Well, after breaking 2000 comments on the previous thread, I think it’s time to move to a new one. Feel free to continue the conversation here.
Also, I want to make a note about future posts. The tone on this blog for the last month or so has been decidedly different than what it used to be. While that’s definitely made things interesting, I’d like to move back to a tone more in line with the way things used to be. So going forward, I want the comments on all new posts to remain civil. We can all make our points, and I expect to see a wide range of opinions. But I don’t want to get into name-calling and bashing when we can’t all agree on particular issues. Let’s try to stay focused on the points and not get side-tracked with personal stuff. Let’s also keep each comment substantive so we don’t rack up so many comments in such a short period of time that it’s hard for everyone to keep track.
If you don’t feel like you can participate within those guidelines, then feel free to continue posting within this thread (and any future “Kathy” threads, if they’re needed), because I won’t be enforcing any guidelines here. But if you want to comment on any other posts, you’ll need to abide by the rules I just laid out. Otherwise, your comment will be subject to deletion, and after a warning, you might find yourself banned from at least that thread, if not the entire blog.
If there are any questions, let me know.
Thanks
Arch,
““For 2 thousand years there HAS been a consensus of who the authors are believed to be based on the evidence we have.”
Question, Kathy – for how many MORE than 2000 years was it believed that the earth was flat? IS it flat? Consensus was wrong, wasn’t it? That consensus was based on ignorance, as is yours.”
This is so dumb. So, you acknowledge that the consensus is or “was” that those are the authors.. so that would mean that YOU, who disagrees should show the proof that it is no longer true. That’s where our debate led. And the consensus lasted into the 20th century at least.. you’re the one who should prove that it’s no longer the case AND provide the evidence that supports the claim that they are not the authors. Why can’t you do this??
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Arch,
“50/50 chance, Kathy, that your god a created being with a Creator. Can’t get more logical than that.. I’m using MATH. And you can’t disprove this statistic.”
The Bible tells us that God always existed.
“2 claims that you are welcome to try and disprove..
• There is no empirical (by your standards) evidence that your god is a created being.
• There is no empirical evidence that your god is not a created being.
The 50/50 odds are based on your own standards of empirical evidence, that your god is a created being.”
Is this supposed to disprove my claim somehow? Is this your “answer” to my claim that it’s a
50/50 chance you are a created being Arch? Because it doesn’t answer or argue anything..
this is just more liberal desperation and dishonesty. Why can’t you just acknowledge that my odds are correct based on the atheist’s requirements?
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“…we should use info from more scholarly sources than that of the Catholic church or anyone else that is deliberately concealing the truth as they are.” – I can accept that they are “deliberately concealing the truth” when it comes to their game of musical pedophile priests, but I’ve found them especially forthcoming on other matters regarding the Bible, especially when it comes to dating the domestication of camels, which has nothing to do with promoting Pauline doctrine.
Frankly, I’m not a big Paul fan myself, I believe he hijacked the original philosophy.
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Arch,
“Kathy’s “consensus” includes illiterate, superstitious shepherds and well, basically people like you and Kathy, who’ll believe anything that comes down the pike as long as it’s stamped, Hecho en Cielo, as opposed to men and women who have made it their lives’ work to study the scriptures, and the history behind them – not the same as Kathy’s “consensus.”
Wrong again Arch. There are just as many if not more believers who study the Bible as their life’s work.. they desire the truth and THOSE are the people over the centuries who make up the consensus I refer to. And they base their belief on the evidence.. again, I ask, what is your evidence that they are wrong??
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Nan,
“Kathy,
Again, you are demonstrating your refusal to acknowledge Who God is. Try looking at the universe.. it really does display how powerful and complex He is. ~me
PLEASE, Kathy, go to this link. Read the posting (it’s not anti-Christian). Then be sure to click on the link in the first paragraph (“this page”).
After you do this, please come back and explain to me/us exactly who God is.”
Nan, you’ve already given me this link/ argument. The Bible explains who God is. I don’t understand why you make the assumption that you do.. that because the universe is so vast that somehow argues that the Bible isn’t true. It doesn’t. There is just as much reason to believe the universe is created for us as not.
