Well, after breaking 2000 comments on the previous thread, I think it’s time to move to a new one. Feel free to continue the conversation here.
Also, I want to make a note about future posts. The tone on this blog for the last month or so has been decidedly different than what it used to be. While that’s definitely made things interesting, I’d like to move back to a tone more in line with the way things used to be. So going forward, I want the comments on all new posts to remain civil. We can all make our points, and I expect to see a wide range of opinions. But I don’t want to get into name-calling and bashing when we can’t all agree on particular issues. Let’s try to stay focused on the points and not get side-tracked with personal stuff. Let’s also keep each comment substantive so we don’t rack up so many comments in such a short period of time that it’s hard for everyone to keep track.
If you don’t feel like you can participate within those guidelines, then feel free to continue posting within this thread (and any future “Kathy” threads, if they’re needed), because I won’t be enforcing any guidelines here. But if you want to comment on any other posts, you’ll need to abide by the rules I just laid out. Otherwise, your comment will be subject to deletion, and after a warning, you might find yourself banned from at least that thread, if not the entire blog.
If there are any questions, let me know.
Thanks
Kathy,
if you want to get lost in these tangential issues, at least you’re not talking about what great evidence martyrs are…
where does the koran command violence? Have you read it?
And if you can find a verse, are you certain it wouldnt be like a muslim who selects a verse out of the bible where god or jesus command violence? In that case, you’d just say that they’re taking it out of context. Couldnt they say the same about whatever verse you might find in the koran to support your claim?
But really, what difference does commanded violence make? If god wanted to command his people to violent toward another wicked people, why should that bother you, since you believe in the bible?
And why don’t you answer the questions presented to you?
You can start with these – unless you’d like to get to any of the others you’ve ignored…
1) do you think we should believe man or god?
2) has god ever spoken to you directly, and if so, can you explain the event?
3) who told you that the bible was inspired by god?
4) you keep saying that men wrote the bible. Why do you believe those men over others (PS – if “martyrs” is your only answer, you don’t have any real evidence)?
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and kathy, when discussing martyrs, you said that muslims martyrs weren’t as good as christian martyrs because they blew themselves up while killing others.
I even posted a few names and incidents of some muslims who were peaceful martyrs of islam. i didnt hear you retract your earlier statement, and I believe that you even stated again muslim martyrs werent as good because of their violence… that sounds like you’re tossing them all out for the violent actions of some… did I misread or did you misspeak?
I hate to even bring this up because martyrs arent evidence in any way for the veracity of a religion.
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Somehow, Kathy came on this board with the delusion that she is a good debater. She discovered that debaters expect evidence that consists of more than feelings, intuitions, and suppositions, and was ill prepared to deal with that. She has also tried throwing the burden of proof on us, without enough debating experience to realize that the one making the positive statement carries the responsibility of defending it.
I strongly suspect that she has never actually read the Bible from beginning to end, and certainly didn’t expect that she would be dealing with those who have not only read it through multiple times, but have actually researched the veracity of much of it, and found it wanting.
With her baseless assertions, she has backed herself into corners from which she hasn’t the knowledge or ability to extricate herself, and has taken to dodging questions she can’t successfully answer, and ignoring those who ask them, something no debater can do and maintain credibility.
It angers and frustrates her that we dare to judge and question her perfect god, while lacking the open-mindedness to see that we are instead questioning the credibility of the men who told her that such a god exists – other than their Bronze- and Early Iron-Age words, ascribing agency to natural events, written in a time of ignorance as to how the physical world works, there IS no evidence for its existence.
She is largely driven by fear, fear that her path in life is one of her own choosing and that if she screws up, it’s because of a misstep that SHE made, rather than part of some Grand Plan designed by a piece of ectoplasm floating around somewhere beyond space and time. Fear that, as will we all, she will someday die and never exist again. It’s simply easier on the mind to go through life believing a fairy tale – some people haven’t the strength to do otherwise.
Has she left us? Will she be back? Does it matter?
That sounds callous and uncaring, whereas the truth is, I DO care about Kathy, but much like an addict in denial that he/she IS an addict, Kathy’s mindset can’t be changed by anything any of us have to say. Over and above her addiction – and NeuroNotes could explain that far better than I – she happens to subscribe to a religion that has a built-in failsafe, a self-described “narrow path” that must be walked in order to reach paradise. Any deviation from that path, any doubt in the presence of contrary evidence, is the result of the influence of her god’s nemesis, the Evil One – it’s a package deal that must be accepted in toto, allowing her no opportunity, for fear of loss of her immortal soul, to consider any other alternative. Just as an addict has to “bottom out” before they will be receptive to advice from others, so too, will Kathy have to come to her own realizations – there’s literally nothing we can do for her.
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Yes, arch – bang on. Your assertions remind me of a quote I read on Dan Fincke’s Noseybook page.
“Evangelicals work overtime to make believers feel like there is no viable alternative, that leaving the faith is akin to jumping off the edge of the world into a void”.
