Well, after breaking 2000 comments on the previous thread, I think it’s time to move to a new one. Feel free to continue the conversation here.
Also, I want to make a note about future posts. The tone on this blog for the last month or so has been decidedly different than what it used to be. While that’s definitely made things interesting, I’d like to move back to a tone more in line with the way things used to be. So going forward, I want the comments on all new posts to remain civil. We can all make our points, and I expect to see a wide range of opinions. But I don’t want to get into name-calling and bashing when we can’t all agree on particular issues. Let’s try to stay focused on the points and not get side-tracked with personal stuff. Let’s also keep each comment substantive so we don’t rack up so many comments in such a short period of time that it’s hard for everyone to keep track.
If you don’t feel like you can participate within those guidelines, then feel free to continue posting within this thread (and any future “Kathy” threads, if they’re needed), because I won’t be enforcing any guidelines here. But if you want to comment on any other posts, you’ll need to abide by the rules I just laid out. Otherwise, your comment will be subject to deletion, and after a warning, you might find yourself banned from at least that thread, if not the entire blog.
If there are any questions, let me know.
Thanks
Hey, I used to be a Christian too 😛
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Nobody’s perfect.
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Thanks for explaining your thinking behind this Nate,
And I agree with Arch that I think this thread is winding down 🙂
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Nitpick: it doesn’t beg the question; it raises it.
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Nate, I have to say that your explanation to Portal felt extremely lacking.. after all of these comments I still don’t know what your argument is to justify dismissing Jesus and what He did for you. I’m basing this on the evidence we DO have concerning Jesus. You nor anyone here has been able to adequately argue away that evidence.
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Hi Kathy,
My response to portal was about why I stopped identifying as a deist — I had stopped believing in Christianity sometime before. That’s why my reply to him had nothing to do with Christianity. Most of the other posts in my blog look at aspects of Christianity and why I find them lacking.
You’re welcome to dig into those further and comment there, if you like, but I won’t repeat them here, especially since it would be very hard to condense them and we’re already nearing 1000 comments on this post.
Thanks
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“I still don’t know what your argument is to justify dismissing Jesus and what He did for you” – you must mean what four unnamed men SAY he did for him —
Still waiting for the following evidence, Kathy:
1. The existence of a god named Yahweh
2. The existence of ANY god or gods
3. The existence of Yeshua, his life, death and resurrection
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You’ve been given tons of evidence Arch. And very little of it has been reasonably argued against.
Existence is evidence for a Creator.. and the Bible is evidence for God.
Again, there is no other reasonable explanation. Anyone who calls himself an atheist is also
admitting that he/she lacks objectivity. Actually, that should be the definition of an atheist.. “one who lacks objectivity”.
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“…the Bible is evidence for God” – Actually, the Bible is only evidence that superstitious, Bronze-Age men had vivid imaginations.
You, on the other hand Kathy, have given absolutely no evidence of anything.
We’re still needing evidence for:
1. The existence of a god named Yahweh
2. The existence of ANY god or gods
3. The existence of Yeshua, his life, death and resurrection
Please provide this, or admit that you have none, and slink off into the obscurity that you so richly deserve.
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Kathy, this statement shows exactly why what I said the other day was no lie at all. It looks pretty clear that you had all atheists judged from the beginning as Zoe had said. This was the whole point of what she had written and what I had agreed to. There is no chance for a true discussion or dialogue with this attitude you have. I saw this pretty quickly when you first came to Nate’s blog and you were saying things like “I know atheists (or liberals) more than they know themselves”. Again, judged from the beginning.
Perhaps your words mean something totally different from the way they read, but it just doesn’t look that way. I truly felt that what Zoe had written the other day made sense. Your claims of lying are all over the place and so abnormal that it looks impossible to have any reasonable kind of conversation with you about this subject. I believe this is why you get the impression that atheists don’t want to debate. There are atheists debates strewn all over you-tube showing that this is completely false. The impression you are getting is very likely because atheists that you approach very quickly realize what Zoe had written and then make the wise decision to spend their time in more fruitful conversations.
You may want to consider a less abusive and judgmental approach in your evangelism. I realize you feel that your approach is totally justified, but maybe it would be worth your while to do some research on the approaches that other evangelicals (like Gary Habermas for example) are taking in their evangelistic efforts.
Best of luck to you.
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Kathy,I have no idea who told you could debate, but you can’t – you have no idea what debating is all about, as it requires presenting evidence, and you’ve presented none. You’ve claimed the Bible, written by unknown, superstitious, Bronze-Age priests, are evidence for a god and the creation of the entire universe, and that four, unnamed, uncredentialed authors, were evidence that Yeshua lived, died, and lived again.
None of that is viable evidence, any more than there is evidence for Cinderella or Goldilocks.
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Howie,
“Anyone who calls himself an atheist is also admitting that he/she lacks objectivity.”
I state this not because I’m judging blindly but because I have the evidence to back it up.
