Well, after breaking 2000 comments on the previous thread, I think it’s time to move to a new one. Feel free to continue the conversation here.
Also, I want to make a note about future posts. The tone on this blog for the last month or so has been decidedly different than what it used to be. While that’s definitely made things interesting, I’d like to move back to a tone more in line with the way things used to be. So going forward, I want the comments on all new posts to remain civil. We can all make our points, and I expect to see a wide range of opinions. But I don’t want to get into name-calling and bashing when we can’t all agree on particular issues. Let’s try to stay focused on the points and not get side-tracked with personal stuff. Let’s also keep each comment substantive so we don’t rack up so many comments in such a short period of time that it’s hard for everyone to keep track.
If you don’t feel like you can participate within those guidelines, then feel free to continue posting within this thread (and any future “Kathy” threads, if they’re needed), because I won’t be enforcing any guidelines here. But if you want to comment on any other posts, you’ll need to abide by the rules I just laid out. Otherwise, your comment will be subject to deletion, and after a warning, you might find yourself banned from at least that thread, if not the entire blog.
If there are any questions, let me know.
Thanks
William,
“also, the bible makes claims about god. I take those claims, like merciful, loving, just, perfect, etc and see if the bible is consistent with those descriptions – often they are not. So I am not simply “arguing what god could/should do” based upon my imaginations, but upon what the bible claims. ”
But here’s the problem William.. are you making these judgments OBJECTIVELY? Christians disagree with this judgment you make. God is abundantly merciful .. He gave His Son! But you feel that because He punishes those who don’t accept that ultimate gift, that makes Him “unjust”. Again Christians see this differently. You’ve been give every chance and you’ve chosen to find excuses, not reasons to believe.
You’ve decided that God isn’t “consistent”… but again, you MIGHT not be applying objectivity. The very objectivity I’ve proven, using your own words, that you lack. That’s the key here William… OBJECTIVITY. Any judgments a person makes who has shown they lack objectivity are judgments without merit. This IS the basis of this whole debate! You all make claims and judgments to defend your chosen beliefs, but if you don’t have objectivity, it all means nothing. It just serves as good examples of your bias.
I’m the one here asking questions that aren’t getting answers.. I’ve answered all your questions. My questions show my objectivity, your silence (Nate) and lack of answers shows your lack of objectivity.
When I ask what other religion or explanation for our existence makes more sense than Christianity, that is me SEEKING TRUTH. I WANT someone to answer.. with OBJECTIVY. But I get NO answers.. not even an acknowledgment of these questions that are seeking truth.
This is my proof of objectivity and your proof that you all lack it.. when you don’t answer my questions honestly, and instead attack me.. that’s enough to tell me which side of this debate is lacking objectivity.
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““That’s a good point.. so now I ask, what evidence do you have that I am not seeking the truth, whatever it may be? Please quote me.. that’s the evidence I require here.” kathy
same question right back at you.”
I’ve used your own words all over this blog.. every time I accuse you of lacking objectivity it CONTAINS the CONTEXT/ your own words of WHY I’ve made that claim.
Where have you don’t this?? Just give me ONE example.
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“I’m the one here asking questions that aren’t getting answers.. I’ve answered all your questions.” – kathy
this is just absurd. You do everything you can to avoid answering questions.
it’s like you’re stuck in a perpetual “opposite day.”
if you’re serious about answering, then answer these:
1) show how christian martyrs are superior to any other. Remember, there have been given more examples than just muslims.
2) Earlier, when you kept asking for everyone to list which religion had the most credentials for being true, you gave the clarification that you were not asking which had more credentials for being true in its divine origin claims. In what way could they be true then, if not in their claims of being divine?
3) Does the slaughter of children and babies and the saving the virgin girls (ever wonder how they figured out which ones were virgins?) for themselves sound like the commands of a perfect, loving, and merciful god who tells us to think of him as father?
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“I’ve used your own words all over this blog.. every time I accuse you of lacking objectivity it CONTAINS the CONTEXT/ your own words of WHY I’ve made that claim.
Where have you don’t this?? Just give me ONE example.” – kathy
I’ve answered all your questions several times, but i am not going to do this. I have before, but if you dont recall and care that much about it, you can go back through some 3000 comments and weed through those, but I wont.
I dont care enough and I already waste enough time here.
If the prophecy of tyre, 40 authors taking 1500 years to compose the books of the bible, martyrs and our existence is the extent of your position – what else do we have to discuss?
None of those are good examples of divine truth.
