Well, after breaking 2000 comments on the previous thread, I think it’s time to move to a new one. Feel free to continue the conversation here.
Also, I want to make a note about future posts. The tone on this blog for the last month or so has been decidedly different than what it used to be. While that’s definitely made things interesting, I’d like to move back to a tone more in line with the way things used to be. So going forward, I want the comments on all new posts to remain civil. We can all make our points, and I expect to see a wide range of opinions. But I don’t want to get into name-calling and bashing when we can’t all agree on particular issues. Let’s try to stay focused on the points and not get side-tracked with personal stuff. Let’s also keep each comment substantive so we don’t rack up so many comments in such a short period of time that it’s hard for everyone to keep track.
If you don’t feel like you can participate within those guidelines, then feel free to continue posting within this thread (and any future “Kathy” threads, if they’re needed), because I won’t be enforcing any guidelines here. But if you want to comment on any other posts, you’ll need to abide by the rules I just laid out. Otherwise, your comment will be subject to deletion, and after a warning, you might find yourself banned from at least that thread, if not the entire blog.
If there are any questions, let me know.
Thanks
Finding Truth 
Religion has caused more deaths than plagues, even the invasion of Iraq by Kathy’s hero, “W,” was intended as a modern crusade led by Little George “I trust god speaks through me” Bush.
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“Estimates of the toll taken on the Jewish communities range from 3,000 to 10,000 deaths.” – well, then according to Kathy’s own logic, that means that Judaism, which rejects Christianity, is more credible. Sorry Kath – case closed!
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“even the invasion of Iraq by Kathy’s hero, “W,” was intended as a modern crusade led by Little George “I trust god speaks through me” Bush.”
@arch
Yes, but as Hayden so graciously pointed out, George ” Dubya” Bush’s god was Dick Cheney (and his heavenly host of shareholders at Halliburton).
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I always thought of Cheney as a ventriloquist, with his hand up W’s asterisk.
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@ Arch,
You’ve said a few things like this to me, “William, sorry to say, but you’re talking to a fence post.”
It just hit me, but is this your polite and subtle way of asking me to be quiet, or are you just commenting on the futility of my engaging certain others?
I just ask because there isnt much worse than an idiot who doesnt know he’s an idiot – and I dont want to be that guy. And if you’re calling me an idiot, I do appreciate the delicate care in which you’re calling me one – but i just want to make sure.
I mean, I dont think I’m an idiot, but doesnt really prove anything does it.
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The only thing I might consider calling you, William, is paranoid – prior to your comment, I wasn’t calling you anything. Honestly.
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Ruth,
I said:
“You’ll probably respond with “I did answer”.. but you haven’t answered why you believe that “few” disciples were martyred instead of most. I gave you my reasoning for why I believe that most were martyred.. but you don’t want to do the same to back up your belief. This proves to me that you lack objectivity. So any claims of “unbiased” judgments you’ve made, that require objectivity, are claims I can’t “trust” as being objective. You’ve only convinced me of your lack of objectivity, Ruth.
And telling me that it doesn’t matter if they were martyred or not is not the issue at hand.. at this point it’s become about determining if you have any objectivity. ”
And you responded:
“I am not surprised that you would take my last comment and basically just throw it back in my face. You cannot treat the people who disagree with you like human beings. At.All. Thank you for being predictable.”
Ruth, treating others as human beings means being HONEST with them. You demand “respect” yet you don’t GIVE respect. This is typical liberal hypocrisy. Confronting you with your dishonesty is me being HONEST. I can’t help it if you are confused about what the meaning of respect is. It’s NOT lying and deceiving.. and that includes yourself.. do you respect yourself? Because either you are an outright liar to others… or you are lying to yourself! It’s one or the other.
“I’ve answered the question several times.”
To quote you.. “Thank you for being predictable”.. re: 1st line of this comment.
“I don’t know what happened to most of the disciples.”
I’ve ALREADY stated that I’m NOT asking what you “know”, Ruth! This is DISHONEST. Whether you are being dishonest with me or with yourself (and me and others reading).. it’s DISHONESTY.
