Well, after breaking 2000 comments on the previous thread, I think it’s time to move to a new one. Feel free to continue the conversation here.
Also, I want to make a note about future posts. The tone on this blog for the last month or so has been decidedly different than what it used to be. While that’s definitely made things interesting, I’d like to move back to a tone more in line with the way things used to be. So going forward, I want the comments on all new posts to remain civil. We can all make our points, and I expect to see a wide range of opinions. But I don’t want to get into name-calling and bashing when we can’t all agree on particular issues. Let’s try to stay focused on the points and not get side-tracked with personal stuff. Let’s also keep each comment substantive so we don’t rack up so many comments in such a short period of time that it’s hard for everyone to keep track.
If you don’t feel like you can participate within those guidelines, then feel free to continue posting within this thread (and any future “Kathy” threads, if they’re needed), because I won’t be enforcing any guidelines here. But if you want to comment on any other posts, you’ll need to abide by the rules I just laid out. Otherwise, your comment will be subject to deletion, and after a warning, you might find yourself banned from at least that thread, if not the entire blog.
If there are any questions, let me know.
Thanks
Finding Truth 
I didn’t take the time to read everything said because I’m tired of wasting my time. I did catch this tidbit:
Not applying objectivity is dishonest. Applying objectivity is being honest.
Then, Kathy, you are the biggest fraud and liar here. You cannot and have not applied the slightest morsel of objectivity to your “arguments”.
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Jewish martyrdom is for the SAME God. It’s THE point.. that the God of Christianity is REAL.. and martyrdom whether by Christians or Jews testifies to this. Again, not rocket science.
Yahweh may be the root of Christianity, but just like Islam it is the fictitious extension and perversion of Judaism. Jewish martyrdom is proof of Judaism NOT Christianity. Jews outright reject the notion of a trinity as blasphemous. They are not now nor ever have been looking for the Messianic figure to be their savior and certainly not a god of any description. Jewish martyrdom in NO WAY is evidence of the Christian God.
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I’m not avoiding answering your question Kathy. I’ve answered it ALL TEN TIMES.
I don’t think that the NT nor the OT are inerrant. I don’t think that they are divine truth. I think all of it has been embellished. So, do I trust that all the disciples were martyred? No, I do not.
I’m skeptical of those claims. And I surely wish you could just for one minute not call me a liar for saying what I think is most likely. I think that most likely all of it is a bunch of bunk. I think there are grains..morsels…of truth within but on the whole the story of Yahweh AND Christ are sensationalized legends. And if that makes my not objective I’ll just be not objective. I’m good with that.
So trying to force me to say that I think ALL the disciples were martyred is just asinine on your part. I even gave you the reasons I think that. It’s possible some were and some weren’t.
It is YOUR lack of RESPECT for any other opinion that has us going in circles. I’ve passed this tree for the last time.
You have set yourself up as the judge and the jury of who is and is not objective, Kathy. You are the LEAST objective person here. So that’s simply the fox guarding the hen house. Dishonesty at it’s most DISHONEST.
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“They do not follow the same God as Jews & Christians. Their god is a fictitious figure created by Muhammad.” – kathy
fair enough, but then i guess jews and christians do not worship the same god since christians worship some dude who someone said that he said was the son of god.
and you should know that muslims worship the god of abraham, isaac and jacob….
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“Who asked for your “conclusion”?? Not me.. my question that I’ve asked you about TEN times now is.. which do you think is most likely.. NOT what you know… NOT what your “conclusion” is.. just which do you think is most likely, based on what you do “know”… JUST LIKE when you gave an opinion about the God of the Bible being real. This really isn’t rocket science. They are simple questions… that a 1st grader could answer and with FAR less difficulty than you are having.” – kathy
i dont know if this is funny or sad.
if you’re asking for what someone thinks, then a conclusion is what someone thinks after looking the evidence they’ve seen…
it’s not rocket science. a 1st grader could answer it, but I am not sure you’d understand their answer either….
