Well, after breaking 2000 comments on the previous thread, I think it’s time to move to a new one. Feel free to continue the conversation here.
Also, I want to make a note about future posts. The tone on this blog for the last month or so has been decidedly different than what it used to be. While that’s definitely made things interesting, I’d like to move back to a tone more in line with the way things used to be. So going forward, I want the comments on all new posts to remain civil. We can all make our points, and I expect to see a wide range of opinions. But I don’t want to get into name-calling and bashing when we can’t all agree on particular issues. Let’s try to stay focused on the points and not get side-tracked with personal stuff. Let’s also keep each comment substantive so we don’t rack up so many comments in such a short period of time that it’s hard for everyone to keep track.
If you don’t feel like you can participate within those guidelines, then feel free to continue posting within this thread (and any future “Kathy” threads, if they’re needed), because I won’t be enforcing any guidelines here. But if you want to comment on any other posts, you’ll need to abide by the rules I just laid out. Otherwise, your comment will be subject to deletion, and after a warning, you might find yourself banned from at least that thread, if not the entire blog.
If there are any questions, let me know.
Thanks
The story so far, Kathy, as I see it:
• You refuse to acknowledge that Moses didn’t write the first five books of the Bible, despite the fact that there is evidence that this is so, and evidence as to who those four groups were who actually DID write them, and when and where they wrote, and when, where, and by whom the four contributions were edited and compiled into the Torah, which ultimately became the Septuagint.
• You take the word of 3000-year old Jewish priests, regarding the origin of the universe and the evolution of life on this planet – men who knew nothing of science – over all of the knowledge that has been accumulated over the past 3000 years.
• You refuse to acknowledge that there is no evidence that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel, Joseph, Moses, or Joshua ever existed.
• You refuse to acknowledge that there is no evidence that ANYone went up a magic mountain and came down with stone tablets autographed by a god – in fact, even the Bible can’t agree on which mountain that was – one account says Horeb, another says Sinai.
• You refuse to acknowledge that the Biblical prophecies were intended for the time, not for the distant future – Ezekiel, in captivity in Babylon, predicted the Jews would return and rebuild the temple. This wasn’t much of a stretch, considering that he had available to him, then-current information regarding relations between the Babylonians and the Persians, and knew that if freed, the Jews, held against their will, would likely return to their homeland and rebuild the most important structure in their culture. It was a bit like betting on a horse – you study the stats and make your pick, and if it wins, it not a prophecy coming true, it’s just a good prediction, based on available facts. Many prophecies of the Bible were written AFTER they happened, then inserted into a story of an earlier time.
• You refuse to acknowledge that the Gospel writers were unknown authors who never met Yeshua, and are basing their books on decades-old hearsay information. In fact, you appear to refuse to acknowledge that your “savior’s” name is even Yeshua, insisting on continuing to call him by the Greek translation of his name.
When the nonsense is stripped from your book, you have a skeleton of history left, but there’s no magic in that, just ordinary people putting one foot in front of the other, trying to survive in a hostile land.
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But you’re not a bad person, just a naive one who was caught early and programmed heavily.
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It doesn’t matter, Carmen – her religion is so cunningly crafted, that if anything anyone has to say against it begins to make sense, it HAS to be Satan trying to deceive her, and so she prays all the harder to an invisible god for the strength to ignore and resist him – she prays for tunnel vision.
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Kathy,
Why does free will necessitate sin?
I will eat dinner tonight. The world is my oyster. I thought about ordering a pizza but instead I’m going to cook spaghetti. That’s free will. I have a choice and I’m not threatened over that choice. I can choose freely without feeling coerced into doing so. Free will.
Being coerced into submission with the threat of hell looming is not free will. I don’t know how you can’t understand this.
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I took a stroll yesterday at 7:30 in the morning (and learned that 7:30 actually comes TWICE a day!) with a beautiful, freckle-faced, red-headed 8-year old girl and her puppy, and I’ll take her love over that of an invisible god who sends his son to die horribly, any day of the week.
Allegedly, Gertrude Stein’s last words (immortalized by Peggy Lee) were, “Is that all there is?” – if you do it right, it’s enough.
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I could be wro – not entirely correct – as there are many on this board who were deeply involved, yet managed to climb out of it.
Zoe waves her hand – one of the many.
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I found this interesting statement in The Geological Society of America’s article, “The evolution of creationism“:
Remind you of anyone, William?
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Tough climb, Zoe?
