Well, after breaking 2000 comments on the previous thread, I think it’s time to move to a new one. Feel free to continue the conversation here.
Also, I want to make a note about future posts. The tone on this blog for the last month or so has been decidedly different than what it used to be. While that’s definitely made things interesting, I’d like to move back to a tone more in line with the way things used to be. So going forward, I want the comments on all new posts to remain civil. We can all make our points, and I expect to see a wide range of opinions. But I don’t want to get into name-calling and bashing when we can’t all agree on particular issues. Let’s try to stay focused on the points and not get side-tracked with personal stuff. Let’s also keep each comment substantive so we don’t rack up so many comments in such a short period of time that it’s hard for everyone to keep track.
If you don’t feel like you can participate within those guidelines, then feel free to continue posting within this thread (and any future “Kathy” threads, if they’re needed), because I won’t be enforcing any guidelines here. But if you want to comment on any other posts, you’ll need to abide by the rules I just laid out. Otherwise, your comment will be subject to deletion, and after a warning, you might find yourself banned from at least that thread, if not the entire blog.
If there are any questions, let me know.
Thanks
Regrettably, Carmen, I believe that there are those in public office, and still more who have the ear of those in public office, who would like nothing better than to bring about WWIII, in the honest belief that it will initiate Armageddon and the “Second Coming.”
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arch, it’s that kind of thinking that makes me howl in frustration. . . and that video is captivating. Surely cooler (and much more sensible) heads will prevail. . . this I fervently hope for.
I’m with all you ‘cool’ people. 🙂
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William,
“This is one of things that makes our discussions a little difficult. You’ll say something, and then say that you never said that thing… It’s just a little cumbersome, and I think gets in the way a little.”
Yes, this is “cumbersome”.. William, the Bible IS evidence for God. Ruth was trying to claim that “a book” was evidence all by itself. The claims and evidence inside the Book that are corroborated by other sources make the Bible compelling evidence for God’s existence.
“Like has been said several times before, If complexity argues a creator, then does that mean that god needs a creator since he’s complex?
And if god doesn’t need a creator, despite his complexity, then doesn’t that mean that all complex things do not require creation?”
Complexity argues for a Creator.. but that doesn’t mean there can’t be exceptions. What you all don’t seem to grasp is that your question of who Created God ALSO argues AGAINST your explanation.. oh wait.. you all DON’T HAVE an explanation. You are way behind in the game.. you don’t even have an idea.. so that makes the very REASONABLE idea (“reasonable” when compared to other possibilities, and again, what are those??) of a Creator the BEST explanation… even if it doesn’t make sense, because.. right!…where did God come from? Believers agree! It’s all very mystifying.. but despite the lack of logic.. were ARE here. And plan and purpose as opposed to pure accident is the more reasonable conclusion. I’ve challenged you all to give a better explanation and no one has.. so I don’t know why you all are having such a hard time in at least acknowledging that we are most likely created beings.
“You haven’t explained or shown how Christian martyrs are superior to any other or why martyrdom is evidence of anything more than the individual’s devotion to whatever they gave their life for.”
Yes I have. You just can’t seem to grasp it. Christian martyrs don’t take their own life or the lives of others. This is not true of Muslim “martyrs” OVERALL. Exceptions are EXCEPTIONS.. not the rule. Christians have given tons of VALID testimony by their martyrdoms and Muslims have give tons of testimony for the hatred that is at the core of their religion.. which from a philosophical perspective argues against that religion being true.
And martyrdom is evidence for the Truth of Christianity.. as it “can” be for any other religion.. but it’s the MOST compelling for Christianity.
“Maybe explain how you get from existence to a creator to Jesus.”
Again, I have. Christianity gives us the most reasonable explanation for our existence.
