Well, after breaking 2000 comments on the previous thread, I think it’s time to move to a new one. Feel free to continue the conversation here.
Also, I want to make a note about future posts. The tone on this blog for the last month or so has been decidedly different than what it used to be. While that’s definitely made things interesting, I’d like to move back to a tone more in line with the way things used to be. So going forward, I want the comments on all new posts to remain civil. We can all make our points, and I expect to see a wide range of opinions. But I don’t want to get into name-calling and bashing when we can’t all agree on particular issues. Let’s try to stay focused on the points and not get side-tracked with personal stuff. Let’s also keep each comment substantive so we don’t rack up so many comments in such a short period of time that it’s hard for everyone to keep track.
If you don’t feel like you can participate within those guidelines, then feel free to continue posting within this thread (and any future “Kathy” threads, if they’re needed), because I won’t be enforcing any guidelines here. But if you want to comment on any other posts, you’ll need to abide by the rules I just laid out. Otherwise, your comment will be subject to deletion, and after a warning, you might find yourself banned from at least that thread, if not the entire blog.
If there are any questions, let me know.
Thanks
Sound like anyone we know –?
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Hmmm – the emphasis didn’t emphasize —
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Still a cranky old bird huh Arch! Lol! Some things never change!
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Wow! I didn’t read all of the comments, as there are thousands, but thought I would chime in and say hello! How long has this feud been going on?
Hahaha! Way longer than it should have.
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“Some things never change!” – Since you’re still as sweet as ever, Laurie, you’re living proof of that —
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Conservative/orthodox Christians have steadfastly insisted on the inerrancy of the Bible for 2,000 years. They have continued to insist on the literal inerrancy of Bible passages dealing with history and science until evidence to the contrary becomes so overwhelming that they risk looking like fools if they do not revise their position. Here are a few conservative Christian revisions of God inerrant Word:
—God never really said that the earth is flat, immovable, and has a fixed foundation.
—God never really said that the earth was covered with water, 15 cubits (22.5 feet) above Mr. Everest in the Great Flood.
—God never really said that several millions Hebrews left Egypt in the Exodus.
—God never really said that men like Methuselah lived to be over 900 years old.
—God never really said that the source of the world’s many different languages was due to mankind trying to build a tower to heaven.
So, what revisions will we see next from evangelical and orthodox Christians? Maybe these:
—God never really said that the universe was created in six twenty four hour days. The word “day” can mean many different things. So evolution and the story of Creation are perfectly compatible.
—God didn’t really mean to indicate that the earth is only 6,000-10,000 years old. God was speaking metaphorically when he listed the generations that seem to infer that the earth is young.
—God never really meant to say that the Hebrews conquered Canaan in a brutal conquest. The Hebrews had always existed in the area of Palestine as one of several Canaanite tribes, just as the archaeologists say. The stories of the Patriarchs are metaphorical for God leading his people.
—God never really said that David and Solomon were real, historical persons. They are metaphorical figures of God’s Kingship over his people.
—God never really said that Solomon built a magnificent temple. He was using hyperbole for the holiness of Himself.
—Jesus never really said that he believed that a world-wide Flood occurred in the days of Noah. He knew that the Flood only occurred in the Euphrates River Valley.
—Jesus never really said that he was the fulfillment of a historical Passover in Egypt and that he was the Passover lamb. He was speaking in parables. He knew the Passover was a celebration of a mythical, non-event.
—God never really said that Jesus was conceived by an act of sex between a divine Ghost and a Jewish virgin. Jesus was born just as every other human is born of a human father and mother, but God adopted him as his Son and gave him special powers. The concept of gods having sex with virgins is silly, ancient, nonsense. We just misunderstood God’s meaning when he said Mary was a virgin.
If you believe that your God is incapable of making a mistake, you will make excuse after excuse for every piece of evidence presented to you that proves to any non-biased person that your god is false and non-existent.
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The thing about god is, is he can do anything.
He watches you all the time and will reward you if you’re good and punish you if you’re bad. he’ll also test you.
So it doesn’t matter how absurd or unlikely something is or appears to be – because nothing is impossible for god.
If something looks ridiculous to you, then it’s a test to overcome. If you fail this test, then you’ll be punished and not rewarded.
If you think something appears to be too unlikely to be true, then you’re failing the test. To be rewarded, you must realize that god can do anything and that he will test you… your reward and punishment depend on your test’s score.