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kathy,
“Fine. Even though I HAVE explained how Christian martyrdom is more compelling overall.. I’ll just ask, again, for you to give your examples of the “better” martyr evidence from other religions since you disagree.” – Kathy
I don’t think any are better. A person dying for a cause is a person dying for a cause, and the only thing it’s evidence for is their devotion to that cause.
“So, you now agree that I am being objective.. so now let’s settle if YOU are applying objectivity. You say my examples are “stupid”.. which ones and why?? Why didn’t you give the examples.. why do I have to ask?? Why am I always having to ask for specifics with atheists/ liberals.. repeatedly.” – Kathy
No, I don’t agree. I’m just not going to argue over it. I don’t care enough to peruse 3 to 4K comments to dig up what’s obvious to any casual reader. And I and as well as others have copy and pasted some of your examples of non-objectivity after they have occurred. I will not go back and do it again, so I am saying I will not argue that point.
“Again, I’ll ask what are my words that indicate I haven’t thought all of this over.. I’m fully aware of the other religions and how hard it would be to leave their faith.. yet many STILL do.. risking their lives.” – Kathy
And many leave Christianity for other religions… including many who switch over to islam.
“and what all of you ignore, due to lack of objectivity.. and why do I make that accusation? Because I’ve gotten no answers to my question of which religion, if not Christianity, has more evidence.. I’ve gotten nothing.. no answers to argue against my claim and YET.. no acknowledgement that Christianity does have the most compelling evidence…” – Kathy
You have been answered. I don’t think one is more true in their divine claims than the other. And if you don’t true in their divine claims, in what sense are you asking if they’re true?
And you havent provided any evidence that backs up your claim that christiantiy has more credentials – credentials of what, I don’t know. This is the most asinine conversation I’ve ever had. I don’t really know what to say because it is so devoid of reason or logic.
“What isn’t being understood is the seriousness of sin. And what exactly sin is. It’s the complete opposite of God and Who He is. Sin cannot have a place in eternal life with God” – Kathy
So murdering women and children helps rid the world of sin? How did that workout and does it even make sense?
“It starts with love and free will. Love cannot exist without free will. We cannot love God without free will. But with free will comes sin. It’s impossible to be sinless human beings while also having free will. So, this IS the problem that God needed to resolve in order for us, His creation, to be able to spend eternity with Him.” – Kathy
If it’s a problem, it’s one god created. He made us to have freewill, and if freewill means there will be sin, then god is punishing people for the way he made them. And if the holy spirit guides you to a better understanding, then it would be helpful if the holy spirit would guide everyone and show them the right way. Then of people didn’t obey, it wouldn’t have anything to with their honest lack of belief.
“Sin is an offense to God’s very Being. Sin is breaking God’s laws.” – Kathy
And how do we know his laws, Kathy? Do we follow what men say or what god says? I guess, to you, we should follow what men say about god, as long it’s only what the men who wrote the bible say that god said – is that right? how do we know we can trust the men who wrote the bible? Well the bible of course. And martyrs, but only christain martyrs. And tyre – what a marvelous example of fulfilled prophecy. Ezekiel said it wouldn’t be there anymore, and even if tyre is there, which it is, there is a rectangular field that is empty on mainland tyre, so it’s fulfilled as long as you look at the field and ignore the rest of tyre. very objective.
“So, the penalty for sin is severe and rightly so.. “ – Kathy
Yeah, it makes sense now that not just one 18 month old baby boy should be hacked into pieces after watching his parents cut down, but that all the male children should be killed too, because sin (like murder) is so bad. At least the virgin girls were spared – they must have been grateful. God is god and is incapable of evil… so murdering children and stealing virgin girls couldn’t be evil… you’ll be with good people in heaven.
“The Bible explains all of this.. it has all the answers. “ – Kathy
The bible says it has all the answers, but the truth is that it does not. you should read the “emperor’s new clothes.” It applies.
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“Zoe waves her hand – one of the many.”
Ruth waves to her fellow climber.
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“A person dying for a cause is a person dying for a cause, and the only thing it’s evidence for is their devotion to that cause.” – she’s been told that at LEAST a dozen times!
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“Many will refuse to accept this because you don’t want to accept God’s position as your Creator and your LORD. You don’t want to acknowledge His perfect Holiness and His sovereignty.” – kathy
kathy, this is one of the reasons we’re having a hard time having a discussion. Our position, at least mine, has nothing to do with “wants.” It has to do with being convinced.
we’re talking about the merits of the bible on the blog post. You want to call us all un-objective while saying things like the above. It shows you’re not paying attention. It shows that the god of the bible is your default.