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Kathy,
I believe that there is evidence for a God, a Creator, however, that evidence does not prove that the Christian God is the Creator God. In fact, the Christian God has proven that his claim to be the Creator God is false. The Creator God cannot be the Christian God because the Christian God claims in his Holy Book that he is all-powerful and all-knowing, yet Jesus believed that the world-wide Flood really did occur. Geologists say that there are mountains of evidence that prove otherwise. It is a geological FACT that there never was a world-wide Flood. It is just as much a fact as the fact that the earth circles the sun, and not the other way around. Therefore Jesus made a mistake. Therefore he can not be the all-knowing God that he claimed to be. Therefore he was not God, the Creator.
You compare Christian martyrs to Muslim martyrs and say that because the Muslim martyrs kill themselves and others, it is not a valid comparison. However, millions of devout Jews have been killed over the last two thousand years, many refusing to recant their Jewish Faith, and without killing themselves or others. Does that prove that Judaism, which denies Jesus as God, is true?
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hey kathy,
you said,
“Yes, this is “cumbersome”.. William, the Bible IS evidence for God. Ruth was trying to claim that “a book” was evidence all by itself. The claims and evidence inside the Book that are corroborated by other sources make the Bible compelling evidence for God’s existence.”
Such as? Can you provide that list we’ve been asking and asking for?
“Complexity argues for a Creator.. but that doesn’t mean there can’t be exceptions. What you all don’t seem to grasp is that your question of who Created God ALSO argues AGAINST your explanation.. oh wait.. you all DON’T HAVE an explanation.”
Like I said when I made the point, either there is a creator or there isn’t. If complexity requires a creator, then who created god (still unanswered questions) and if there are exceptions as you claim, then why isn’t the claim that matter is an exception as some scientists claim?
How do we determine what the exceptions are, in other words?
“You are way behind in the game.. you don’t even have an idea.. so that makes the very REASONABLE idea (“reasonable” when compared to other possibilities, and again, what are those??) of a Creator the BEST explanation… even if it doesn’t make sense, because.. right!…where did God come from? Believers agree! It’s all very mystifying.. but despite the lack of logic.. were ARE here. And plan and purpose as opposed to pure accident is the more reasonable conclusion. I’ve challenged you all to give a better explanation and no one has.. so I don’t know why you all are having such a hard time in at least acknowledging that we are most likely created beings.”
We could be created, although I don’t care to put a percentage or probability on that possibility. But why do I have to know?
Do you have an explanation as to why the sky is blue? If I made one up does that make me right? Having an answer doesn’t make it the right one by default – an objective person would know this, so I’m sure you’d agree, although you’re basically saying, “since it’s the only conjecture I’ll listen to, it’s right by default.”
But again, let’s say you’re right, there is a creator. How do you know it’s just one and how do you know it’s the one your book talks about (this goes back to the previous question)? hoe do you know it would be perfect or all powerful? Can you provide evidence inside the Book ,that you say is corroborated by other sources, that make the Bible compelling evidence for God’s existence?
“And martyrdom is evidence for the Truth of Christianity.. as it “can” be for any other religion.. but it’s the MOST compelling for Christianity.” – Kathy
Kathy, muslims aren’t the only other religion with mostly peaceful martyrs – we’ve been through this. HOW IS IT “MOST” COMPELLING FOR CHRISTIANITY? I’ve seen you claim this several times, but have never seen you justify it. can you?
“ Christianity gives us the most reasonable explanation for our existence.”
Again, Kathy, how? I can get coming up with a “creator,” but walk us through the process of getting from there to jesus, other than the bible said so or “martyrs.”
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And Kathy,
Deut 4:2 says not to add or take away from God’s words. This was written before the NT… the NT being additional teaching that both add to and take away from the OT.
Deut 13 says not to trust anyone who tries to sell another god or religion on you – even if they come with miracles… So don’t you think many of the Jews would have discounted Christ out of hand based on these teachings from their god?
And going back to martyrs, why would suicide bombing martyrs be disqualified if god commanded them to kill infidels? You point to your modern day human reasoning to identify murder as bad, and you go by your NT while having to ignore the commanded murder of innocents in the OT.