You should question other religions and be skeptical of them, but DO NOT question the Lord your God, because he watches you all the time and will know if you doubt his abilities.
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William,
““What evidence do you expect from 2000 yrs ago William?” – Kathy
Isn’t there evidence for civilizations, extinct beasts, cave paintings and literature from farther back? This is an all powerful god we’re talking about, right? ”
So, cave paintings would be “acceptable” evidence that Jesus is the Son of God and died for your sins? You didn’t answer the question.. I still don’t know what evidence you require/ demand from 2000 years ago.
” This a book that supposedly came from this all powerful god, a book that contains a lot of wild claims… I’d expect more than mere claims.”
Again, not “mere claims”.. there is tons of evidence that corroborates the claims in the Bible, you just choose to ignore it or argue it away.
And another thing you and Nate and others here continue to ignore while “arguing” that God “could/should” if He did exist.. He MIGHT have reasons that you don’t understand (or refuse to try and understand) for how He is revealing Himself to us. An all powerful God might just want us to SEEK Him.. not be FORCED to “love” Him. And if you are looking for excuses to not believe.. you certainly aren’t seeking Him. If you refuse to be objective, you certainly are NOT seeking Him. This point shouldn’t be that hard to grasp.
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William cont..
“That’s cool, sense I’m not a Christian… but 1 John 3:7 – Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.”
But what you call “righteousness” isn’t the same as what Jesus is speaking to. This is what you don’t get.
““So for you to make that claim while rejecting the One who died for you seems incredibly sinful and prideful.” – Kathy
I’m rejecting the claims made by men – nothing more. ”
Based on WHAT evidence William? I haven’t read further..maybe you answer this? finally?
“It’s all from dudes. God didn’t write it.”
And again, you have no real evidence or even a valid argument for this claim.
” An all powerful god who brought people from the dead and created the heavens and the earth through his speech cant write his own book? Is it too tiresome? He can’t show himself to me like he did Moses or Thomas or Paul? He couldn’t just speak to me directly like he did all of his “prophets?”
Ok.. so you require or expect or demand? that God physically write the Bible Himself.. that He isn’t “allowed” to use His creation to write it down.. this sounds like a demand for empirical proof.. which again, I’ve tried to explain that there might be reasons for why God has chosen to not give you empirical evidence.
And you also require/expect/ demand that God show Himself to you, like He did to all those others.. who by the way went through a lot of suffering along with their privileged positions… for the purpose of supplying REAL evidence so people like us (who apply objectivity) will consider and use it to support our faith.
So, I don’t know.. are you willing to be a martyr if you receive this special empirical evidence?
Again, this is how GOD chooses to reveal Himself to us.. but clearly you demand He do it YOUR way.
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Willliam cont..
““That it exceeds all other religions in regards to compelling evidence means nothing to you.. “ – Kathy
Please provide this evidence and show how it exceeds all others.”
I did William. Clearly you don’t agree.. so now it’s YOUR turn.. please provide the religion or other explanation that exceeds Christianity.
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William, cont..
““So many things that so MANY people have considered valuable evidence.. smart intelligent educated people.. caries no weight at all for you/ atheists.” – Kathy
Just like smart and intelligent atheists carries no weight at all for you. I don’t follow the leader the very well. I am convinced of something when I am convinced, not when others are, and I think this stands to reason.”
And this takes us back to an earlier point.. when there are differences between people, it usually comes down to pride.. one side is lacking objectivity.. is it me (believers) or is it you (atheists)? I don’t think you will be able to give a valid argument for the humility of atheists.. but I know you’ll try.
“I haven’t ignored them. The fulfilled prophecies you speak of are either not prophecies at all when you actually read them in their context or are too vague or too figurative to pinpoint a specific fulfillment. If you want to provide a good example if a fulfilled prophecy, then I’ll review it.”
And this is an example of you arguing away the evidence. What proof do you have, what is your evidence that supports these claims William?
A good example is the prophecy we’ve debated.. Tyre. It defied the odds, yet you and Nate and others insist that it doesn’t count because of wording you’ve ADDED to the prophecy. This is what constitutes an EXCUSE William.. you *think* you’ve argued away the evidence but you’ve only revealed your lack of objectivity and honesty.
“There are some accurate details the bible and there are some inaccurate details in the bible – we shouldn’t ignore those either.”