“I would not bet any amount on it either way because I don’t have any amount of certainty. And I’m a gambling woman. But I don’t play the slots and I don’t play Russian Roulette. ”
Nope.. that’s another blatant dodge.. aka DISHONESTY. You can EASILY answer the question. You don’t have “certainty” that God isn’t real.. yet you have an opinion about that. Just MORE dishonesty.
“I’ll bite and play the game your way.”
It’s not a game to me.. but clearly it is to you and other atheists here. Just as I thought.
“Let’s just say that Christianity has the most evidence. It has some relics, it has some actual historical figures, and the Bible records some actual historical events and places.
All the disciples and ten thousand more were martyred.
All this is evidence that people believed that they saw a resurrected Jesus.”
Um, is this what you believe Ruth? or are you “playing a game”?? if this is not you playing a game.. you are now waaaaay ahead of any other person here.. you are the most objective person on this blog based on what you just stated. Nate couldn’t/ can’t admit this nor anyone else here.
And I guarantee you that making that statement made you feel BETTER. Hence the saying… the Truth will set you FREE!
Nate and all the others here are still in the captivity of their pride and egos.
There might be hope for you though.
I know you didn’t acknowledge that Christianity is true.. but that isn’t my goal at present time.. it’s just to help you all apply objectivity.. to be honest.
As for your other comments..
They further fulfill my prediction.. “And telling me that it doesn’t matter if they were martyred or not is not the issue at hand.”
You attempt to argue that Christian martyrdom isn’t valuable evidence of the Truth of Christianity.
1st, the crusades, as I’ve already explained, does NOT define Christianity.. the Catholic Church was NOT following Jesus’ teachings. So they do NOT represent Christianity.. and that event was an isolated time in Christian history.. again CHRISTIANS were the oppressed for MOST of it’s history.. ESPECIALLY the beginning when the disciples set out to spread the Gospel and were killed for doing so.
Atheists always love to point to the crusades.. trying to argue that that is what defines Christianity.. nope.. sorry, that just shows lack of objectivity.
And the argument about the Jews being martyred “more” than Christians.. you forget that they BOTH follow the SAME God.. the God of the Jews IS the Christian God.. their testimony only SUPPORTS the God of Christians.
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Ruth, cont..
So, to summarize, either you now acknowledge that most of the disciples were martyred or..
you’ve come up with yet another attempt to AVOID answering my question.
I’m not sure since you called our back and forth a “game”…. can you clarify?
When you said you believed a “few” were martyred.. were you mistaken?
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Kathy,
You wouldn’t know respect if it bit you on the butt.
You bypassed all the Jewish martyrs. Regardless of whose hands it was at. I wasn’t pointing to the Crusades as a black eye for the history of Christianity. I was pointing out that MANY Jews and Muslims gave their life for their Gods. MANY Jews and Muslims, rather than recant their beliefs chose to die. THAT point is completely lost on you.
And the argument about the Jews being martyred “more” than Christians.. you forget that they BOTH follow the SAME God.. the God of the Jews IS the Christian God.. their testimony only SUPPORTS the God of Christians.
You may believe that. But the Jews outright reject Christianity. I didn’t forget jack.
Um, is this what you believe Ruth? or are you “playing a game”?? if this is not you playing a game.. you are now waaaaay ahead of any other person here.. you are the most objective person on this blog based on what you just stated. Nate couldn’t/ can’t admit this nor anyone else here.
I’m agreeing with you for the sake of argument. Because I’m sick of the argument. And I’m ready to move on to phase two. Which is what?
And no, It didn’t make me feel better. Because I don’t believe that’s the truth. But I don’t think it matter is the ALL were martyred or not.
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You seem to appreciate honesty so much, Kathy, so I’ll be honest with you – you’re an idiot.
Clearly Ruth was NOT saying that thousands of Christians were martyred, she’s saying that IF that were the case, what would it matter in terms of determining if Christianity were true or not?
Some christians were martyred, reliable historians agree on that, but there is no evidence that any of the disciples were.
If you don’t get back to work, your Hinduism report will never be ready on time —
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Paranoid – why? what have you heard?
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“Nope.. that’s another blatant dodge.. aka DISHONESTY. You can EASILY answer the question. You don’t have “certainty” that God isn’t real.. yet you have an opinion about that. Just MORE dishonesty.: – kahthy
GOOD LORD, KATHY, you dont have “certainty” that god is real.