I dont really care whether you think I’m objective or not, as I believe you to be unreasonable and exceedingly biased and delusional. I dont even think you know what the word means, because where you say you’ve “shown” it in our quotes, it isnt there.
provide some actual evidence (of biblical stuff) or answer the below or maybe we have nothing more to discuss.
1) show how christian martyrs are superior to any other. Remember, there have been given more examples than just muslims.
2) Earlier, when you kept asking for everyone to list which religion had the most credentials for being true, you gave the clarification that you were not asking which had more credentials for being true in its divine origin claims. In what way could they be true then, if not in their claims of being divine?
3) Does the slaughter of children and babies and the saving the virgin girls (ever wonder how they figured out which ones were virgins?) for themselves sound like the commands of a perfect, loving, and merciful god who tells us to think of him as father?
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“When I ask what other religion or explanation for our existence makes more sense than Christianity, that is me SEEKING TRUTH. I WANT someone to answer.. with OBJECTIVY. But I get NO answers.. not even an acknowledgment of these questions that are seeking truth.” – kathy
It has been answered, but I’ll answer it again – i dont know.
But christianity isn’t true by default. the bible conflicts with the observable world. The observable world does not show a global flood, it does not have dinosaur bones intermingled with people bones, the earth appears to be much, much older than 6000 years old, etc, etc.
Furthermore, the creation account in Gen 1 & 2 dont agree on whether birds came out of the water or land – among other issues.
So, someone may think that elves are the best explanation for new shoes, but that doesnt make it right, even if the other explanations say that magical snails make them.
Truly, the truth is, the bible isnt a great explanation. It’s got issues and doesn’t answer all the questions anymore than anything else. are you really seeking truth, or are you seeking to know the bible and god better since you “know” they’re true?
why dont you tell us how it’s better if that’s what you think?
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William,
“this is just absurd. You do everything you can to avoid answering questions.
it’s like you’re stuck in a perpetual “opposite day.”
if you’re serious about answering, then answer these: ”
This is YOU avoiding answering MY direct question that I just gave you..
instead of answering you choose to give me the same question I’ve already answered
over and over, dishonestly claiming that I didn’t answer it… I don’t know how I can explain any more clearly your obvious problem with the evidence of martyrdom and the differences between the different religions.. and the concept of WEIGHING evidence.. not focusing on the fringe exceptions. Christian martyrdom is vastly more compelling than any other. When you look at all the factors, objective people see this truth. While there might be a few exceptions of other religions having martyrs with similar circumstances when you apply all the factors.. the religion itself, the credibility of the martyrs etc.. it doesn’t surpass Christianity. Again, it’s very simple.. if you disagree, name the martyrs and GIVE the argument of how they surpass Christian martyrs.
I’ll answer 2 & 3 again.. I’m certain I’ve done so already for those too.. but I want YOU to give me at least ONE example that proves my lack of objectivity first. My examples are in nearly every comment I’ve made on this blog. I’m not aware of ANY examples you’ve given,… using my own words, to prove this claim.
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William,
““When I ask what other religion or explanation for our existence makes more sense than Christianity, that is me SEEKING TRUTH. I WANT someone to answer.. with OBJECTIVY. But I get NO answers.. not even an acknowledgment of these questions that are seeking truth.” – kathy
It has been answered, but I’ll answer it again – i dont know.
But christianity isn’t true by default. the bible conflicts with the observable world. The observable world does not show a global flood, it does not have dinosaur bones intermingled with people bones, the earth appears to be much, much older than 6000 years old, etc, etc.”
That’s fine.. those are all valid questions.. BUT.. I still want to address THIS first.. there’s no point in debating until we establish that both sides are being objective..
YOU said:
“and what about those seeking truth? is it like you say, that you seek to find the god of the true and others seek to find the god of the bible untrue? what about those who simply look for the truth, whatever it may be?”
I responded: “That’s a good point.. so now I ask, what evidence do you have that I am not seeking the truth, whatever it may be? Please quote me.. that’s the evidence I require here.
I contend that you and others here are NOT seeking truth, whatever it may be.. and I’ve pointed that out countless times by exposing your lack of objectivity… using YOUR own words.
Whoever is lacking objectivity is NOT seeking the truth/ Truth. And this is dishonesty.. and it’s sin. And you have no excuse for it. God’s judgment is just.”
I’m still waiting for you to give examples using my own words that show I lack objectivity. Your responses so far have been excuses to NOT have to answer this.. and you’ve tried to divert away from my direct request.
