian website.
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