Well, after breaking 2000 comments on the previous thread, I think it’s time to move to a new one. Feel free to continue the conversation here.
Also, I want to make a note about future posts. The tone on this blog for the last month or so has been decidedly different than what it used to be. While that’s definitely made things interesting, I’d like to move back to a tone more in line with the way things used to be. So going forward, I want the comments on all new posts to remain civil. We can all make our points, and I expect to see a wide range of opinions. But I don’t want to get into name-calling and bashing when we can’t all agree on particular issues. Let’s try to stay focused on the points and not get side-tracked with personal stuff. Let’s also keep each comment substantive so we don’t rack up so many comments in such a short period of time that it’s hard for everyone to keep track.
If you don’t feel like you can participate within those guidelines, then feel free to continue posting within this thread (and any future “Kathy” threads, if they’re needed), because I won’t be enforcing any guidelines here. But if you want to comment on any other posts, you’ll need to abide by the rules I just laid out. Otherwise, your comment will be subject to deletion, and after a warning, you might find yourself banned from at least that thread, if not the entire blog.
If there are any questions, let me know.
Thanks
Finding Truth 
“Now, Kathy, may I please have that primary source for your claims about martyrdom?”
Ruth, first, I never claimed to have any sources of the martyrdom of Jesus’ disciples. I know there is documented evidence out there from doing some research.
I had posited a question / point that no one responded to (shocking).. that shows no detailed evidence is really necessary in order to believe Jesus’ disciples were martyred.. just apply common sense.
We all know that Christians were persecuted and under threat for spreading the Gospel. There’s no real reason to NOT believe that the disciples weren’t killed for doing this since they were the ones who were the most active in spreading the Gospel after Jesus’ death. That’s enough for me.. but if you want to post any evidence that supposedly argues against this belief, go ahead.. I’ll read it.
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“Again, Arch, prove I made that claim.” – if you think I’m going to dig back through all of the garbage you’ve written since you began haunting this site, just to prove you wrong, you’re quite mistaken – you’re entirely capable of doing that all on your own —
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“Post the proof William.. I’ve never heard Fox News make this claim. This is another excellent example of LIBERALS spreading their lies and propaganda.”- kathy
Kathy, post proof Fox News didnt claim this and that you didnt hear them say it.
See how stupid that sounds? It sounds just as stupid when you’ve asked for proof that the bible wasnt from god.
“I’ve NEVER done this. You are exhibiting typical “REVERSE IGNORANCE”.. aka LIBERAL IGNORANCE.” – kathy
Kathy, you’re reverse intelligent. You have said that Muslim martyrs dont count because muslims kill people to become martyrs. You’ve said that chritianity trumps islam because christianity is peace and islam is murder.
Now, you may not have realized it, but when you toss a religion out due to the actions of a few, you are in fact tossing a religion aside due to the actions of a few. If you cant understand such a simple and basic concept, I doubt that there is anything I could say to you that you’d understand.
Now, just as many times before, you can show how christian martyrdom is superior to the others.
BUt honestly, if martyrs and believers is the apex of your “evidence” then do you think there is anything else for us to discuss?
You think I’m a reverse ignorant liberal, and I think you’re insane and/or stupid, so i’m not sure what else there is to discuss regarding martyrs and believers. I’ve asked the same questions hundreds of times without answer from you, and have literally answered and even re-listed your own questions and answers numerous times.
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“Ruth, first, I never claimed to have any sources of the martyrdom of Jesus’ disciples.” – all of that talk of how martyrdom caused the spread of Christianity, and she doesn’t even have any evidence of Yeshua’s own disciples being martyred – now THERE’S someone whose opinion I would trust!
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The problem, William, as I see it, is that at some point in time, someone told Kathy she could debate – I don’t know if it was intended as a joke, or as some kind of revenge for a wrong done, but whatever the reason, she bought it and still can’t see how totally inept she is at it.
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This presumes that one believes there actually were disciples.
Many don’t.
Furthermore, as there is no first hand evidence, no verifiable records, and almost all references are vague and have with no supporting evidence whatsoever, why should we not treat these tales as nothing but myth?
This comment ties in with every other point you have made since you began commenting. Namely, you have not been prepared to back a single claim with any evidence at all.
And yet, you have vehemently defended your position. Based on what?
Evidence? No.
Indoctrination? Yes
Faith. Yes.
You would not accept this criteria as a benchmark for any other field – and certainly not if it involved the life of your child or a serious health issue, yet you expect the entire human race to suspend every critical faculty when it comes to your god and your religion, failure to do so and you believe each non-believer will meet a despicable end to earthly life in an eternal Hell.