As I stated, it is ultimately about who is applying the most objectivity. I know of NOTHING in my own words that show I’m not being objective. I challenge ANYONE here to prove me wrong.
There’s no point in expending energy and time debating these valid points (on both sides) if one side will ultimately become dishonest when their points are not adequately defending their beliefs.
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kathy, your answer to question #1 shows it. “they’re just better (paraphrasing)” doesnt show that they’re better.
I’m not going back through thousands of comments. If you want to be “objective” – fine, I wont argue with you. But where you say you’ve shown that i’m not objective is stupid and doesnt show what you want it to.
Our entire conversation has been crazy – literally.
we can finally move forward or we can just finish. It’s up to you.
answer the questions, provide new “evidence,” or we can agree that we just dont agree.
But be careful complaining about being “attacked,” as you dont want to come off as hypocritical.
be careful calling everyone “un objective” when you run around saying that “you cant disprove the bible,” as if that even makes sense, as if that isn’t the weakest argument a person could make.
Be careful saying that you’re the example of objectivity when you say that we shouldn’t question god after he’s died for us, when all you have as evidence for that are claims of men, and then say that it’s not just claims of men, without providing any other references to validate that claim.
I urge you to slow down and think all of this over. I urge you consider people growing up in Tibet or Afghanistan and think about what it would take for them to question, leave their faith and move over to a new faith…
And think about the arguments you’ve been giving for your faith. do you really not realize that all faiths make those same arguments for why theirs is right?
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“There’s no point in expending energy and time debating these valid points (on both sides) if one side will ultimately become dishonest when their points are not adequately defending their beliefs.” – kathy
I agree, yet I’ve stuck with it anyways… But I think you’re right.
take care.
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“what evidence do you have that I am not seeking the truth, whatever it may be?” – your bias and narrow-mindedness, and lack of objectivity, for starters.
“Please quote me.. that’s the evidence I require here.” – “God’s judgment is just.” – the fact that you begin with the premise that there IS a god is a clear sign of your lack of objectivity, and we all know that, “Whoever is lacking objectivity is NOT seeking the truth/ Truth.“
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That you automatically accept that, “God is abundantly merciful .. He gave His Son!” when the only evidence you have for this is the words of four anonymous men who never met him and base their entire premises on hearsay information, 50-70 years old, is a clear sign that you lack objectivity, and as we all know, “Any judgments a person makes who has shown they lack objectivity are judgments without merit.”
“God is abundantly merciful .. – according to your Bible, he got bears to maul to death 42 children – do you call that merciful?
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“(ever wonder how they figured out which ones were virgins?)” – that’s easy, William, it’s a simple test: one guy strips naked and paints one testicle red and the other one green, then the girls are paraded past him. The ones who laugh and say those are the funniest-looking balls they ever saw, get the axe.
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I’ve said it at LEAST a dozen times, Kathy – martyrdom is proof only of the degree of the martyr’s gullibility.
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Kathy, the fact that I’ve responded to all of that, and you’ve ignored my responses, is yet further proof that you lack objectivity, “And this is dishonesty.. and it’s sin. And you have no excuse for it.”
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Looks like I’m the only one left who’ll talk to you, Kathy —
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Objective…. she keeps using that word. I don’t think it means what she thinks it means.
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I think, to her, Ron, “objective” means seeing things her way.
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Kathy, re: August 20, 2014 at 2:55 pm:
I don’t think those words mean what you think they mean. (Also “evidence”, but you didn’t use it in that comment.) 😉
Baloney. All your questions have been answered several times, by many of us. You just don’t like the answers, and can’t understand (or refuse to do so) when we explain how the questions are fundamentally broken or misguided, assuming your conclusion, special pleading, etc.
I don’t recall seeing answers from you to several numbered questions that William and arch have posed to you in the last several comments.
No, they show you assuming premises without evidence, among other things.
Or it shows he’s already answered your questions and is tired of going in circles. Or that he’s busy with other things. Or that you’re being ridiculous, and he’s lost hope in getting through to you in any way. Or…
Kathy, I’m offended. How could you forget my shiny turds?
And as we’ve explained, while you may be attempting to seek truth by asking this question, your unwillingness to so much as consider the possibility that none of the revealed religions may be true exposes your own bias and lack of objectivity.
It’s only because you’re being ridiculous and applying double standards and repeating fallacious unsupported claims and…
BTW, speaking of unanswered questions, I’m still waiting for those examples of my alleged hypocrisy.