If you believe in him, that’s fine. If you’re convinced by christian only martyrs, 40 authors over 1500 years, the prophecy of tyre and existence, that’s fine too – but while you’re very convinced, it should be easy to see why others are not.
You refuse to admit it or just cant see it – either way, this is an example of lacking objectivity.
you say christian martyrs are better than sihk, muslim, tibeten and witch martyrs, but havent shown how – other than saying a lot of muslim martyrs blow people up… But you havent explained the rest of them and you havent explained why blowing people up is worse than your OT commanding the slaughter of children.
You havent explained anything. Why dont you take a weekend off, starting now, and reread through all three threads. we can all do it. Come back Monday and resume our discussion.
How does that sound?
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“A person dying for a cause is a person dying for a cause, and the only thing it’s evidence for is their devotion to that cause.” – she’s been told that at LEAST a dozen times!- arch
I’d say many more times than that. I really dont understand how this is difficult to understand.
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I ask for empirical evidence and Kathy delivers a sermon. So here’s the OBJECTIVE response from the apostle Paul:
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet” 1 Timothy 2:12
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I saw you made mention of Kathy being 20ish? And mention of a daughter.
Arch, though I don’t know Kathy, there is a sense that I know her intimately. I could be Kathy. The difference now is (if she is in her 20’s) she can go on the internet and read all manner of discussion. I only had Christian books and my Bibles an my Unger’s and my Strong’s and my Ravi Zacharias and my Josh McDowell and my C.S. Lewis and my Family Life Radio and Dr. James Dobson and Chuck Swindoll and my books on cults, Henry Morris, Dr. Hugh Ross, video cassettes, my family history, my own experiences and at the age of 26 beginning to throw myself back into my sure foundation . . . a literal, conservative evangelical, fundamentalist, born-again, Bible-preaching, KJV (only), independent Baptist church.
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Zoe – I believe it was Ruth who originally mentioned she had a 6-year old daughter. With all of that indoctrination behind you, you might be interested in the article I mentioned above, about the origins of the Creationist movement in the US.
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Speaking of children –
I just got back from a walk with my grandkids, and at one point we looked down a steep bank. My 5-yr-old grandson said, “About how far is it to the bottom, Nannie?” I replied, “Probably about 50 feet”. To which he responded, “You mean GROWN UP feet?” 🙂
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for a lot of devout believers, citations and references don’t mean anything, because they use the bible as their measure; they use the bible to see if the citations, sources and references hold up – they do not see if the bible holds up under scrutiny, to them it’s the other way around.
the bible is right – everything else is suspect until the bible shows whether it can be trusted or not.
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If I could get Kathy to read one book, it would be The Age of Reason, by Thomas Paine, specifically Part 2.
It can be read here for free, the Kindle version can be gotten here for just $.99, and you can even listen to the audio version here (for free).
To a “by-the-book” Christian, few things are as eye-opening as Paine’s examination.
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…citations and references don’t mean anything, because they use the bible as their measure; they use the bible to see if the citations, sources and references hold up – they do not see if the bible holds up under scrutiny, to them it’s the other way around.
the bible is right – everything else is suspect until the bible shows whether it can be trusted or not.
Very much this. For a very long time this is how I viewed other material. Everything was subject to whether or not it agreed with the Bible. ANY information to the contrary was quickly discarded as invalid because it didn’t match up to the truth of God’s word.
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ruth, yes, I was speaking from experience i’m ashamed to say.
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I was the same way. That’s why Paine’s book was so important to me — it was the first I read that used the Bible to critique the Bible.
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OK Carmen, we’ll swap grandchildren stories, while looking for our bi-focals that are on top of our heads:
My little red-headed granddaughter stayed with me a couple of nights ago, as mentioned earlier. We playfully argue all the time. I have an old pair of jeans I do yard work in – I’d worn them the day before, and put them back on that morning, as I had more work to do.
Noticing this, the red-head said, “Don’t you ever change pants? You wear the same pants every day!”
I thought I had her when I snapped back, “Yeah, well, YOU wear the same FRECKLES every day!”
Without a second’s hesitation, the 8-year old popped back, “Yeah, but I WASH them!”
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Without a second’s hesitation, the 8-year old popped back, “Yeah, but I WASH them!”
clever girl
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“clever girl” – runs in the family —
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