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“Atheists always love to point to the crusades.. trying to argue that that is what defines Christianity.. nope.. sorry, that just shows lack of objectivity.
And the argument about the Jews being martyred “more” than Christians.. you forget that they BOTH follow the SAME God.. the God of the Jews IS the Christian God.. their testimony only SUPPORTS the God of Christians.” – kathy
kind of like how christians love to point to suicide bombers of islam…. and you forget that christians, jews and muslims worship the same god…
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Kathy,
If you do not see how a person, looking at the evidence that we DO have, can come to the conclusion that ALL the disciples might not have been martyred then I don’t think I’m the one with the objectivity problem. You are the one who likes to “Give God and honest chance” and “give God the benefit of the doubt”, which as I said is the antithesis of any measure of objectivity.
Maybe you’re right. In fact I know you’re right. I’m biased. Biased by the evidence. Biased to skepticism. Do you even know what that means? I doubt it since you don’t know what objectivity means. Objectivity is not aka honesty. Objectivity is neutrality. Something you definitely are not. So pot, meet kettle.
And while we’re being honest, since that’s a trait you value so much; I tried to say it nicely yesterday and that didn’t get through to you. So since you’re into frankness:
If this is your attempt to “evangelize” you might want rethink your approach. Questioning people’s integrity is definitely NOT the way to go about it. If you thought that your approach of doing that would endear your form of God to anyone you are sadly mistaken. If you’ve managed to do anything here it is push me farther away. If you are a shining example of what it means to be Christian or what kind of God you serve I want no part of it. Now you might want to think about how you’re going to answer him when he asks you why you became a stumbling block. If I EVER do reconsider my position it will NOT be because of anything you have said or done here. You’ve done far more damage to your cause than any good that could come out of it.
There’s some honesty.
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I’ve ALREADY stated that I’m NOT asking what you “know”, Ruth! This is DISHONEST. Whether you are being dishonest with me or with yourself (and me and others reading).. it’s DISHONESTY.
No, you asked me what I think is most likely. I don’t have an opinion of what is most likely because, unlike you, I don’t draw conclusions on things I don’t KNOW. If I do then it’s just an opinion and not a fact. And opinions are…..
Nope.. that’s another blatant dodge.. aka DISHONESTY. You can EASILY answer the question. You don’t have “certainty” that God isn’t real.. yet you have an opinion about that. Just MORE dishonesty.
Nope…just more DISHONESTY from you. I’ve told you that I find it possible that a creator or god or gods exist. I don’t believe it’s the God of the Bible. You are trying to hang your hat on hard atheism, which is not what you’ve got here. And, as William pointed out, where is your certainty that God exists?
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Ruth,
“And while we’re being honest, since that’s a trait you value so much; I tried to say it nicely yesterday and that didn’t get through to you. So since you’re into frankness…”
I was worried by the next paragraph that you were holding back. My fears were assuaged by the end. Well-said.
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Kathy,
I’m still waiting on your list of examples of my hypocrisy. I expect quotes and citations.
If you don’t step up (or recant and apologize), I’ll just have to assume that you make libelous accusations for sport.
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@William –
Cackle! I think I may have laid an egg!
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“kind of like how christians love to point to suicide bombers of islam…. and you forget that christians, jews and muslims worship the same god…”
They do not follow the same God as Jews & Christians. Their god is a fictitious figure created by Muhammad.
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Ruth,
“Nope…just more DISHONESTY from you. I’ve told you that I find it possible that a creator or god or gods exist. I don’t believe it’s the God of the Bible. ”
So, you have an OPINION about whether the God of the Bible is real.. but you can’t come up with an opinion about the disciples martyrdom.. why is that again? Because you don’t “know”? But you just admitted you don’t know if God exists or not.. yet you also just gave an opinion on His existence.
you said: “No, you asked me what I think is most likely. I don’t have an opinion of what is most likely because, unlike you, I don’t draw conclusions on things I don’t KNOW.”
Ruth, you make no sense.. you’re trying to avoid answering my simple questions, this is dishonest and proves your lack of objectivity.