What are they? And how do their numbers compare to all the ACCURATE details provided in the Bible? Again, this is about WEIGHING the evidence. Just like in a trial intended to find the truth, there is evidence that goes both ways.. but only one way is the truth. If there are a few (by comparison) “inaccuracies”.. possibly, since overall the Bible has ACCURATE details.. those few that aren’t.. might just be errors in how you/ atheists are interpreting it. Like the Tyre prophecy.. since most of it is undisputed AND DEFIED the odds.. objectivity SHOULD incline you to give the benefit of the doubt to the words.. that again you ADDED.. to the prophecy.
” 40 writers over 1500 years is by no means miraculous.”
It’s amazing compelling evidence.. that, again William, you WEIGH along with the other evidence for and against.
“Now, if 40 writers from all over the globe wrote down the same things all in the same week, before the telephone or internet were invented, then you might have something. As it is, these writers influenced each other. They had access to the writings of the authors before. How is this a good sign for authenticity? ”
Wrong.. it was a time when people who lived thousands or hundreds of miles away from each other would be like people on the other side of the globe today. This is another example of a lack of objectivity. You assume there was “publishing” of these writings.. and that they were distributed throughout the world.
These are the fine details that separate those who WANT to seek God and those who don’t. Those who don’t, will assume 2000 yrs ago is not much different from today.
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“So, cave paintings would be “acceptable” evidence that Jesus is the Son of God and died for your sins? You didn’t answer the question.. I still don’t know what evidence you require/ demand from 2000 years ago.” – kathy
no, cave paintings wouldn’t do it, but there are cave paintings and it didnt take a perfect, all powerful god to preserve those. so if cave dwelling neanderthals can do that, what could an all powerful god do?
But what evidence? At this point i am not sure, but a perfect book would be nice, and maybe a preserved originals too. Evidence of the exodus and 40 year wondering should be found, but is not…
There’s not even any corroborative record of the sun moving backward several degrees as the bible said it did with hezeliah, or the sun standing still for joshua, or of dead people leaving the grave and walking around like Matthew claims happened at jesus’ death… Some other sources of these events may be nice…
then there’s the flood. maybe a t-rex skeleton found with a knights’ skeleton. Maybe a dead pharaoh and his chariots below the red sea… or a lone salt pillar the size of Lot’s wife… a wooden ship at the top of ararat… goliath’s bones…
Personally, i also think Tyre being completely gone would be helpful too.
stuff like that.
or god could just tell me which book or which way is his like he did abraham, paul, and several others…
“Again, not “mere claims”.. there is tons of evidence that corroborates the claims in the Bible, you just choose to ignore it or argue it away.” – kathy
care to share just a few pounds of all those tons?
“And another thing you and Nate and others here continue to ignore while “arguing” that God “could/should” if He did exist.. He MIGHT have reasons that you don’t understand (or refuse to try and understand) for how He is revealing Himself to us. An all powerful God might just want us to SEEK Him.. not be FORCED to “love” Him. And if you are looking for excuses to not believe.. you certainly aren’t seeking Him. If you refuse to be objective, you certainly are NOT seeking Him. This point shouldn’t be that hard to grasp.” – kathy
and what about those seeking truth? is it like you say, that you seek to find the god of the true and others seek to find the god of the bible untrue? what about those who simply look for the truth, whatever it may be?
also, the bible makes claims about god. I take those claims, like merciful, loving, just, perfect, etc and see if the bible is consistent with those descriptions – often they are not. So I am not simply “arguing what god could/should do” based upon my imaginations, but upon what the bible claims.
Like you have pointed out with islam, those who murder others are not from god. Why do you think that? is it because islam isn’t in the bible or is it because you think god is loving, merciful and just? Now ask yourself, is it loving, merciful or just to slaughter women and children? To butcher a 18 month old terrified little boy who just watched his mommy and daddy cut down and they screamed and pleaded? Imagine that little boy writhe in torment as they cut into this flesh, with his little, chubby baby arms tried to defend himself against the sword blows. Now imagine the virgin girls watch all of this only to be “spared” and kept by “god’s people.” How much does that fit in with a perfect, loving, merciful father?
God may have his reasons. I cant speak for him. I can only speak for myself. I have my reasons for not believing and it has nothing to with what I want the truth to be.
Provide some of this evidence you say is so clear and so abundant.
1) If you have a great example for a fulfilled prophecy – list it and let’s discuss it.