Atheists claim God doesn’t exist.. yet they have no evidence for this claim.. NONE. If “atheists” are honest and objective, they will claim that they don’t *think* God exists.. but flat out stating that He doesn’t shows a blatant lack of objectivity… because, again, there is ZERO evidence to support this.. and even worse.. there’s much evidence to suggest He DOES exist. So, while you and others keep accusing me of unfairly judging you/ atheists, I don’t agree.. my judgment is backed up by the facts. Atheists are people who cannot be objective on this issue of God’s existence.
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Arch, again,.. look up the word “evidence”.. it seems you STILL don’t know what it means.
Not only is there evidence, there is COMPELLING evidence for the TRUTH of the Bible.. and you’ve been given a great deal of it here on this blog. You just choose to ignore it, like every other atheist. And again, I should remind you (all).. “ignore” is the root word for “IGNORANCE”.
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Kathy, I don’t think people here are saying they “know” that God does not exist. That’s not the impression I get from most people. I think some people are instead saying they don’t know God exists.
Am I making sense?
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Are you still stating compelling evidence, Kathy?
I shall ask again, for my own benefit as I haven’t the stamina to trawl through your comments.
Please, list five examples of biblical claims which pertain to your religion/faith where there is compelling evidence. Just five.
Are you able to do that?
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Kathy,
No one here has said that they know there is no God. I know that I, myself, have said on at least a couple of occasions that I’m an agnostic atheist; meaning I don’t have knowledge. I can’t know that a god doesn’t exist. I don’t *think*, even if there is a god, it’s the one the Bible talks about.
We’ve all asked for evidence. The only evidence you’ve provided is existence and the Bible. People who are skeptical of the Bible aren’t going to take the Bible as evidence of itself. And even those who are skeptical do not claim certain knowledge of the existence of a deity.
But even when we’ve said what we think you claim that we’re not objective. That we lack honesty. Anything short of proclaiming that Jesus is Lord is dishonesty in your narrow mind.
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So prove that he/she/it does exist, Kathy, and when you’ve done that, prove that it’s Yahweh, and not some other god, that’s all we’ve ever really asked, yet in more than a month, you haven’t managed to pull that simple task off.
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Kathy, there is ample evidence that Moses did not write the first five books of the Bible, that has already been presented to you, and in fact, there is no evidence that Moses, Abe, Isaac, Joseph or Jacob ever existed. The four anonymous men who wrote of Yeshua, never met him nor witnessed any of the events they wrote about – how much evidence needs to pile up before you realize that your holy book is a crock?
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Kathy says: “Atheists claim God doesn’t exist”
Atheism – disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
As for empirical evidence (as opposed to hearsay, and rationalizations and personal opinions/feelings) for the existence of gods: If there actually were some I’d still be a believer, wouldn’t I?
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Ruth, think about it logically – I think it’s safe to assume that Kathy won’t – if she chooses to believe that the fact of our existence is proof that we were created by a creator, then it follows, ipso facto, that if such a creator exists, the fact of his/her/its existence is proof that he/she/it was created by a creator, ad infinitum.
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Ron,
“Atheism – disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.”
How is this different from “agnostic”?
“As for empirical evidence (as opposed to hearsay, and rationalizations and personal opinions/feelings) for the existence of gods: If there actually were some I’d still be a believer, wouldn’t I?”
So, this means you don’t accept anything that doesn’t have empirical proof then??
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Ark,
I’ve already listed the evidence you request.. REPEATEDLY.. why should I do it again, so you can ignore it AGAIN??
Certainly you are “able” to understand this?
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Portal,
“Kathy, I don’t think people here are saying they “know” that God does not exist. That’s not the impression I get from most people. I think some people are instead saying they don’t know God exists.
Am I making sense?”
You are describing agnostics.. I’m referring to atheists.
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Ruth,
“We’ve all asked for evidence. The only evidence you’ve provided is existence and the Bible. People who are skeptical of the Bible aren’t going to take the Bible as evidence of itself. ”
Ruth, I’ve never asked for you to take the Bible “itself” as evidence… the evidence I argue for includes outside sources in combination with the Bible… things that CORROBORATE the Bible.. I don’t know why you can’t seem to understand this.
“And even those who are skeptical do not claim certain knowledge of the existence of a deity.”
ok.. so then I’m not referring to those people. 🙂
“But even when we’ve said what we think you claim that we’re not objective. That we lack honesty. Anything short of proclaiming that Jesus is Lord is dishonesty in your narrow mind.”
This is more dishonesty Ruth.. again, I’ve never made this claim based on simple rejection.. I’ve given the evidence and you haven’t successfully argued against it.. and THAT’S when I make the claims I do. It’s all here.. go back and read it OBJECTIVELY.. not with bias or your “blinders” on.
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I’m saying that there’s no evidence that a god or gods exist, and that you’ve failed miserably to produce any.
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