And you wonder why you your world view is rejected out of hand, Kathy?
You truly need to re- examine your life- priorities.
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OK, Kathy, here’s the deal – you want someone to say which religion has the greatest credibility – OK, I’ll do that – Hinduism.
Now here’s what I want you to do – take this next week, and study Hinduism in all its ramifications, then come back next Saturday, and point by point, show us why Christianity is more credible than Hinduism. But if you DON’T study Hinduism, don’t bother reporting back.
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I finally got Ruth’s earlier comment approved. She tried to post it an hour or two ago, so if you missed it, scroll back up and check it out — it’s really good.
It starts with “regarding Matthew…”
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it’s funny that kathy doesnt like liberals, and doesnt like muslims, yet the liberal muslims are the safe ones in her mind. well… i thought it was funny.
I second Arch’s suggestion.
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We all know that Christians were persecuted and under threat for spreading the Gospel. There’s no real reason to NOT believe that the disciples weren’t killed for doing this since they were the ones who were the most active in spreading the Gospel after Jesus’ death. That’s enough for me.. but if you want to post any evidence that supposedly argues against this belief, go ahead.. I’ll read it.
Yes, we do know that some Christians were persecuted. We also know that some Muslims and Jews and Christians of some sects were persecuted and killed by Christians.
My point in providing all those links was to show that I have, indeed, studied this. I have applied objectivity in doing so despite your claims to the contrary. It is of little good to continue questioning the integrity of those who actually have done some research instead of just generally putting forth your arguments.
Now, I see that your arguments are bases on your own logic and reason. I’m not saying that you are dishonest or that you are biased or that you aren’t intelligent. People look at evidence and come to conclusions based on it. And everybody doesn’t come to the same conclusion. That doesn’t imply dishonesty or failure of character.
Furthermore, I simply do not agree with your conclusions. Your evidence isn’t compelling to me.
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“Ruth, first, I never claimed to have any sources of the martyrdom of Jesus’ disciples.”
No, but you did say – a number of times – that you would get it and post it here.
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I can only imagine christian kathy’s discussion with muslim kathy..
CK: the bible is plainly superior.
MK: the koran is superior.
CK: there is factual evidence supporting the the bible, though.
MK: there is factual evidence supporting the koran.
CK: christians died for god. you cannot dispute this grand evidence.
MK: muslims died for god
CK: but muslims kill people and christians dont.
MK: those werent true muslims, the god abhors murder and the slaughter of innocents.
CK: But the koran says to kill, so it’s bad.
MK: the bible says to kill.
CK: that was the OT. it was god’d will to kill women and children back then but not now. now we know it’s not god’s will.
MK: but christians were killing people long after the OT…
CK: those werent true christians.
MK: you have a book of lies
CK: we have martyrs.
MK: so do we.
CK: well, we have jesus – nuff said.
MK: well… when we say one god, we actually mean it…
CK: well, the bible is superior…
MK: The koran is superior…
and the circle is created. I wish that circle they made together would turn into a black hole and put us all out of our misery.
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@ Kathy,
The reason you don’t have any primary resources is because there aren’t many. The only two I’ve been able to find are for the martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicita. And if you read the story of Perpetua I’m not sure she comes across as particularly rational about it. The tradition that you are holding so tightly to concerning the martyrdom of the apostles comes the Church Fathers. Of the Catholic Church. That church that you don’t trust with the original manuscripts of the books of the Bible.
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Now, I want to soften my tone a little here. Kathy, I see your perspective. The apostles as martyrs is compelling evidence to you. It is your insistence that it also be compelling evidence for everyone else or they are dishonest is what I take issue with. Objectively speaking, I don’t see how you can look at that evidence and not see how others might come to a different conclusion about it.
You’ve been saying that the reason the martyrdom of the apostles is compelling evidence is because of their circumstances and details. You don’t know those. For instance, many of the martyrs in early Christianity were put to death because they refused sacrifice to the Roman Gods. It was a requirement of citizenship as I understand it. Paul even wrote about this that as long as they weren’t worshiping other gods and they knew that God was the one true God that they could eat/do whatever and it meant nothing. But if they were offended by it then they shouldn’t. But this sacrifice was the equivalent of a tax. Had they done it they wouldn’t have been violating any commandments as long as they kept Yahweh their first God. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. It was not because they refused to recant their faith in God. And it was not because they were preaching the gospel.
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and maybe it’s worth mentioning, in regard to accepted knowledge, that Aristotle thought that if you were to drop 2 objects of differing weights from the same height, that the heaviest would fall fastest.