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Kathy, why do you insist on these ridiculous discussions – is it only to avoid answering the questions presented to you again and again?
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Kathy: christianity is the most credentialed religion
Ruth: why do you think so?
Kathy: all the grand, clear, factual evidence.
Ruth: show the evidence
Kathy: martyrs
Ruth: I dont think martyrs proves anything
Kathy: I didnt say “proof” I said “evidence.”
Ruth: I dont think martyrs are good evidence.
Kathy: That’s because you lack objectivity.
Ruth: all religions have martyrs and many of the christian martyr stories appear to be made up.
Kathy: liar.
Ruth: here’s my sources…
Kathy: but christian martyrs are superior and point to truth, while others point to lies.
Ruth: how can you say that?
Kathy: all the grand, clear, factual evidence.
Ruth: what evidence?
Kathy: Martyrs
Ruth: ….oh, gee wiz, why didnt you say so? Of course, martyrs. PRasise jesus. there were christian martyrs, therefore, jesus flew into heaven after rising from the dead and dying for our sins. It makes so much sense now. God bless you kathy
Kathy: God bless god, Ruth. I’m just one woman – the servant of god, the sower of the dead seeds that represent the dead martyrs. I do it for them, not my own glory.
Ruth: sorry I ever doubted. Thank the lord for giving us such inarguable and factual evidence as dying people.
After william dried his tears and recommitting himself to the lord, he promised to be a devout mulsim to create as many martyrs as he could. Besides, the world is so full of wickedness and sin, that kathy’s testimony of martyrs convinced him that the lord’s work would be to eradicate those who would not submit to the god of abraham, isaac and jacob – and ishmael.
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Ruth, you said:
“So, do I trust that all the disciples were martyred? No, I do not.”
A new word! sigh.. I didn’t ask if you “trust” they were all martyred Ruth.. I asked which you thought was more likely.. you’ve already indicated that you don’t think they all were martyred.. why do YOU keep going in circles? NOW, please explain WHY you believe that I am wrong when I claim this..
“We all know that Christians were persecuted and under threat for spreading the Gospel. There’s no real reason to NOT believe that the disciples weren’t killed for doing this since they were the ones who were the most active in spreading the Gospel after Jesus’ death. That’s enough for me.. but if you want to post any evidence that supposedly argues against this belief, go ahead.. I’ll read it.”
I’ve asked you THIS “TEN TIMES” Ruth.. and you have NOT answer this.. why can’t you answer this? Please just explain WHY.. please give your evidence that argues against the belief that most of the disciples were martyred instead of a “few”. Please explain why you believe it’s only a “few”.
“I’m skeptical of those claims.”
Being skeptical doesn’t answer my question.. the EVIDENCE strongly argues that they were most likely all martyred (except for John).. telling me you are “skeptical” isn’t a valid answer all by itself.
” And I surely wish you could just for one minute not call me a liar for saying what I think is most likely.”
I’m calling your actions dishonest because you keep avoiding giving the answers.. it took forever just to get you to admit that you believe that it’s not most likely… now it’s taking FOREVER to get you to give a reasoned response as to why.. a reasoned response based on the EVIDENCE.. that COUNTERS the undisputed evidence that Christians were martyred and killed when the disciples were spreading the Gospels.
“I think that most likely all of it is a bunch of bunk. I think there are grains..morsels…of truth within but on the whole the story of Yahweh AND Christ are sensationalized legends.”