Am I right to assume that you think Christian martyrs are superior to muslim martyrs “because the bible says so?”
If you’re going to hold this position, it seems like you should explain yourself further.
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William,
“We could be created, although I don’t care to put a percentage or probability on that possibility. But why do I have to know?”
I think that is a good question. And here’s the answer from the Christian perspective.. we should “know” or care because of what Jesus has done for us. I understand that non believers don’t agree that Jesus has done anything for you.. but MY question is.. what makes you so sure? What is your evidence or reasoning for deciding this? That’s been my whole point. And no one has truly answered this.. specifically.
I contend that the evidence we have strongly suggests that Jesus was a real Person, and that He died willingly / purposefully. Why do you believe the claims of His Deity made by Him and others.. especially all who gave their lives to testify to this claim, are not true?
You should “know” or care and seek the real answers because if it is true, I don’t see how any compassionate human being can turn their back on Him. None of the reasons I’ve heard so far are justified.. they can only be justified if you have valid reasons for rejecting Jesus based on the evidence we do have.. and I’m still waiting to hear those reasons.
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Gary, you said:
“The Creator God cannot be the Christian God because the Christian God claims in his Holy Book that he is all-powerful and all-knowing, yet Jesus believed that the world-wide Flood really did occur. Geologists say that there are mountains of evidence that prove otherwise. It is a geological FACT that there never was a world-wide Flood. It is just as much a fact as the fact that the earth circles the sun, and not the other way around. Therefore Jesus made a mistake. ”
Can you post the passages and the evidence for these claims? I don’t remember if Jesus addressed the flood, please refresh my memory… and I’m not aware of the evidence that “factually” proves a flood never happened.
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Kathy,
If jesus truly died to save anyone or everyone, that is truly admirable. If he were truly the son of god and died for my eternal soul (which is what I once believed), then I can see where living for him would be the thing to do.
It is the lack of evidence for his deity and for the divine origins of the bible that I no longer believe. I think there was a man named jesus that had a following. I can believe that he was crucified, but I don’t think there’s any real evidence for this. Just biblical claims.
To me, after all the issues I saw, whether internal consistency (or lack thereof), or historical, or scientific, and I realized that the bible was nothing but claims of men, it made no sense to continue believing it. All religions are claims of men and all religions boil down to blind faith when you get deep enough. Whether Christianity is the most intricate or the most complex doesn’t make a difference to me – it’s like needing a car, but I’ve been given a tool box and someone says “you should drive the drill” just because it has more moving parts than the hammer or screwdriver – Christianity still seems like a product of man to me and nothing more.
I don’t worry about allah or krishna or sheba or whoever else. Once I saw the issues and realized everything I knew about god (outside of creation) was only what other men have told me, I quit worrying about jesus too.
And I didn’t turn to sin, except for maybe the sin of disbelief. Other than my belief, nothing about me changed. I’m a better Christian than a lot of the Christians I know. Does it seem like a just, merciful and loving god would condemn a righteous person for an honest lack of belief, while letting less-righteius people in heaven simply because they do believe?
That doesn’t sound like justice to me, but you may disagree.
I just don’t buy it.
When reading the gospels I think maybe we can get some clues about what happened. I think that if jesus really taught in parable, then most likely a lot of people didn’t really understand what he was talking about. I think his disciples were really taken aback when he was executed because they though he would be more on of their “judges” from that book and save them, returning them to their own nation.
When he died, they were trying to make sense of it, little by little they constructed the stories about him making a spiritual kingdom and being born of a virgin (misquoting Isaiah), etc, etc.
The masses were poor and the promise of a good, rich life in heaven where there would be no sorrows became very compelling to uneducated and superstitious people who had no way of advancing up the social ladder. Eventually even some educated and wealthy people became inspired by the strange happiness or serenity that the poor servants had and began to join in pursuit of such peace and on it went.