Aristotle was a gifted and brilliant scientist and philosopher. No one disputed him because of his credentials and because it seemed to make sense or common sense…
His position on falling things stood accepted for around 1500-2000 years until Newton proved him wrong.
As it turned out, weight didnt affect an object’s speed when falling.
So just because something is widely accepted, and widely accepted for a long time, doesn’t mean that it’s actually true.
It;s just that no one tested aristotles claims for a long time. Have we questioned the claims that we were given? have we proven all things?
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“I second Arch’s suggestion.” – Then William, I’m beggin’ya – no more responses to Kathy until she complies next Saturday! If she chooses not to explore outside her own religion, then she’s done here.
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That’s pure BS, Ruth – she provided me a link to a Christian website (what else?) that listed the disciples and their alleged deaths – I, of course, went further than that and researched other sources and found, as “Sportin’ Life” said in “Porgy and Bess: “The things that you’re li’ble to read in the Bible, they ain’t necessarily so –“
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William, you’re crackin’ me up!
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“…this sacrifice was the equivalent of a tax” – Ruth, love you like a sister, but you’re trying to use logic on someone to whom logic is a stranger.
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Ruth, love you like a sister…
Aw, Arch, that’s the nicest thing you’ve ever said to me. I thought you took me for a weakling.
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” It’s a common liberal thought process.. liberals easily feel “bullied” and intimidated by those who they feel have an advantage over them.”
” Don’t hurt your hand slapping yourself on the back, Kathy. While I feel You & Mike have definitely bullied people here, I don’t think anyone feels threatened by any advantage you feel you have over them. :-)”
“See? I wasn’t even alluding to myself or Mike.. you’ve just proven my point by bringing us up as “not” intimidating you. It’s THE liberal mindset.. trust me.”
You are disagreeing with your previous statement, Kathy !
Your first statement said, ” liberals easily feel “bullied” and intimidated ”
You current statement says, “you’ve just proven my point by bringing us up as “not” intimidating you. It’s THE liberal mindset.”
Is your point that liberals feel intimidated or not intimidated ???? 🙂
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Kathy says, ““I understand your point, but it’s another weak one.. even though, ultimately we don’t get to choose our fate.. it’s still different from Islam.”
KC says, “Kathy , look at your 2 comments above and explain how the END GAME is different ?”
Kathy says, “Kc, I acknowledged that the “end game” is the same. But that isn’t applicable to the debate.”
If the “end game” is the same, what difference does it make to be a Muslim or a Christian ????
Kathy, I believe YOU have answered the question who have repeatedly asked us for the past month.
YOUR question was, “Which religion has the best/ most compelling evidence to support it’s “truth/Truth?”
KATHY YOU just said, “”Kc, I acknowledged that the “end game” is the same.”
That means there is at least a TIE ! Game over !
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“I thought you took me for a weakling.” – you’re more apologetic than I am, but that doesn’t mean you’re weak.
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Ruth,
“My point in providing all those links was to show that I have, indeed, studied this. I have applied objectivity in doing so despite your claims to the contrary. ”
And what is your conclusion, Ruth? And did you post the evidence that supports that conclusion? Can you elaborate?
“You’ve been saying that the reason the martyrdom of the apostles is compelling evidence is because of their circumstances and details. You don’t know those. For instance, many of the martyrs in early Christianity were put to death because they refused sacrifice to the Roman Gods.”
Why did they refuse to sacrifice to the Roman Gods Ruth? Because it was against God’s commandment. They were killed for following their Christian faith. I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. You all are doing a lot of reaching in trying to argue my points.
What you posted about the disciples.. so? What was your point there?? Please clarify.
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Ruth cont..
“The tradition that you are holding so tightly to concerning the martyrdom of the apostles comes the Church Fathers. Of the Catholic Church. That church that you don’t trust with the original manuscripts of the books of the Bible.”
Ruth, I have no reason to not believe what the Christian church accepts based on the word passed down through the Bishops and other sources. You’ve posted no reason here to not believe that Jesus’ disciples weren’t martyred.
You ignored THIS point I made:
We all know that Christians were persecuted and under threat for spreading the Gospel. There’s no real reason to NOT believe that the disciples weren’t killed for doing this since they were the ones who were the most active in spreading the Gospel after Jesus’ death. That’s enough for me.. but if you want to post any evidence that supposedly argues against this belief, go ahead.. I’ll read it.
Which do you think is MORE likely… based on the undisputed history of the persecution of Christians, especially in the beginning, it’s MORE likely that they WERE martyred. There’s no reason to believe otherwise.. especially since we have the stories that tell us this. What do you expect to be different if the stories are true?? Remember.. all we have for Pilate, a Roman ruler, is one engraved stone. Not much survives after 2000 years.
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