Well, after breaking 2000 comments on the previous thread, I think it’s time to move to a new one. Feel free to continue the conversation here.
Also, I want to make a note about future posts. The tone on this blog for the last month or so has been decidedly different than what it used to be. While that’s definitely made things interesting, I’d like to move back to a tone more in line with the way things used to be. So going forward, I want the comments on all new posts to remain civil. We can all make our points, and I expect to see a wide range of opinions. But I don’t want to get into name-calling and bashing when we can’t all agree on particular issues. Let’s try to stay focused on the points and not get side-tracked with personal stuff. Let’s also keep each comment substantive so we don’t rack up so many comments in such a short period of time that it’s hard for everyone to keep track.
If you don’t feel like you can participate within those guidelines, then feel free to continue posting within this thread (and any future “Kathy” threads, if they’re needed), because I won’t be enforcing any guidelines here. But if you want to comment on any other posts, you’ll need to abide by the rules I just laid out. Otherwise, your comment will be subject to deletion, and after a warning, you might find yourself banned from at least that thread, if not the entire blog.
If there are any questions, let me know.
Thanks
“I saw someone suggest that there are ‘documentary hypotheses’” – I’d go with the Catholic version, personally – if they’re going to be honest enough to admit their book isn’t inerrant, I’d take them at their word. As long as they don’t try telling you what great baby-sitters priests make.
LikeLike
“This article is interesting and shows a growing solidarity between the Christians and moderate Muslims in the Middle East.” – ruth
I’ve been to the middle east – and not the “nice parts.” I was still a chritian when i went. I was surprised to see the number of christian communities that i did, and they claimed to live in harmony with their muslim neighbors.
also, the common muslim people were among the most hospitable that I’ve ever encountered. Most of the people didnt want war or violence. they cared for their fellow man and wanted peace.
Devout muslims have scars on their foreheads from the way they pray. Everyone I met with that scar were salt of the earth caring, compassionate and loving people.
LikeLike
it helped me realize that labeling all muslims as radical murderers was similar to labeling all christians as snake handlers or indian killers.
LikeLike
@ Kathy,
if no one here has provided good evidence for their beliefs (or lack thereof) you’ve given even less.
When you ask “which religion has the most credentials for being true,” and then after numerous answers are given that do not fall where you wanted them to, you say that you weren’t asking which was “divinely true,” but then failed to explain what you meant by “true” if not in the religion’s claims of divine origin. And without offering that clarification, you still continue to claim no one has answered your question – as if it’s being avoided on purpose.
This makes you appear to be dishonestly argumentative or simply dimwitted.
You criticize others for not answering questions when they have and you have not.
You ignore questions and points presented to you but choose to argue over inconsequential issues like whether “most” or only “some” disciples were martyred, or you choose to rant about politics – you talk a lot, just without actually addressing the issues at hand.
You’ve only made me more certain of my position as well as more assured that you have no concern for truth, objectivity or reason – which is fine – you are welcome to act and believe as you will.
I’d rather you bring something new to the table though, or answer some questions presented to you, or anything other than what you’re currently doing… which is wasting time and energy.
I’ll add just 4 more questions to your growing list:
1) do you think we should believe man or god?
2) has god ever spoken to you directly, and if so, can you explain the event?
3) who told you that the bible was inspired by god?
4) you keep saying that men wrote the bible. Why do you believe those men over others (PS – if “martyrs” is your only answer, you don’t have any real evidence)?
LikeLike
I believe you, William, but when you live in a fishbowl, as our Kathy does, you only get what you’re fed.
(She really IS OURS, isn’t she? Can I take her home with me, if I promise to feed her and clean up after her –? Someone else could take her on the week-ends – Ruth?))
LikeLike
“it helped me realize that labeling all muslims as radical murderers was similar to labeling all christians as snake handlers or indian killers.” – again, I agree – stereotyping. Very early on, in my very first Psych course, we examined stereotypes. If you hold an opinion about a people, whether racial, religious, or whatever, and you actually spend the time to get to know onethat doesn’t fit the stereotype, you decide that that person is an “exception.” As you get to know more and more of them, the “exceptions” outpace the “norm,” and thus the stereotype breaks down.
“Now Junior, I ain’t gonna tell you again – quit playin’ with that rattler and come to the table, yore lunch is gettin’ cold!”
LikeLike
“I believe you, William, but when you live in a fishbowl, as our Kathy does, you only get what you’re fed.”
