Well, after breaking 2000 comments on the previous thread, I think it’s time to move to a new one. Feel free to continue the conversation here.
Also, I want to make a note about future posts. The tone on this blog for the last month or so has been decidedly different than what it used to be. While that’s definitely made things interesting, I’d like to move back to a tone more in line with the way things used to be. So going forward, I want the comments on all new posts to remain civil. We can all make our points, and I expect to see a wide range of opinions. But I don’t want to get into name-calling and bashing when we can’t all agree on particular issues. Let’s try to stay focused on the points and not get side-tracked with personal stuff. Let’s also keep each comment substantive so we don’t rack up so many comments in such a short period of time that it’s hard for everyone to keep track.
If you don’t feel like you can participate within those guidelines, then feel free to continue posting within this thread (and any future “Kathy” threads, if they’re needed), because I won’t be enforcing any guidelines here. But if you want to comment on any other posts, you’ll need to abide by the rules I just laid out. Otherwise, your comment will be subject to deletion, and after a warning, you might find yourself banned from at least that thread, if not the entire blog.
If there are any questions, let me know.
Thanks
I’ve given the evidence and you haven’t successfully argued against it
You haven’t given any evidence. If you did I missed it. What was your evidence? Have you given any primary resources? I apologize if you’ve given them and I missed them. What am I trying to successfully argue against here?
You have no idea what an atheist really is, Kathy. And even though it’s been explained to you – in this thread even – you still have no idea. Go back and read it again. With objectivity this time.
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“…the evidence I argue for includes outside sources in combination with the Bible… things that CORROBORATE the Bible..” – Who are these “outside sources”? And if you claim “martyrs,” we’ve already shown you that martyrs are only evidence of the degree of their belief, when faced with the superstitious belief that they could burn forever in a lake of fire if they dared deny their belief, and has no bearing on the actual validity of the subject of their belief, only of the degree to which, in their superstitious, science-less world, they believed it.
For some reason, you can’t see the difference, which I can only chalk up to your bias.
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Kathy will never accept any argument or evidence that her belief system is false until she is willing to consider the possibility that it MIGHT be false. As a former fundamentalist/evangelical myself, I was never able to really evaluate the evidence that skeptics presented to me until I was ready to look at it with an open, unbiased mind.
If you believe that it is impossible for your supernatural beliefs to be wrong, no logical, reasonable, and even physical evidence in the world will change your mind.
Kathy’s evidence is in her “heart” and no one will ever prove her heart wrong.
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“Objectivity” is a word, Ruth, that she knows only how to parrot – it’s actual meaning is entirely lost on her. Objectivity, to her, means when you agree with her, you’re being objective, when you don’t, you aren’t.
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Kathy, I don’t know if anyone has already answered this, but agnosticism is believing that it’s impossible to know if God exists our not. Atheism is simply being unconvinced by any claims of a deity. One has to do with knowledge, and one has to do with belief.
There are very few people who are adamantly certain that no gods exist.
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Existence is evidence for a Creator.. and the Bible is evidence for God.–Kathy
Once again … definition of evidence: Your basis for belief or disbelief; knowledge on which to base belief.
The bible is just a BOOK. It has no special powers. It is just words on a page. It is a STORY about people who believed in a god. It is evidence for “God” only to the extent that a person believes it is
And existence is NOT … I repeat, NOT … evidence for a creator … UNLESS you believe it is.
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I’m adamantly certain that I’ve seen no evidence for any.
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Then I must repeat what I said earlier, and the logic is infallible – if “Existence is evidence for a Creator,” as per Kathy herself, then the existence of a god is evidence that that that god had a creator – anything less is Special Pleading.
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BINGO!
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If we can have infinite regression (you’ll probably need to look that up, Kathy) when it comes to gods, and by Kathy’s own definition, we can, then we can also have infinite regression when it comes to universes, or pretty much anything else. Thank you for opening up that possibility for us, Kathy – you’re a credit to your religion.
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To that extent you’re right Kathy – in that instance, existence IS proof of creation, and your god DOES exist – and as the video suggests, which in your “open-mindedness” you doubtless declined to watch – we created him, or at least our superstitious, science-less ancestors did, thousands of years ago, in their effort to offer an explanation as to why we’re here – an explanation that has been revised multiple times, to the extent that the magic of gods is no longer necessary, as we’re discovering that there are natural causes for everything, and we’re getting closer and closer to learning exactly which natural forces were behind the beginning of the universe, and the causes of life. It’s time to put aside childish things.