That’s FINE.. that’s your opinion.. but I don’t see WHY you believe that.. I see a lack of objectivity. Because you refuse to follow through with the specifics in order to DEFEND your beliefs.. same thing Nate has done and others here.. I get silence when I ask for specifics.. and that’s because you know you are wrong. But, this is where the real frustration lies.. you don’t change your views when you are proven wrong.. and this is DISHONEST, it’s deliberate ignorance.. and it’s due to pride and ego. At the very least, if you must stay with your beliefs that you cannot defend, you could acknowledge that you can’t answer my question.. that would go a long way. Just like Mike said to Nate.. either be objective or at least ADMIT you are biased.. (something like that). And it’s not un Christian of me to make these claims if they are true.. I’ve GIVEN my REASONS.. using your own words and actions.. that prove my accusations. If I’m wrong I WANT you to prove it to me.. I DON’T want to make false accusations Ruth.. I don’t want to be rude.. I just want honesty.. and when you accused me of making things worse by using the tactics I do… I’m GLAD you said that.. IF it is sincere.. because I don’t want to drive you away from God.. you assumed I would think that was “mean”.. but I see it as VALUABLE information. Just as when I call you all out on your lack of objectivity.. I’m not trying to be mean.. I’m trying to help you.
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I don’t want to be rude.. I just want honesty.. and when you accused me of making things worse by using the tactics I do… I’m GLAD you said that.. IF it is sincere.. because I don’t want to drive you away from God.. you assumed I would think that was “mean”.. but I see it as VALUABLE information. Just as when I call you all out on your lack of objectivity.. I’m not trying to be mean.. I’m trying to help you.
Maybe you don’t want to be rude but that’s exactly how it’s coming across. And even AFTER I’ve told you that you continue to do it anyway. You must be the biggest idiot ever.
I’m calling your actions dishonest because you keep avoiding giving the answers.. it took forever just to get you to admit that you believe that it’s not most likely… now it’s taking FOREVER to get you to give a reasoned response as to why.. a reasoned response based on the EVIDENCE.. that COUNTERS the undisputed evidence that Christians were martyred and killed when the disciples were spreading the Gospels.
There is undisputed evidence that Christians were martyred. NOT ALL the disciples. And if you cannot see how conflicting reports and sensationalized reports about their martyrdom cast doubt on the reliability of the claims then you are the one who is not using objectivity.
You have serious reading comprehension problems, Kathy. I don’t give two hoots what you think of my objectivity or lack thereof. You are NOT the arbiter of that. Not only that but the fact that you believe what you want to believe because it supports your presuppositions casts serious doubt on your own objectivity. You have repeated over and over that God should get the benefit of the doubt. That is NOT being objective.
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“A new word! sigh.. I didn’t ask if you “trust” they were all martyred Ruth.. I asked which you thought was more likely.. you’ve already indicated that you don’t think they all were martyred.. why do YOU keep going in circles? NOW, please explain WHY you believe that I am wrong when I claim this..” – kathy
Quit being an idiot. She’s answered your stupid question dozens of times, explained why she thinks what she thinks and even posted links as well as excerpts – giving actual evidence for why and how she has reached the conclusion – or thinks the way she does.
What have you done? you keep saying “martyrs and factual evidence.” Far, far less than what Ruth has provided.
and you should quit talking about objectivity because it get’s tiresome seeing you make a fool of yourself. You clearly dont know what it means or realize that you continue to show that you’re the one lacking in objectivity.
Why dont you put on your thinking cap and
1) provide why it is that you think christian martyrs are Superior to other martyrs.
2) Explain how anyone is supposed to answer your other stupid question about which religion has the most credentials – while considering your clarification that you’re not asking which is true in its divine origin claims. If they’re not true in their origin claims, how else do you mean “true.”
3) ask some other questions – ones that are hopefully good.
4) make new points – ones that hopefully make sense.
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the EVIDENCE strongly argues that they were most likely all martyred (except for John)
WHAT EVIDENCE?!? I’ve asked you to provide that and to date you have not. You even said you didn’t need to because tradition was evidence enough. If you cannot see how VASTLY STUPID that argument is this is pointless.