2) If you can show how christian martyrs are more compelling than others, then please do.
3) If all you have is martyrs, the “prophecies” we’ve already discussed, and what you call common sense, then we may have exhausted this topic.
what do you think?
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“And this takes us back to an earlier point.. when there are differences between people, it usually comes down to pride.. one side is lacking objectivity.. is it me (believers) or is it you (atheists)? I don’t think you will be able to give a valid argument for the humility of atheists.. but I know you’ll try.” – Kathy
I’m not defending atheists. You and I are talking about the bible. All the atheists in the world could be either the salt of the earth or the bag that holds the scum – none of those has anything to do with the veracity of the bible.
And I represent myself – not any party.
Who’s being objective? We’ll I’m talking about the bible and those engaged in this particular discussion, while you’re wanting to categorize it as being between all/most believer and all/most atheists.
“And this is an example of you arguing away the evidence. What proof do you have, what is your evidence that supports these claims William?” – Kathy
Claims of what? Of there not being evidence for the claims of the bible? Like, “look, there it isn’t?”
Maybe it would be easier for you to give evidence for your claims, sense you say the bible is of divine origin.
“What are they? And how do their numbers compare to all the ACCURATE details provided in the Bible? “
Hares chew the cud. Seeds must die before they can grow. Were the angels on the tomb’s stone or in the tomb? The genealogy. Matthew credits Jeremiah for something Zechariah said… there’s really a significant list. Nate listed some on the initial letter’s to Kathy post and you can find more on his about page. And several have listed several others in these three threads.
But your point about weighing the evidence… a book without any erros isn’t proof for a perfect god’s penmanship, but a book with just one error is proof that it didn’t come from a perfect being.
“Wrong.. it was a time when people who lived thousands or hundreds of miles away from each other would be like people on the other side of the globe today. This is another example of a lack of objectivity. You assume there was “publishing” of these writings.. and that they were distributed throughout the world.” – Kathy
Sorry Kathy, but you’re wrong. Take a look at when these letters were written and where they lived. Look at the trade among nations at that time. 40 authors over 1500 years is by no means miraculous – even at that time. Doesn’t it bother you even a little that this is one of your best “evidences?”
“A good example is the prophecy we’ve debated.. Tyre. It defied the odds, yet you and Nate and others insist that it doesn’t count because of wording you’ve ADDED to the prophecy. This is what constitutes an EXCUSE William.. you *think* you’ve argued away the evidence but you’ve only revealed your lack of objectivity and honesty.” – Kathy
If this is your go to prophecy, then we’ve nothing further to discuss. We’re obviously on two different wave lengths. The city is there today despite what Ezekiel said. You see it differently. It’s been fun, but I guess we’re done.
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“I guess we’re done.” Is this a prophecy or just a promise? 🙂
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“But what you call “righteousness” isn’t the same as what Jesus is speaking to. This is what you don’t get.” – Kathy
Righteousness is doing things that are righteous. If you’re saying that doing really good things doesn’t count unless you truly believe that jesus was god’s literal son, who died but raised from the dead and flew up to heaven, then it’s you who doesn’t get the point.
I can do more good things and less bad things than person “x” but person “x” goes to heaven while I go to hell, because I didn’t believe a huge, supernatural story. Then person “y” can do a lot of good things and very few bad things, but if he believes in the wrong Huge Supernatural story, then he goes to hell too.
You know, once I type it out, it does look like justice – never mind.
I’m rejecting the claims made by men – nothing more. ”based on WHAT evidence William? I haven’t read further..maybe you answer this? finally? – Kathy
Good lord Kathy, based on the evidence that there isn’t supporting evidence for jesus really being a demigod and flying into heaven after visiting hell – among other things.
Jesus, woman! You say the bible has tons of evidence and when I ask for the evidence, you say martyrs. we “discuss” that and then ask what evidence I have for not believing in a supernatural story…
Can you give me an example… what evidence do you point to for there not being aliens or bigfoot?
“It’s all from dudes. God didn’t write it.” And again, you have no real evidence or even a valid argument for this claim. – Kathy
What? The bible itself says this.
“So, I don’t know.. are you willing to be a martyr if you receive this special empirical evidence?”
I expect to be convinced. I expect that since there are all sorts of wild claims and differing religions and even differing sects of Christianity, that there be something tangible that sets it apart. I get that you’re convinced by dead people, 40 authors over 1500 years, and tyre – I am not.