Yes, I believe you’re right. It took a lot for me to even begin and see the problems within my own religion… but as much as it was, it was much less than what kathy has been shown.
one of the sad things with kathy is that she realizes her stupid arguments dont hold up when they come to other religions (martyrs, age of religion, size of religion, etc), but just cannot fathom that her religion may not be true either.
She cannot seem to even comprehend the possibility that she may be wrong, or that the bible may really be just a book written and compiled by mere people.
what would it take for kathy to believe in the koran? woudl it take a completely inerrant book?Would it take iron clad and specific prophecies that have been completely and literally fulfilled? Would it take a direct (not indirect) revelation from god? Would it take internal scientific assertions that would be proven true hundreds and thousands of years after it was written?
For kathy, I imagine it would take the bible telling her that the koran should be believed.
that line of reasoning is not objective, but then neither is kathy.
LikeLike
“You ignore questions and points presented to you but choose to argue over inconsequential issues like whether ‘most’ or only ‘some’ disciples were martyred, or you choose to rant about politics – you talk a lot, just without actually addressing the issues at hand.” – somehow, she’s deluded herself into thinking that’s debating.
LikeLike
“one of the sad things with kathy is that she realizes her stupid arguments dont hold up when they come to other religions (martyrs, age of religion, size of religion, etc), but just cannot fathom that her religion may not be true either.” – we can relatively safely assume that Kathy is never going to deeply examine her position, that would show her god, telepathically, that she has doubts, and that means practicing her backstroke in a lake of fire, but the best question you asked her, was “3) who told you that the bible was inspired by god?”
If she would truly examine that, dig deep in her mind and try to recall where she first heard it, then evaluate the validity of that source, it could open the door to her recovery.
LikeLike
William’s and arch’s recent comments reminded me of this video, specifically the part starting around the 2:30 mark:
LikeLike
@Gary
I really enjoyed your comments, thanks for posting them! I hope you’ll continue to chime in here from time to time, and I’ll be checking your blog out as well. Congrats on your recent breakthroughs. It’s such a strange feeling to flip your entire worldview around and start seeing things differently, but it’s definitely rewarding. Good luck with it!
LikeLike
Excellent point in the video, Nate – too bad Kathy will never have the courage to watch it.
LikeLike
Thank you, Nate!
It is amazing to me how I spent so much time on the internet “preaching the Gospel” but never bothered to check out blogs written by skeptics until I stumbled upon Bruce Gererncser’s. I would bet that most conservative Christians would have to admit the same. Conservative Christians are so sure that Christianity is true; that there is overwhelming evidence to back it up, that the idea that someone would question this evidence is proof that the skeptic is a sinful, evil, God-hater who refuses to accept the “truth”.
My Christian readers just cannot fathom the idea that I deconverted because the evidence is overwhelming that Christianity is NOT true. They are sure that I have a grudge against God; a grudge against other Christians; or I have a secret sin that I have always wanted to indulge. The threaten me with eternal damnation over and over again, but will not give me any evidence to counter the claims of skeptics that the Bible is a collection of mostly legends and fables based on the belief system of ancient, ignorant, superstitious goat-herders.
I look forward to reading more of your blog, Nate. It is incredible how much there is to learn on the topic of How Christianity came to Exist. I believe that the internet will be the doom of orthodox religion. The days of each Christian living in his denomination’s isolated little universe are over.
LikeLike
I completely agree. I came out of it just over 4 years ago, and I felt the exact same way that you feel now. I had never been all that interested in textual criticism or any of the other fields that might have helped me sooner — I spent the majority of my time thinking and studying about doctrine. That’s where all the important stuff was anyway. After all, I’d been told by knowledgeable people whom I trusted that the evidence for the truth of the Bible was completely unassailable. No historical or archaeological evidence had ever discredited any of the Bible’s claims.
I was such a fool. I looked down on others who didn’t take eternity seriously enough to really understand what the Bible taught, yet I’d never bothered to find out if it was even legit. I like to think of myself as a rational, objective individual, but I totally blew it.
Of course, I didn’t lose all my naivete, because I thought most of my Christian friends and family would want to know this same information. I was wrong about that too. 🙂 And I often received the same kinds of accusations that you’ve been hearing.
But I agree — I think the internet has been a huge catalyst in helping people escape their little cultural bubbles. I can’t imagine how hard it would have been to do before it came around.
LikeLike
William said,
“it helped me realize that labeling all muslims as radical murderers was similar to labeling all christians as snake handlers or indian killers.”