One day, you may be able to do that yourself, I hope so, for your daughter’s sake – as it stands, she will grow up in a world where she’ll be laughed at for believing that the universe was created in six days, and that women were made from the rib of a man – I was, and I know how that feels; I wouldn’t wish it on her.
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To clarify..
MOST atheists claim God does NOT exist.. but when confronted with their lack of evidence they THEN change their position and claim that God “could” exist.. but then they always add that it’s a very small “chance”. Which again, when confronted, they fail a 2nd time.. because the evidence strongly suggests that it’s more likely that God exists than not.
Again, based on the empirical proof we have.. it’s 50/50 but based on the actual evidence.. it’s actually more like 99/1 that God exists.. even though I’m not even sure what the 1% argument is.. because again there is no evidence that God doesn’t exist.
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“…there is no evidence that God doesn’t exist. – there is no evidence that one does. Something is considered not to exist until there is proof that it does, and you’ve offered none, other than existence, which doesn’t prove that a supernatural, magical being had anything to do with it. And as I’ve mentioned, if existence implied a creator, then if your god existed, by your own definition, he would have had to have one – you can’t have it both ways. You’ve defeated your own argument, it’s time to slink away with your tail between your legs.
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Arch, existence strongly suggests a Creator.. especially when the existence is so complex. Yes, atheists who need to deny God, came up with an explanation that didn’t involve a Creator, to explain the complexity, but their explanation is extremely faulty… it leaves unanswered the ultimate question of the CAUSE of existence.. but not just “unanswered”.. but unPOSITED.. not even an IDEA of 1st cause. Yet, STILL not enough to convince the determined atheist.
Their explanation is a “way out”.. and nothing more. No atheist yet has been able to explain how the process of evolution disproves a Creator.. because it doesn’t, in any way.
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“Arch, existence strongly suggests a Creator..” – not arguing with you Kathy, just adding that by your own definition, if your god exists, he/she/it requires a creator. Who do you think that might be. I think it’s us.
You know, you might want to enroll in a couple of college courses in debate, finish those, learning what evidence means, then drop back in and try it again —
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I don’t dislike you Kathy, I truly don’t. I dislike your attitude, and your closed-mindedness, and your way of treating people who don’t agree with you, but that’s not YOU, they’re merely traits of yours, which you can change. And they’re very un-Christian.
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arch,
I’m inclined to disagree with you on that part.
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Sooner or later, Ratamacue, EVERYone disagree with me about SOMEthing – you get used to it, no offense taken.
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Haha. 🙂
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Nate,
Over the weekend I was thinking about how people seem to try and solve things or figure things out.
We see something happen, like an apple fall out of a tree, we might surmise that either the apple was ripe and it was its time to fall, or maybe the wind was blowing hard and that caused it to fall, or maybe a cat was in the tree and it made the apple fall…
With little things we can typically find a rational explanation for events that dont require an understanding of calculus or intricately advanced physical laws and principles. But the more complex the event we witness, we become less able to easily define the “why” or “how” behind it in physical terms – yet we still have this inherent compulsion to give a “why” or a “how”.
I think this is why celestial orbits, hurricanes, earthquakes, lightning and thunder and whatever else were once attributed to god – it was giving a “why” and “how” to something people witnessed but had no other means to explain. “god” was an explanation. As our understanding of math and science improved, we saw the real “how” and “why” behind events like those.
So I dont think that “god” is ingrained in us because we’re spiritual, but rather because a “super being” is an easy answer for the “hows” and “whys” we arent able to answer right away.
Anyways, just a thought.
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William, it’s true that people want explanations for things – it’s the way humans are, I think. Since I’ve wrestled with the deconversion process in just the last couple of years, I have read many books, articles, blogs – you name it – to work out the whole ‘god’ question. What I have realized about myself is that I don’t need an explanation about where we came from and if there was a ‘creator’ or not. What I DO care about, however, is where we are all going in this human ‘race’. With finite resources and ecological and environmental challenges galore, I think we all need to be working together to figure out how we can sustain life on this planet realistically.
One of the things I am absolutely convinced about is this – belief in the supernatural is getting us nowhere. Our future is not written in the bible or any other mythological text. The thinking that ‘god will fix everything’ is, at best, wishful thinking and, at worst, completely irresponsible.