Indeed, Kathy is clinging stubbornly to her delusions because the alternative is completely unacceptable. As angry as she makes me, I still feel bad that she (and her family) are held hostage to this kind of thinking. Hats off to those of you who tried to reason with her – you’ve done a tremendous job. Let’s hope there are other ‘Kathies’ reading who DO think.
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Kathy and many other conservative Christians cannot look at the evidence with an open mind because “opening your mind” is an invitation to “Satan”, so they continue to regurgitate the same lame arguments even if they are not credible. They keep telling themselves, “It MUST be true, it MUST be true, …”
They will even resort to saying this: “I’ve got you! I win! YOU cannot prove that God does NOT exist!” To which I respond, “No, I can’t. But you cannot prove that Santa Claus does not exist. And what does that prove? Answer: nothing.”
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“Let’s hope there are other ‘Kathies’ reading who DO think.” – I DO know that our membership, Carmen, was 274 when this began, and stands at 294 now, and since not a lot of us were actively commenting here, SOMEbody was quietly listening.
I’d like to say I hope that some of us produced some convincing evidence for those unseen who might be interested, but I strongly believe that the greatest evidence was provided by Kathy herself, as she flailed and ranted and raved – I don’t see how any Christian/Theist viewers could possibly avoid asking themselves, “Is THAT me? Is THAT how I sound to others?“
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“They keep telling themselves, ‘It MUST be true, it MUST be true, …’”
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Arch, you’ve failed miserably in defending your chosen beliefs.. so all you have left to do is attack me personally. This, again, is a very common liberal tactic. You think that you can fool readers into believing that you’ve won our debates by your deceptive words and dishonest claims but those who are able to apply objectivity and discern the facts won’t be fooled. For the others, they’ve already fooled themselves (just like you), so you’ve made no real accomplishment. You’re just making yourself look silly. You should follow Nate’s example and just say nothing.
William, you said:
“and kathy, when discussing martyrs, you said that muslims martyrs weren’t as good as christian martyrs because they blew themselves up while killing others.
I even posted a few names and incidents of some muslims who were peaceful martyrs of islam. i didnt hear you retract your earlier statement, and I believe that you even stated again muslim martyrs werent as good because of their violence… that sounds like you’re tossing them all out for the violent actions of some… did I misread or did you misspeak?”
William, this is why I’ve been ignoring your comments.. you can’t seem to understand the concept of assessing the whole.. as in “overall”.. overall, Christian martyrs speak volumes for the truth of Christianity.. Muslim “martyrs” don’t.. because they take the lives of others and also themselves.. and this IS what is commanded in the very teachings of their book. That a few (by comparison) might have been killed by others doesn’t surpass Christian martyrdom.. they are the minority.. the fringe.. I don’t understand what I’m supposed to “retract”.. you just don’t get it.
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I just challenge ALL of you to use my OWN words.. give actual examples to back up your supposedly “objective” “assessments” of me and my beliefs. Just making statements based on nothing but your own integrity is pointless..it fails.. because all of you have proven your LACK of objectivity and honesty.
You all can’t seem to understand this. Just like the boy who cried wolf.. no one believes him because he’s proven his dishonesty. But you all are still out there “crying wolf”.. and it would be funny if it weren’t out of such utter desperation.
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“William, this is why I’ve been ignoring your comments.. you can’t seem to understand the concept of assessing the whole.. as in “overall”.. overall, Christian martyrs speak volumes for the truth of Christianity.. Muslim “martyrs” don’t.. because they take the lives of others and also themselves.. and this IS what is commanded in the very teachings of their book. That a few (by comparison) might have been killed by others doesn’t surpass Christian martyrdom.. they are the minority.. the fringe.. I don’t understand what I’m supposed to “retract”.. you just don’t get it.” – kathy
and how am i supposed to “get it” when you wont provide any evidence, but just only claim, “Christian martyrs speak volumes for the truth of Christianity.”
again, please show how christian martyrs speak volumes. Show how they’re better than other martyrs (and again, there a plenty to choose from beyond muslims), and please show how killing people is wrong now, but was okay once upon a time.
and will you answer these?
1) do you think we should believe man or god?
2) has god ever spoken to you directly, and if so, can you explain the event?
3) who told you that the bible was inspired by god?
4) you keep saying that men wrote the bible. Why do you believe those men over others (PS – if “martyrs” is your only answer, you don’t have any real evidence)?
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I challenge you to quit dodging and answer some questions, kathy.
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I challenge you to answer:
when did you become a Christian?
What type of christian?
and what made you believe? was it martyrs or something else? can/will you share?
I just dont find martyrs convincing of anything other than the the martyr’s devotion.
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I” just challenge ALL of you to use my OWN words.. give actual examples to back up your supposedly “objective” “assessments” of me and my beliefs. Just making statements based on nothing but your own integrity is pointless..it fails.. because all of you have proven your LACK of objectivity and honesty.”
well I challenge you to use my OWN words… give actual examples to back up your supposedly “objective assessments” of me, my beliefs and where i lack objectivity and honesty.
…or just get back on point and start answering questions…
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“I just challenge ALL of you to use my OWN words.. give actual examples to back up your supposedly “objective” “assessments” of me and my beliefs…” – kathy
before I go cutting and pasting, i wanted to see if we were even at odds on this.