Anyways, that’s just my guess, but my guess doesn’t require supernatural events. I’ve never seen supernatural events, but I have seen things like lightning and hurricanes go from being explained in supernatural means to now being explained in merely physical and natural means. I’ve seen people claim supernatural things that we didn’t believe actually happened.
So, what is the exact evidence that confirms the bible’s divine origin claims?
And if it just boils down to faith, then how is that faith better than others?
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Thanks for your sincere response William.. I’ll respond later this evening..
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The thing you fail to understand, Kathy, regarding the origin of the universe (in addition to the myriad of other things you fail to understand about nearly everything else), is that astro-physicists think nothing of working for 20 years or more on a problem. Einstein produced his theory of relativity while still a young man, then spent the last 30 years of his life, trying to reconcile gravity with the other forces. A hypothesis has to be determined, then tested against observable evidence, and go through a number of other steps, including peer review.
You, on the other hand, have only to pop out of bed in the morning and say, “God did it!” – no tests, no attempt at falsification, no intense calculations, no actual thought really, which is to your advantage – and if anyone attempts a peer review and finds your conclusion lacking, you simply call them a lying Liberal who fails to see the compelling evidence while viewing the Big Picture.
Science has a number of theories that are being worked on as we speak, none of which I’ll bother to pass on, as they would all be over your head, but the weakest of which, is more plausible than your “God did it!” hypothesis.
We’re OK with saying, “We don’t know yet, but we’re working to find out.” And when we do, you still won’t accept it, any more than some of you do evolution, despite that that process has been accepted as established fact for nearly a hundred years.
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“Complexity argues for a Creator.. but that doesn’t mean there can’t be exceptions.” – Oh, how very funny! You say, “Existence is evidence for a Creator,” to which I reply that by your own logic, if your god exists, and you maintain that he does, his own existence is evidence that HE had a creator, and suddenly, you’re screaming, “EXCEPTION!!!!” Didn’t they teach you about the “Special Pleading” fallacy in debate class? Oh, that’s right, you never took a debate class. It shows.
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I’ve given you reasons over and over, and you’ve ignored them each time – I guess atheists aren’t the only ones who lie. None of the anonymous gospel writers who wrote about him – if he ever existed – ever met him or knew anything about him except through decades-old hearsay. That isn’t evidence ANYwhere!
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“I’m not aware of the evidence that ‘factually’ proves a flood never happened.” – considering you never read anything unrelated to the Bible, that really doesn’t surprise me.
Here you go, Kathy (http://www.noahs-ark-flood.com/index.html) although we all know you’ll never read it, or if you do, you’ll decide it was written by a “liberal” (translation: someone who doesn’t think as you do), and refuse to believe it.
Here’s another little tidbit for you Kathy – how much water would it take to cover the entire earth to a point 15 cubits (22.5 feet) higher than the highest mountains (Gen 7:19-20)? I can answer that: 1,194,845,753,604,350,656,512 – (1+ sextillion) – gallons of water! Any idea how much water there is? I can answer that too: From the National Geological Survey, we know that there are (approximately) 326,000,000,000,000,000,000 – (326 quintillion) – gallons of water on, in, under, and above, our planet.
Gosh, Kathy, that leaves us nearly a full sextillion gallons short – there simply isn’t enough water for the flood to have happened as the Bible says it did.
Further, check out the Ark’s blueprints – i – count ’em 1 – window (Gen 6:16), one cubit (18 inches) by one cubit, and it was closed for the entire voyage, until it was time to let the birds out. Did you know, Kathy, that the average cow produces and EXPELS 600 liters – 157 gallons – of methane gas per day in cow farts? Over the 9-month, ten-day voyage, one single cow on board would have produced 6,086 cubic feet of methane gas!
Now the ark, by this god’s own blueprints (Genesis, 6:15) was three hundred cubits long, by fifty cubits wide, by thirty cubits deep – that means the ark was 450 feet long, by 75 feet wide, by 45 feet deep – basically the size of a small ocean liner. Volume-wise (450 X 75 X 45), that amounts to an entire volume of 1,518,750 cubic feet.