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Hi Kathy,
You said
“Ruth, I’ve never asked for you to take the Bible “itself” as evidence… the evidence I argue for includes outside sources in combination with the Bible… things that CORROBORATE the Bible.. I don’t know why you can’t seem to understand this.”
And You did say this earlier to Arch:
“Existence is evidence for a Creator.. and the Bible is evidence for God.”
This is one of things that makes our discussions a little difficult. You’ll say something, and then say that you never said that thing… It’s just a little cumbersome, and I think gets in the way a little.
You also said,
“MOST atheists claim God does NOT exist.. but when confronted with their lack of evidence they THEN change their position and claim that God “could” exist.. but then they always add that it’s a very small “chance”. Which again, when confronted, they fail a 2nd time.. because the evidence strongly suggests that it’s more likely that God exists than not.”
I just wanted to say that I don’t care what most atheists do, or say. If you’re talking to most atheists then I suppose that’s fine, but if you’re talking to us, why don’t you stick with what we’re talking about?
I could make claims about “most Christians” but if you don’t believe in what “most Christians” did, would it make any sense to try and debate you over something you don’t believe?
You said this too,
“Arch, existence strongly suggests a Creator.. especially when the existence is so complex. Yes, atheists who need to deny God, came up with an explanation that didn’t involve a Creator, to explain the complexity, but their explanation is extremely faulty… it leaves unanswered the ultimate question of the CAUSE of existence.. but not just “unanswered”.. but unPOSITED.. not even an IDEA of 1st cause. Yet, STILL not enough to convince the determined atheist.”
Like has been said several times before, If complexity argues a creator, then does that mean that god needs a creator since he’s complex?
And if god doesn’t need a creator, despite his complexity, then doesn’t that mean that all complex things do not require creation?
Either way it seems that 1) existence is in no way evidence of a creator or 2) having a “creator” doesn’t answer all the questions, but only presents more – which was one of your criticisms for not believing in god (that it doesn’t answer how or why we got here or the 1st cause).
And as far as your compelling or factual evidence, all I’ve seen you list are martyrs and creation. Mike had spoken about prophecies, but I think we’ve been over those and have addressed them. I’d be happy to look at and discuss any that you feel like would we great examples of evidence for the bible, though.
You haven’t explained or shown how Christian martyrs are superior to any other or why martyrdom is evidence of anything more than the individual’s devotion to whatever they gave their life for.
I’ve asked before, but if you want to continue the discussion in a productive manner, would you answer some of the questions that have been given to you?
Will you also list your points and evidence, if you have more than martyrs and creation? I suggest numbering them, that way it will be harder for us to miss and easier for us to address or comment on.
Maybe explain how you get from existence to a creator to jesus.
You can even read through some of nate’s blog posts in his about section, and join in the discussions there as long as you have more to add than “you’re not being objective” or “you’re all lying liberals.” I mean, if you want to continue saying those things, at least back up those claims – however it may still be more productive to address the biblical points.
How does that sound?
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Carmen, good thoughts and I agree.
I dont need answers either,although I speculate a lot. I am as curious as a kitten, which is my friends call me “curious as a kitten william.”
I have learned to be fine with “I dont know” and realize that that is often the most honest answer.
It’s one reason i dont really understand christians’ criticism of atheism or agnosticism for not having an answer to the first cause. making up an answer isnt any more certain than “i dont know” no matter how much they believe it.
If I claimed that nothingness was too unstable, being a mathematical impossibility, to be a starting point, and that all of reason and scientific law clearly showed that the “beginning” had to be a single point of infinite mass and eternal matter…
Would that answer satisfy kathy? no. But it’s an answer. Does that make it true? no.
So why would an “infinite and eternal god claim” satisfy a skeptic? Why would that claim automatically become true?
Kathy hasnt even commented on the question of how her faith can be in a god, when the only way she knows about her god is through claims of men. to me, it looks like faith in man – not faith in god – unless he talks to her directly.
So yes, “I dont know” still seems the most honest and objective answer to me…
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I concur, William, with your thoughts about the innate Human need to know the “how” and “why” of what we observe, and would add to that thought my own belief that we all have within us, a child who yearns for a strong, but compassionate father figure to help us through the tough decisions we often have to make, and if we didn’t have one in real life – and with the increasing divorce rate, that is becoming more and more likely, we search for a surrogate, whether real or imaginary.
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ah, yes arch, I agree.
Would you follow the link on my name and shoot me a quick email? my address can be found there. there’s just some small trivial thing i wanted to ask you privately.
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