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“kathy, your answer to question #1 shows it. “they’re just better (paraphrasing)” doesnt show that they’re better.”
Fine. Even though I HAVE explained how Christian martyrdom is more compelling overall.. I’ll just ask, again, for you to give your examples of the “better” martyr evidence from other religions since you disagree.
“I’m not going back through thousands of comments. If you want to be “objective” – fine, I wont argue with you. But where you say you’ve shown that i’m not objective is stupid and doesnt show what you want it to.”
So, you now agree that I am being objective.. so now let’s settle if YOU are applying objectivity. You say my examples are “stupid”.. which ones and why?? Why didn’t you give the examples.. why do I have to ask?? Why am I always having to ask for specifics with atheists/ liberals.. repeatedly.
“Be careful saying that you’re the example of objectivity when you say that we shouldn’t question god after he’s died for us,..”
Never said that. Again, please quote my words if I’m wrong.
“I urge you to slow down and think all of this over. I urge you consider people growing up in Tibet or Afghanistan and think about what it would take for them to question, leave their faith and move over to a new faith…”
Again, I’ll ask what are my words that indicate I haven’t thought all of this over.. I’m fully aware of the other religions and how hard it would be to leave their faith.. yet many STILL do.. risking their lives.
“And think about the arguments you’ve been giving for your faith. do you really not realize that all faiths make those same arguments for why theirs is right?”
Some might make the same arguments but they don’t have the same evidence to back up their arguments.. that’s been one of my major points here.. and what all of you ignore, due to lack of objectivity.. and why do I make that accusation? Because I’ve gotten no answers to my question of which religion, if not Christianity, has more evidence.. I’ve gotten nothing.. no answers to argue against my claim and YET.. no acknowledgement that Christianity does have the most compelling evidence… and this is evidence of lack of objectivity.. it’s evidence that you all are NOT searching for the truth.. whatever that may be. So, I’ve just made another claim of lack of objectivity and given my reason why.. like I have ALWAYS done.. if you think this is a “stupid” reason, the please give your specific reasons for this claim.
That’s my last word on this debate if you can’t give me examples and specifics to back up the claims you are making.. we can just agree to disagree.
But I do want to say one last thing..
Many here can’t understand how God could give such a harsh punishment for not accepting His Son. I woke up today with a better understanding.. and that’s from the Holy Spirit Who works in all believers. What isn’t being understood is the seriousness of sin. And what exactly sin is. It’s the complete opposite of God and Who He is. Sin cannot have a place in eternal life with God.
It starts with love and free will. Love cannot exist without free will. We cannot love God without free will. But with free will comes sin. It’s impossible to be sinless human beings while also having free will. So, this IS the problem that God needed to resolve in order for us, His creation, to be able to spend eternity with Him.
Sin is an offense to God’s very Being. Sin is breaking God’s laws. And when laws are broken penalties are required. The penalty for “offending” God.. which means we are setting ourselves AGAINST Him.. SHOULD be severe.. because the offense IS severe. (This is exactly what satan did.. he rebelled against God, he set himself AGAINST God.) Many will refuse to accept this because you don’t want to accept God’s position as your Creator and your LORD. You don’t want to acknowledge His perfect Holiness and His sovereignty. Because that would require you to be humble and acknowledge that you are a sinner and that your fate is in His control.
So, the penalty for sin is severe and rightly so.. and if there is a way to pay the penalty for all the sin of mankind it will definitely require a value that no human being would be able to pay. But, as Jesus said.. all things are possible with God.
That it required God’s Son to pay for the penalty for our sins tells us of the SERIOUSNESS of sin.. and it also tells us how much God LOVES us. This is the “Good News” of the Gospels. This is what the disciples preached relentlessly for the rest of their lives until their lives were taken from them. That even though our sinful state is unavoidable and requires severe punishment… because of God’s love for us.. we have hope and can be redeemed. But it comes at a heavy price.. and those who turn their backs on this gift of love from God have only compounded many times over, their sin against God and their even greater need for Him.
I often thought that no matter how hard I try, I could never be fit for spending eternity with God even if my sins are paid for.. I always wished that God would help me to be good.. basically change me in the afterlife. And I recently learned that that is exactly what happens. What we struggle with in this life will disappear in the next. Which is one of the reasons why Heaven is “Heaven”. We’ve just got to make the effort while we are here.. to show God that it’s what we want.. to please Him and love Him as He has proven His love for us.