Arch said,
” again, I agree – stereotyping. Very early on, in my very first Psych course, we examined stereotypes. If you hold an opinion about a people, whether racial, religious, or whatever, and you actually spend the time to get to know onethat doesn’t fit the stereotype, you decide that that person is an “exception.” As you get to know more and more of them, the “exceptions” outpace the “norm,” and thus the stereotype breaks down.”
Who’s claiming that all Muslims are “radical murderers”? I never did.. Christians don’t make this claim.. this is the CLASSIC ignorance of liberals/atheists that I wrote about..
LikeLike
But Kathy, it’s a standard practice of many in the right wing to discuss Islam as though it’s primarily made up of jihadists. You have done that yourself by saying that one of the main reasons one can know Islam is wrong is that it commands violence against non-believers. This may be like making blanket statements regarding Christianity as though all Christians handle snakes.
When you discuss the religion in those terms, you don’t have to say “ALL” do this or that — you’re already implying the majority.
LikeLike
“a-troubling-new-social-ill-reverse-ignorance” – I think that by now, most of us who are going to, have already read that poorly-written rant.
Interesting you should read THAT comment of mine, and not THIS one:
LikeLike
To which I would add (for all the good it will do), the science behind any of the so-called magic in either Testament.
LikeLike
“Who’s claiming that all Muslims are “radical murderers”? I never did.. Christians don’t make this claim.. this is the CLASSIC ignorance of liberals/atheists that I wrote about..” – kathy
kathy, who said that you said that?
I was sharing my own insights and experiences. it’s good to know that you agree with them, thanks.
Care to answer some questions now?
LikeLike
There are people who debate because they seek the Truth, and there are people who argue just for the sake of arguing. Once I realize that I am dealing with someone of the second category, I ignore him or her.
There are commenters on my blog who would continue to believe in the physical Resurrection of Jesus even if I were to cart out his skeleton along with rock-solid DNA verification.
LikeLike
and many, if not all, of those people would scoff at the existence of bigfoot despite the eyewitness testimonies, photos, videos, foot molds and hair samples….
why? because it’s silly.
But a guy, who’s the literal son of god, died, but rose from the dead and flew into heaven? I mean, why not believe that? It makes so much sense, i’m surprised it doesnt happen more often.
LikeLike
Nate, you said:
“But Kathy, it’s a standard practice of many in the right wing to discuss Islam as though it’s primarily made up of jihadists. ”
This just isn’t true. It might very well be what you “hear”.. because you aren’t discerning the actual words properly and you are allowing your preconceived ideas/ biases of the right wing in.. but it’s NOT what is actually being said. And this is EXACTLY my point in my article I linked above.. EXACTLY.
I challenge you to post examples that support your claim that the right wing discusses Islam as primarily being made up of jihadists.
What you are arguing is that we CAN’T address radical Islam because it will be misunderstood by people (like you).. who can’t discern what is actually being said.
And if we CAN’T address this serious threat.. HOW are we going to fight it??
You are doing EXACTLY what the radicals WANT you to do.. silence those who speak out against radical Islam. They are using your very own liberal “political correctness” to their advantage.. they are USING you.. and you don’t even realize it.
Read my article.. you are just like those two women.. this is how liberals think.. and it’s extremely destructive. You all threaten our very freedoms by helping those who want to take away our freedoms and even our lives.
LikeLike
Nate, cont..
“You have done that yourself by saying that one of the main reasons one can know Islam is wrong is that it commands violence against non-believers. This may be like making blanket statements regarding Christianity as though all Christians handle snakes.”
Wrong Nate.. me stating the TRUTH.. that Islam, in the Koran DOES command violence against non believers.. is not a claim that all Muslims are violent radicals. It’s simply a statement of truth. Again, you are insisting that the truth cannot be stated.. because people will interpret it a certain way. That’s absurd and dangerous.
Not all Muslims adhere to those teachings of violence.. I dont’ know the actual numbers.. but I can’t/ won’t lie about what Islam actually states.
“When you discuss the religion in those terms, you don’t have to say “ALL” do this or that — you’re already implying the majority.”
Nate, using the word “radical” is enough to distinguish the peaceful from the violent. Are you claiming that this isn’t enough?
LikeLike
“the Koran DOES command violence against non believers..” – How would you know, Kathy, have you read the Qur’an? Or just listened to what others tell you, like you have all other religions? You really don’t strike me as much of aa reader.
LikeLike
— OR much of a thinker.
LikeLike