Obviously, we must acknowledge that all of those animals occupied space on the ark, and the space they occupied must be subtracted from the total volume of the ark, if our intention is to determine just how much space was available to hold all of the methane gas produced by those animals over an nine-month, ten-day period of time. But since none of us knows how many animals were purportedly on the ark, clearly we can’t make such an estimation, so we’ll stick with the amount of space available on an unoccupied ark, while realizing that the actual amount of available space, that could possibly contain methane, to be much, much less than our calculations – in other words, we’re using yet another conservative estimate.
However, there are several things we do know:
• the ark would have been built to be water-tight throughout a forty-day (and night) deluge, and water-tight means airtight.
• by this god’s own instruction (Genesis, 6:16), the ark had only one window, about eighteen inches square, and it wasn’t opened (Genesis, 8:6) until nine months and ten days after the cruise began.
• a single animal, the size of a common cow, would produce over six thousand, eighty-six cubic feet of methane gas, over 9, 28-day months, plus 10 days.
That means that it would have taken less than 250 such animals to completely fill the ark with methane gas in less than the time the ark was closed up.
Now with only one window, on a boat that large, and it, closed for the entire nine months and ten days – the ark was dark – that was one dark ark. I mean, without a window, in an air-tight ark, you couldn’t see your hand in front of your face.
But surely they had lanterns, didn’t they? Or at least candles?
Have you ever heard of a kid holding a lit match near his rear end, to see if the gas in his fart will light? Trust me, it will, but I’ve been assured that the hair will grow back. Methane is one of the most flammable gasses on the planet.
Sometimes, Kathy, your gullibility absolutely amazes me – you refuse to question ANYthing if it’s in the Bible. They must have started on you very early.
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Kathy, you wrote
For what its worth here’s my view is from where I sit,
It does come to faith. And that’s not a cop out, I think its just a honest assessment.
and unless I’m mistaken, is not faith *the* foundation to a belief in God? Information is received and processed through the foundation of faith.
It seems to me then Kathy that you are beginning from such a foundation. and that’s ok 🙂
It seems to me that you hold a beginning premise is that God exists, and then cases are formulated to support this foundational premise.
An atheist does not begin with such a premise, there’s is a lack of this specific premise. It is therefore a lack of belief, and they build cases and process and select information based on this lack of belief.
I also share a belief in God. But mine may look different to yours. Yours might be more well defined than mine.
People are given the freedom to choose their beliefs I think, Even from a Christian perspective. As far as I know God doesn’t strike people down for expressing their views, at least He doesn’t seem to these days.
If God doesn’t do this (and He is all powerful) then what message is this sending the theist?
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“I understand that non believers don’t agree that Jesus has done anything for you.. but MY question is.. what makes you so sure? What is your evidence or reasoning for deciding this? That’s been my whole point. And no one has truly answered this.. specifically” – NO ONE has truly answered it.. specifically, Kathy? I’ve answered it over and over, specifically! What part of there IS NO EVIDENCE did you not entirely understand?
You don’t even believe in a god, Kathy – you believe in the words of Bronze-Age men who SAY there’s a god!
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Kathy,
Jesus is quoted as saying, “As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the coming of the Son of Man” three times in the Gospels.
The story in Genesis repeatedly uses terms such as “earth” that make it very clear it is a global flood, not a regional flood. If “earth” can be interpreted to mean “a regional area of the Earth” then “resurrection” can easily be interpreted to mean a spiritual resurrection.
Do the following google search:
“The Geological Society of America”
Then on that site, do a search for world wide flood.
This article will discuss the evidence that proves that there was no global flood.
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William,
“It is the lack of evidence for his deity and for the divine origins of the bible that I no longer believe. I think there was a man named jesus that had a following. I can believe that he was crucified, but I don’t think there’s any real evidence for this. Just biblical claims.”