I think you believe martyrs are great evidence for Christianity.
I think you think tyre was forever destroyed and has never been rebuilt.
I think you think that muslim martyrs dont count as evidence because the radical muslim martyrs are violent and you think that voids them all.
I think you think witches worship the devil – and therefore do not count.
I think you think the koran is lies while the bible is truth.
I think the only religious book you’ve read was the bible, and I think you read it while always “knowing” it was true.
I dont think you’ve ever read any other religious text, but even so, already “know” they’re false…
are these correct or incorrect?
and other option is for you to clarify what you believe and why you believe it. Earlier you said that you never said “all” muslims were violent, but then you said that “all” muslim martyrs were voided because of the violent ones – thanks for the clarification, but i think it’s an argument solely on semantics.
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“those who are able to apply objectivity and discern the facts won’t be fooled.” – What facts? You’ve given none, and everyone can see that.
“What don’t I have evidence for?? Please be specific“:
1. The existence of a god named Yahweh
2. The existence of ANY god or gods
3. The existence of Yeshua, his life, death and resurrection
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William,
I get the impression that Kathy is an evangelical. I was once in this branch of Christianity. They believe that one can personally experience God in your heart, and they believe that is all the evidence they need to know that God exists and that the Bible is true. They also believe that the reason why you and every other non-believer cannot see the “truth” is because Satan has blinded you to the truth. If you will just repent of your sins and ask Jesus into your heart to be your Lord and Savior, the “truth” will immediately be revealed to you by God, and you will believe as Kathy believes.
Who can reason with someone who believes that the warm, fuzzy feeling inside their “heart” is indisputable “evidence”?
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And I just challenge YOU to provide evidence for these three simple issues – then we’ll have all of the “examples” we need:
1. The existence of a god named Yahweh
2. The existence of ANY god or gods
3. The existence of Yeshua, his life, death and resurrection
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Kathy, go to a mirror and look directly at yourself and repeat these words.
Just making statements based on nothing but your own integrity is pointless..it fails.. because … you have proven your LACK of objectivity and honesty.
Gary, you are sooooo right! Been there, done that.
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I’d really like for kathy to explain her own position.
I’d like for her to answer questions and present evidence for her claims if if she insists others should believe them.
I think she should do this or go away. If there’s nothing new, there’s nothing else to talk about I think.
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Hmm, a Kathy-free day – I’ve bound myself trying to remember what that was like. If Kathy knew how to actually debate, and realized that actual evidence was part of the process, I wouldn’t mind her being here, otherwise, we slide into being little more than a social club, which isn’t a BAD thing, but doesn’t necessarily involve a lot of thought.
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Nate,
a question has been bugging me lately today
what were some of the things that changed your mind about deism?
I remember reading that for a time you looked into deism, why are you no longer a deist?
Hope your going well, Ryan 🙂
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Hi Ryan,
Sorry it’s taken me a day or two to get back to you.
I still have some sympathy for deism, because I understand the draw of the argument from design, first cause, etc. The reason I could no longer call myself a deist came from two different angles.
First, I no longer held any belief at all in the Christian god, yet that was still the impression of “God” that I held on to, since it’s so deeply rooted in me. To call myself a deist meant that I believed in some kind of God, but the only one I could picture was one I adamantly did not believe in. So I found it hard to picture what/who this God might be. Should I pray to it? Did it have any particular feelings about me? Did it want or expect anything from mankind? Did it care whether or not I believed in it?
I don’t know if that’s just a limitation of my imagination or what, but it made it very hard for me to say I believed in an entity that I knew nothing about.
Secondly, Richard Dawkins laid out the point in his book The God Delusion that we know from evolution that complex things can be formed from simpler things. But we have no evidence of a complex thing suddenly coming into existence on its own. While our universe is complex, and while it’s still a mystery that anything at all exists, does it really help explain our existence by positing the existence of a being complex enough to create all of this? Dawkins argued that such a being would likely be more complex than his creation, and I tend to agree.
So once deism was robbed of its explanatory power, and since I had no concept of what a deistic god would be anyway, I felt that it wasn’t accurate to really say I believed in any god.
In the same book, Dawkins also laid out a 7 point scale of belief — a firmly convinced theist would rate a 1 and a die-hard, strong atheist would rate a 7. I could see that I already ranked a 6, even at that time, which was essentially “agnostic atheist.” In other words, I don’t believe any one can ever really know that there’s no such thing as a god, but I also haven’t seen enough evidence to make me believe one exists.
Anyway, I’ve been doing well — hope you have too!
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A well-reasoned response, Nate. Personally, I can’t accept Deism (despite the fact that my dogtags read “Deist’ in the Army – “Atheist,’ in those days, could be hazardous to your health), or “the draw of the argument from design, first cause, etc.,” as I can’t accept magic. However, I am me, and you are you, and I can’t reasonably expect us to think alike.
BTW – I think this thread is dead.
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Finally! 😉
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Your ratings leaped exponentially and you gained 20 new subscribers. Still, you DID invite her, which begs the question, WHAT WERE YOU THINKING!!!!?
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