Who asked for your “conclusion”?? Not me.. my question that I’ve asked you about TEN times now is.. which do you think is most likely.. NOT what you know… NOT what your “conclusion” is.. just which do you think is most likely, based on what you do “know”… JUST LIKE when you gave an opinion about the God of the Bible being real. This really isn’t rocket science. They are simple questions… that a 1st grader could answer and with FAR less difficulty than you are having.
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Ruth cont..
“You may believe that. But the Jews outright reject Christianity. I didn’t forget jack. ”
Again.. SO?? Jewish martyrdom is for the SAME God. It’s THE point.. that the God of Christianity is REAL.. and martyrdom whether by Christians or Jews testifies to this. Again, not rocket science.
Um, is this what you believe Ruth? or are you “playing a game”??
I’m agreeing with you for the sake of argument. Because I’m sick of the argument. And I’m ready to move on to phase two. Which is what?”
So, this IS just another TACTIC to AVOID answering my simple question, just as I thought. Why is that? oooops.. ANOTHER question.. they keep adding up Ruth, just like trying to cover for a lie makes the lie and situation worse, you are only making this worse for yourself. No one here, and I acknowledge they are all liberals who are reading.. even THEY aren’t being fooled Ruth. Everyone knows what you are doing. Everyone sees your attempts to AVOID answering my simple question. This is why Nate stated that he was “not” going to debate the issue anymore in regards to my question that he never really answered. He’s counting on it just fading away and things getting back to the way they were.. when no one really questioned him.. everyone was just “nice” and agreed.. or disagreed “nicely”.. by allowing Nate to “move along” when he was backed into a corner, never confronting his dishonesty/ lack of objectivity.. again, with the idea being that it would all be forgotten eventually.
“And no, It didn’t make me feel better. Because I don’t believe that’s the truth. But I don’t think it matter is the ALL were martyred or not.”
Huh? I think you’re saying here that “it doesn’t matter” if they all were martyred? Sorry, I’ve already covered that Ruth.. that’s an attempt to divert/ avoid my question. You CAN still answer it.. but you dont’ want to.. which gives me the answer. This is such a sad display.
“Objectivity is not aka honesty. Objectivity is neutrality. Something you definitely are not. So pot, meet kettle.”
Not applying objectivity is dishonest. Applying objectivity is being honest.
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Kathy,
So glad you have time to go in circles with Ruth. If only you had time to back up your accusations, too. There’s one in particular that I’m waiting to hear about.
As i said, “I’m still waiting on your list of examples of my hypocrisy. I expect quotes and citations.
“If you don’t step up (or recant and apologize), I’ll just have to assume that you make libelous accusations for sport.”
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“Their god is a fictitious figure created by Muhammad.” – well, Kathykins, on the theory that you only apply a bandaid where the owie is, I can see what next week’s lesson needs to be. After you turn in your comprehensive report on Hinduism Saturday, you’ll need to do a similar report on the origins and concepts of Islam for the following weekend. It’ll be fun – it has flying horses in it, as opposed to talking donkeys and snakes!
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“NOT what your “conclusion” is.. just which do you think is most likely, based on what you do “know”…” – a decision as to “which do you think is most likely, based on what you do “know”… would be known as – wait for it – a “conclusion” —
You were homeschooled, weren’t you?
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“the God of Christianity is REAL.. and martyrdom whether by Christians or Jews testifies to this.“- no, it does not. You have been told by Ruth, by myself, Ron, Ratamacue, Nate, and others, that martyrdom testifies only to the strength of a belief, not to the veracity of the belief itself, yet you won’t let it go, you seem determined to force us to see things from your own, narrow, subjective viewpoint, while telling us that by not doing so, we’re not being objective.
When a particular, reliable (meaning, “not the Bible”) source relates that a given “martyr” was reported by some sources to have died in a particular fashion, but that others reported that he lived a nice long life, YOU would conclude that he was martyred, because that’s what you need to believe for your argument to be valid, but an objective person would HONESTLY say that there isn’t enough evidence to draw a conclusion either way – in short, it is not known.
You’re trying to force Ruth to draw a dishonest conclusion, and I strongly suspect that she’s not gonna do it.
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