What evidence do you expect from 2000 yrs ago William? I know everyone is tired of hearing this but it really is all about how objective you are able or willing to be. You said..”
Does it seem like a just, merciful and loving god would condemn a righteous person for an honest lack of belief, while letting less-righteius people in heaven simply because they do believe?”
You claim you have an “honest” lack of belief but what if you are wrong? Do you think you possibly COULD lack honest objectivity? Lack of objectivity is not a rare thing by any means.. it’s at the root of mostly every social disagreement in the history of humanity. William, you might truly not have objectivity.. and that might be because of.. yes, I’m going to “say” it.. PRIDE. Something else that is not rare.. and at the root of just about every single social disagreement. Pride and lack of objectivity are very common.. and mostly every person who is plagued by it doesn’t believe they are.. they believe they’re humble and full of objectivity because their pride won’t let them think otherwise.
So, while you don’t see how God could punish you for having “honest” lack of belief, what He KNOWS is that you’ve rejected His word which includes warnings of the very pride that is causing you to reject Him.
You consider yourself “righteous”.. something no Christian would claim about themselves.. and we DON’T reject our Creator. So for you to make that claim while rejecting the One who died for you seems incredibly sinful and prideful. If Jesus DID die for you, there is no possible way you could be “righteous” when you’ve rejected Him. You *think*, if He is real, the evidence He’s provided hasn’t been “good enough”. Again, you can let Him know that yourself one day. I kind of wish I could be there when you tell Him that He just didn’t do it right.
You say there is no “real” evidence for Jesus’ claims or His existence.. well, since it was 2000 years ago, what evidence exactly do you require? photographs? video? Objectivity would help you to see that because of the circumstances, evidence isn’t going to be abundant.. and it’s not going to be empirical. But regardless, God HAS given you evidence… and you choose to reject it because it doesn’t meet YOUR requirements. That it exceeds all other religions in regards to compelling evidence means nothing to you.. that you have no other explanation or can even come up with an idea means nothing either. So many things that so MANY people have considered valuable evidence.. smart intelligent educated people.. caries no weight at all for you/ atheists.
You say that all there is is “just” Biblical claims.. but you ignore that those claims have actual evidence to back them up.. fulfilled prophecies, martyrs, accurate details and doctrine from 40 different authors spanning 1500 years. They aren’t “just” claims.. there is actual corroborative evidence.. but you choose to reject it… based on “honest” lack of belief… you have “honest, objective” explanations for all the “so called” evidence.. martyrdom is the same for all religions.. all have the same “value” / testimonial power.. sorry William but this is not only not true, but it is proof of lack of objectivity. I’ve explained it to you several times now and you STILL keep asking how it is different.. like you have some mental wall that prevents you from understanding.. or more like “accepting” what you don’t want to accept.
Someone taking the lives of others and themselves is not even “martyrdom”.. it’s suicide and homicide. Yet you still can’t grasp the difference between that and what Jesus’ disciples and others did to testify for Him.
I’ve found that no one here is “honest” when it comes to being objective. And God has every right to punish us if we continue to sin by being dishonest and prideful ESPECIALLY if we are also rejecting Him and what He did to PAY for those sins.
“To me, after all the issues I saw, whether internal consistency (or lack thereof),..”
There’s AMAZING consistency in the Bible.. that again was written by 40 different authors over 1500 years..
“or historical”… all the historical documentation lines up with outside sources..
“, or scientific,”.. not a valid argument since our very existence goes AGAINST science and logic. “..and I realized that the bible was nothing but claims of men, it made no sense to continue believing it. All religions are claims of men..”
All are.. except Christianity.. which again has the most compelling evidence and no compelling evidence or even an argument against it’s Truth.
“..and all religions boil down to blind faith when you get deep enough. Whether Christianity is the most intricate or the most complex doesn’t make a difference to me ..”