Whoa! 40 people wrote a book and it only took them 1500 years! Wow. People cant write books… oh they can? Oh. Never mind.
“Again, this is how GOD chooses to reveal Himself to us.. but clearly you demand He do it YOUR way.” – Kathy
Again, this is how the authors claimed god chose to “revea;” himself. I could just as easily have a “personal relationship” with Anne Frank. I do, we have lots of conversations. I can talk to her anytime.
“I did William. Clearly you don’t agree.. so now it’s YOUR turn.. please provide the religion or other explanation that exceeds Christianity” – Kathy
Oh, so all you had for the superior evidence is that “most muslim martyrs killed people while Christian martyrs were well know?” I expected more, but somehow this is all I thought you had. I think all religions are from man. I’ve been showing it.
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Very well said, Gary.
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You really can’t see the absurdity of what you’re saying, can you Kathy – you make the perfect little Christian. The problem is, that you’re infecting others with your disease, your daughter, for example.
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“An all powerful God might just want us to SEEK Him..” – An all powerful god wouldn’t play hide and seek.
“not be FORCED to “love” Him.” – Then why does he threaten us with eternal hell fire if we choose not to?
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GOOD NEWS!!
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Notice that Kathy has no interest in discussing the Old Testament. I am finding this true for a lot of evangelical Christians. The OT just doesn’t matter to them. The New Testament is “where its all at”.
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@Laurie,
Welcome back Laurie! I had always wondered where you had disappeared to. Hope all is well.
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Kathy asks: “How is this [atheism] different from “agnostic”?
gnosis – Knowledge of spiritual mysteries.
And from the same source:
gnostic – Relating to knowledge, especially esoteric mystical knowledge.
agnostic – A person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.
To summarize:
Agnostic means don’t know. Atheist means don’t believe.
Although I’m technically an “ignostic” (someone with no opinions on the existence of “god(s)” until a coherent definition is provided) I prefer to keep it simple and call myself a non-believer.
That’s correct. As Carl Sagan said: “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”*
Your entire belief system hinges upon the claim that Jesus was resurrected from the dead and remains alive to this day. That’s an extraordinary claim because it runs counter to all other observed cases of death. And as Paul so aptly noted: “if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.”
So the only evidence that could possibly satisfy such a claim is seeing this resurrected man in the flesh—a request Christians always seem loathe to meet. Why is that?
* The Laplace Principle: “The weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to its strangeness.” (De Principe de Laplace: “Le poids des preuves doit être proportionné à l’étrangeté des faits.” )
~Théodore Flournoy, Des Indes à la planète Mars: étude sur un cas de somnambulisme avec glossolalie, p. 345
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William,
“An all powerful God might just want us to SEEK Him.. not be FORCED to “love” Him. And if you are looking for excuses to not believe.. you certainly aren’t seeking Him. If you refuse to be objective, you certainly are NOT seeking Him. This point shouldn’t be that hard to grasp.” – Kathy
and what about those seeking truth? is it like you say, that you seek to find the god of the true and others seek to find the god of the bible untrue? what about those who simply look for the truth, whatever it may be?”
That’s a good point.. so now I ask, what evidence do you have that I am not seeking the truth, whatever it may be? Please quote me.. that’s the evidence I require here.
I contend that you and others here are NOT seeking truth, whatever it may be.. and I’ve pointed that out countless times by exposing your lack of objectivity… using YOUR own words.
Whoever is lacking objectivity is NOT seeking the truth/ Truth. And this is dishonesty.. and it’s sin. And you have no excuse for it. God’s judgment is just.
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“That’s a good point.. so now I ask, what evidence do you have that I am not seeking the truth, whatever it may be? Please quote me.. that’s the evidence I require here.” kathy
same question right back at you.
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kathy, do you have anything of substance to contribute?
I dont really want to take the time to play the kindergartner games of cutting and pasting your own phrases that make you out to be extremely biased and clearly lacking objectivity…
I can do this, but then you’d just say you misspoke, or whatever, and then i’d ask you to clarify, etc, and on and on, so i think this is wasteful and silly and I’d rather avoid it. and keep in mind, you’re the main one running around telling everyone how they’re not objective.
And you “point it out” by saying that if everyone was objective, then they’d believe in god because of martyrs, the bible, and 40 authors taking 1500 years to complete the bible.
Do you have anything of substance to contribute?
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