The popular belief that a “loving” God wouldn’t punish us so severely is a trap. It seems to make sense on the surface but that’s only because we lack the reverence and understanding of God and Who He is. Our lack of understanding won’t change Who God is and His relation to sin… it won’t change what is required to deal with it.
The Bible explains all of this.. it has all the answers. And that is why we are told to look to the Bible for the answers in all matters.. especially the matter of the afterlife.
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Kathy,
THIS is the life we get. We don’t SIN – we make mistakes; it’s the human condition. We apologize, we make amends and we learn from the mistakes we make (hopefully!).
Reading your latest comment is like reading a script from any fundamentalist christian – your pastors pound that message into your heads and you CANNOT think for yourselves; when provoked you just vomit what you’ve been force-fed back out.
Kathy, YOU ARE A GOOD PERSON. Yes, you, on your own. You do not need an invisible friend. You are just fine the way you are.
Remember, Kathy – those pastors depend heavily on keeping people slavishly devoted to them and their ideas. They have to keep you putting money in the collection plate. The more they can convince you that you are completely depraved and filthy, the more you’ll feel you must go back for your weekly ‘bath’. I feel bad for you, that you have been so completely taken in and have become a pawn in a power grab.
Show some spunk, Kathy – tell him to piss off. For your own – and your daughter’s – sake.
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“We cannot love God without free will.” – what if you had a date with a guy, Kathy, who said, “Love me, or die a painful, horrible death!” Would you feel like he was offering you the exercise of your free will? Could you even consider loving him under those conditions?
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“Many will refuse to accept this because you don’t want to accept God’s position as your Creator and your LORD. You don’t want to acknowledge His perfect Holiness and His sovereignty.” – but what you don’t get, Kathy, is that if your god actually gave us free will – freely, no tricks up the sleeve of his robe – then he should be OK with that, unless, of course , he made us in order to have his own little set of sea monkeys who would do tricks for him and sing his praises, which only a weak ego would require.
“Because that would require you to be humble and acknowledge that you are a sinner and that your fate is in His control.” – again, if he truly gave me unconditional free will, then my fate shouldn’t BE under his control, otherwise, my will isn’t free, and he’s personally responsible for any “evil” I commit. You can’t have it both ways, Kath, I know you’d like to —
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“That it required God’s Son to pay for the penalty for our sins tells us of the SERIOUSNESS of sin.. and it also tells us how much God LOVES us.” – who made the rules that this or that behavior was “sin,” and who decided what the penalty should be? THAT’s the one who caused the problem!
“But, as Jesus said.. all things are possible with God.” – let me translate that a bit more accurately for you, Kathy – “But, as an anonymous author who never met him said that Yeshua said.. all things are possible with God.” Isn’t that much more accurate?
“I often thought that no matter how hard I try, I could never be fit for spending eternity with God even if my sins are paid for..” – well, that would certainly be accurate if you had a god that prized intellect above all else, but you’re in luck, the Bible is awash with statements telling us that too much knowledge is a dangerous thing – trust me, you’ll fit right in —
The truth is, you’ll be decaying in the ground, just like the rest of us, and you’ll never know that you jumped through all of those hoops for nothing, that you could have lived a joyful, guilt-free life like the rest of us, but chose instead to restrict it to the rules established by Bronze Age priests who wanted to control a nomadic people and enjoy a good diet of sacrificial lambchops, with mint jelly and possibly a nice baked potato with a garden salad – pretty good wages in those days, for a little mumbo-jumbo. Of course that’s all been refined now into mega-churches and pastors with thousand-dollar suits and Rolls-Royces, but then that’s progress, isn’t it?
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“Kathy, YOU ARE A GOOD PERSON. Yes, you, on your own. You do not need an invisible friend. You are just fine the way you are.” – I believe that’s true, Carmen, though I have no respect for her, I DO think she’s probably a good person. Despite our differences, I certainly don’t dislike her.
Sadly, though she’s only in her 20’s, I feel it’s too late for her – they’ve gotten such deep hooks into her, that she’ll spend the rest of her pathetic life as a sheep. I could be
wro– not entirely correct – as there are many on this board who were deeply involved, yet managed to climb out of it.LikeLike
arch, I wrote that out quickly and realized that I should have added the following words:
Kathy, the people who have valiantly tried to present logic and reason to you in these thousands of comments are doing so for one reason: they also KNOW you are a good person who has been hoodwinked – like lots of other people have been.
Run, Kathy, RUN.
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