I didn’t claim that Christianity is true because of it’s complexity.. I’m claiming that Christian doctrine gives us the best explanation for our existence. I’m still waiting for anyone to give me a better explanation.. AND.. the religion that has more compelling evidence.
I wanted to be kind in my reply but I think I failed, I apologize… I can’t help it.. I honestly do see it as all coming down to pride. I can’t be dishonest and not acknowledge that.. just like I acknowledge my own issues with pride. All of us are human and the road isn’t easy for any of us.
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kathy,
“What evidence do you expect from 2000 yrs ago William?” – Kathy
Isn’t there evidence for civilizations, extinct beasts, cave paintings and literature from farther back? This is an all powerful god we’re talking about, right? This a book that supposedly came from this all powerful god, a book that contains a lot of wild claims… I’d expect more than mere claims. We hold all other religions to this scrutiny, why not this one?
“Do you think you possibly COULD lack honest objectivity?” – Kathy
Absolutely it’s possible. I try. I do my best but realize I may fall short. It was this very concern that propelled me out of Christianity, actually. I was so sure my faith was the right one, that I couldn’t understand how anyone else believed differently. They were lying to themselves, I thought… but if they were lying to themselves, then maybe I was too… had I really examined my own position like I expected them to? So I started to question my faith as I asked others to question theirs.
That doesn’t make me right now, but it doesn’t make me wrong then. Am I being objective? That’s a question we should all be asking ourselves – especially when it comes to the consideration of ideas that differ from our own.
“You consider yourself “righteous”.. something no Christian would claim about themselves.. “ – Kathy
That’s cool, sense I’m not a Christian… but 1 John 3:7 – Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
There are other passages too, of course.
“So for you to make that claim while rejecting the One who died for you seems incredibly sinful and prideful.” – Kathy
I’m rejecting the claims made by men – nothing more.
“You say there is no “real” evidence for Jesus’ claims or His existence.. well, since it was 2000 years ago, what evidence exactly do you require? photographs? video? Objectivity would help you to see that because of the circumstances, evidence isn’t going to be abundant.. and it’s not going to be empirical. But regardless, God HAS given you evidence… and you choose to reject it because it doesn’t meet YOUR requirements.” – Kathy
I don’t really know what you’re talking about. “my requirements?” If we’re talking about my belief in something, then it stands to reason that we’d be talking about the requirement of information that would convince me of something. That’s how belief works. Since some people believe in allah, does that mean you should, or do you mean to tell me that you’re belief or a disbelief in allah boil down to what it would require for you to believe in allah?
God hasn’t given me anything. A bunch of dudes wrote some letters and some books. A bunch of other dudes put all that together by selecting some and discounting others. Other dudes translated all that and printed it. Then some other dudes handed it to me while others dudes told me what it meant as I read. It’s all from dudes.
God didn’t write it. An all powerful god who brought people from the dead and created the heavens and the earth through his speech cant write his own book? Is it too tiresome? He can’t show himself to me like he did Moses or Thomas or Paul? He couldn’t just speak to me directly like he did all of his “prophets?”
I do agree, there’s evidence there, but I disagree with which way it points.
“That it exceeds all other religions in regards to compelling evidence means nothing to you.. “ – Kathy
Please provide this evidence and show how it exceeds all others.
“So many things that so MANY people have considered valuable evidence.. smart intelligent educated people.. caries no weight at all for you/ atheists.” – Kathy
Just like smart and intelligent atheists carries no weight at all for you. I don’t follow the leader the very well. I am convinced of something when I am convinced, not when others are, and I think this stands to reason.
“but you ignore that those claims have actual evidence to back them up.. fulfilled prophecies, martyrs, accurate details and doctrine from 40 different authors spanning 1500 years.” – Kathy
I haven’t ignored them. The fulfilled prophecies you speak of are either not prophecies at all when you actually read them in their context or are too vague or too figurative to pinpoint a specific fulfillment. If you want to provide a good example if a fulfilled prophecy, then I’ll review it.