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But, this is where the real frustration lies.. you don’t change your views when you are proven wrong.. and this is DISHONEST, it’s deliberate ignorance.. and it’s due to pride and ego
Prove me wrong and maybe I will but as of yet you have failed miserably to do so. You have not provided any evidence other than YOUR reasoning. And stating that any other reasoning is not being objective. Here: I’ll treat you like the child you are behaving as. I’ll number them out for you.
1) The accounts themselves, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia, are spurious.
2) The spurious nature of the accounts themselves are reason enough to doubt the claims that they were even martyred.
3) The only thing I have any primary evidence for is the fact that all the disciples are dead.
4) To say that tradition holds any claim is tantamount to saying ‘legend has it’.
5) Legends grow and abound in every facet of history.
6) I have no reason to believe that legend has not infiltrated the history of the church.
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Good god, I think I just passed the same damn tree….again.
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Kathy is the only one not answering questions.
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BTW – this is the voice I hear in my head each time I read what Ark writes, which is why I say he talks funny —
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Here comes another egg, William – what are you doing, making an omelet? Cooking hint: if you add ham, it’s a Hamlet —
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“please give your evidence that argues against the belief that most of the disciples were martyred instead of a “few”” – The evidence against is, is the simple fact that there’s no evidence for it.
“the EVIDENCE strongly argues that they were most likely all martyred (except for John)..” – No, it doesn’t, and saying it over and over doesn’t make it so.
“a reasoned response based on the EVIDENCE.. that COUNTERS the undisputed evidence that Christians were martyred and killed when the disciples were spreading the Gospels.” – Whoa up there Nellie, you’re moving the goal-posts – first you asked for evidence that the disciples weren’t martyred, which you’ve now changed to simply “Christians” – everyone knows (it was in all the papers) that some Christians were killed, but whether or not any of the disciples were, is up in the air.
“you don’t change your views when you are proven wrong.. and this is DISHONEST, it’s deliberate ignorance.. and it’s due to pride and ego.” – you’ve just described yourself.
“I’m trying to help you” – Then help her by proving – with evidence – that your god is superior to the thousands of other gods that Humankind has invented over the centuries —
See, we’re trying to help you too, Kathy, by opening your eyes to other possibilities but as we’ve often said, you can lead a theist to knowledge, but you can’t make ’em think.
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Kathy,
So much for reconsidering you approach. I’m taking time out of my workday to post this comment.
Your “just” and “loving” God condemns people to an eternal hell because they don’t believe in his very existence, based on an inference that the disciples were “probably” martyred, based on there having been Christian martyrs throughout history. You fail to understand the burden of proof. You fail to provide any primary sources regarding the claims of disciples’ martyrdom. When we provide sources showing how weak and contradictory the claims of disciple martyrdom are, you fall back to belligerent accusations and “probably, because other people…”
Keep it up–you’re just convincing me of the harm that fundamentalist Christianity can do, and the need for counter-evangelism.
And I’m still waiting for proof of my (and our) hypocrisy. With citations and quotes and explanation.
Or recant and apologize.
Or let it be known that you are an unreasonable, disrespectful, libelous woman.
How Christ-like.
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And, you keep acting like people haven’t answered your questions, even after they show you how the questions are fundamentally broken, and how your “logic” does not follow, and oftentimes they’ve still answered the questions–multiple times, even.
Absolutely ridiculous. (And I’m restraining myself, here.)
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Thanks, ratamacue0.
I don’t know what more can be said here. This has gone beyond ridiculous.
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Ruth says: “This has gone beyond ridiculous.”
“It’s outrageous, egregious, preposterous.” ~ Jackie Chiles
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I see your Seinfeld and raise you Big Bang Theory:
“Ridonculous.” ~Rajesh Koothrappali
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The only left to say is “The End”. . . oops, maybe I shouldn’t use those prophetic words. . . you know, those zealous fundamentalists!!
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. . . oops, the only THING left to say (well, obviously it wasn’t!)
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“maybe I shouldn’t use those prophetic words. . .” – at least not until after the Rapture —
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