We’ve gone over martyrs to death (pardon the pun).
There are some accurate details the bible and there are some inaccurate details in the bible – we shouldn’t ignore those either.
40 writers over 1500 years is by no means miraculous. Now, if 40 writers from all over the globe wrote down the same things all in the same week, before the telephone or internet were invented, then you might have something. As it is, these writers influenced each other. They had access to the writings of the authors before. How is this a good sign for authenticity?
“ I’ve explained it to you several times now and you STILL keep asking how it is different” – Kathy
No, you’ve said it was better, but you haven’t explained how. I’ve asked for you to. I’ve given examples of peaceful muslims who were martyred, but since you dismiss them as well, I provided examples and specific instances of Sikhs and Tibetan monks and witches and several others, but you still keep going back to muslims who blow themselves up.
“I’ve found that no one here is “honest” when it comes to being objective.” – Kathy
This is probably because you’re not being honest or objective.
“Someone taking the lives of others and themselves is not even “martyrdom”.. it’s suicide and homicide. Yet you still can’t grasp the difference between that and what Jesus’ disciples and others did to testify for Him.” – Kathy
I can grasp the deiffernce, but what I don’t undertsnad is why you think god telling people to murder other people is bad, since your own book is filled with that very thing. You dismiss it by saying that was for specific people in a specific time… well, aren’t muslims specific people in a specific time… just not the people or the time you’d like.
And in a way, your dismissing them the way many dismiss the bible. A loving and perfect God wouldn’t command the murder of innocents. Maybe you’re right – that just means the god of the bible either isn’t real, isn’t loving or isn’t perfect.
“not a valid argument since our very existence goes AGAINST science and logic. “” – Kathy
How so?
“All are.. except Christianity.. which again has the most compelling evidence and no compelling evidence or even an argument against it’s Truth” Kathy
You only believe the bible is from god because it tells you it is. It was written by people. The prophets were people. Unless you’re a prophetess, you’re getting the info through men, sister – their claims.
“I didn’t claim that Christianity is true because of it’s complexity.. I’m claiming that Christian doctrine gives us the best explanation for our existence. I’m still waiting for anyone to give me a better explanation.. AND.. the religion that has more compelling evidence.” – Kathy
How is it best when it doesn’t match up with our observable world?
Let’s talk a little about pride. I don’t believe it the bible’s tall tales – just like I don’t believe in the tall tales of other books. You think that the creator of the universe knows you intimately. You think this Supreme Being wants what’s best for you and watches you daily. You think that we wants to reward you specifically for your faithful service. You think you can speak to him at anytime and he wants nothing more than you for to do so. You think you know the one true way to please this supreme being and that you understand his will when many others do not…
If I’m prideful, what does that make you?
But don’t apologize for the tone of your reply. You feel strongly about all this, so it’s natural to come off strong. We are all human. We’ll all make mistakes despite our best efforts.
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Wow! I didn’t read all of the comments, as there are thousands, but thought I would chime in and say hello! How long has this feud been going on?
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too long.
be wary lest ye also be trapped in the circular blog hole that is this blog thread…
if you escape – sent for help…
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Laurie, *smile* to comment above! Most of us retreated and put our ammo away awhile ago – but a few are ‘soldiering on’ – Zeus love ’em!!
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Gary, nice try, but she will scream “Liberal bias,” while flatly refusing to lift a finger to research ANYthing that might prove her faith misplaced – her delusion of having an “immortal soul” depends on it.
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“it really is all about how objective you are able or willing to be” – Kathy, I think you may be confusing “objective” with “gullible” —
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EXCELLENT defense, William!
“If I’m prideful, what does that make you?” – the best leaders lead by example, bad leaders advise, “Do as I say, not as I do.” How prideful is it to expect one to believe in something without evidence – any god with such expectations, is prideful – is it wrong to follow his example?
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