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Laurie,
I agree that appealing to the majority (Argumentum ad populum) constitutes a logical fallacy. Nonetheless, Kathy claims such consensus is compelling “proof” for Christianity’s truthfulness, so pointing to a Christian source (the only kind she’ll ever accept) is the only way to demonstrate that no such consensus exists. And there’s no denying that RCC doctrine follows a decidely Pauline bent. However, I’m reluctant to follow suit in claiming it does so for nefarious purposes when Hanlon’s Razor will suffice.
I am curious though: Which scriptures do you consider inspired? And how did you set about making that determination?
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“There are just as many if not more believers who study the Bible as their life’s work.. they desire the truth and THOSE are the people over the centuries who make up the consensus I refer to.” – you’re referring to lay people, people like yourself, loaded with bias and lacking objectivity, not actual, accredited, biblical scholars. You’re a shining example of these – you know next to nothing about the bible’s actual history, and have proven that repeatedly.
As Laurie once said, in a comment that could be applied directly to you, “Most everyone who has a belief will only study what fits into that belief, and can not be trusted. It sound awful to say, but it is true.“
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Arch,
” you’re referring to lay people, people like yourself, loaded with bias and lacking objectivity, not actual, accredited, biblical scholars. You’re a shining example of these – you know next to nothing about the bible’s actual history, and have proven that repeatedly.”
No, I’m not Arch.. many biblical scholars are believers. And I don’t claim to know a lot about the history of the Bible.. I’m learning as I go along.
But here’s the thing Arch.. as I go along… I am not going to take your word for it, that’s not learning to me, that’s indoctrination. You’ve got to provide your sources and evidence for these claims you’ve made.
“As Laurie once said, in a comment that could be applied directly to you, “Most everyone who has a belief will only study what fits into that belief, and can not be trusted. It sound awful to say, but it is true.“
Prove it Arch.. give some examples of this.. making the claim without backing it up, from a person whose bias and lack of objectivity I HAVE proven, is absolutely worthless.
I couldn’t believe my eyes when I read your words talking about “objective” scholars. Clearly you hold a different standard of objective for yourself as you assume of others, who just happen to agree with you. You don’t know “objective” Arch, no one here does.
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Arch, cont..
““As Laurie once said, in a comment that could be applied directly to you, “Most everyone who has a belief will only study what fits into that belief, and can not be trusted. It sound awful to say, but it is true.“
And this is YOU and all atheists. You dismiss any evidence that doesn’t support your belief that God doesn’t exist. You’ve proven that repeatedly.
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Words that Kathy Doesn’t Understand
1. Objectivity
2. Proof
3. Fact
4. Evidence
5. Compelling
6. Debate
Would anyone care to add to the list?
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“You dismiss any evidence that doesn’t support your belief that God doesn’t exist. You’ve proven that repeatedly.” – DISMISS? I’ve waited nearly six weeks for you to offer some evidence that your god exists, and you’ve yet to offer anything I COULD dismiss!
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Hi guys, consider this the 2-minute warning.
We’ve broken 1000 comments on this thread now, and I don’t think it warrants another one. So if anyone has any “closing arguments,” it would be a good idea to lay them out soon. I’ll probably close this thread down in the next day or two.
Thanks 🙂
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Aw Dad, you never let us have any fun!
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Yes, but it’s getting way past your bedtime! 😉
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Man –!
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Ron,
I believe in the inspiration of the scriptures as a whole, but it wasn’t always so. The whole book is one massive chiastic structure that is full of thematic connections, and in an amazing way tells the end from the beginning, and repeats the same story over and over again. If you study it from a hebraic perspective, it all works together flawlessly , but from an English speaking perspective it is full of contradictions and nothing makes any sense. It also helps to read it from the beginning.
Ya told his people that he was going to test them by sending a false prophet, to see if they would keep His commandments. Then he provided several prophecies to help us figure out who it was. He would be a Benjamite, he would teach that the law was done away with, he would be like balaam, would teach to eat meat sacrificed to idols, and on and on. Then he sent the anointed one, who said if anyone sees me in the desert or wilderness go not after them, for no one will see me till every eye beholds me at my coming. He also made it very clear that he had only 12 apostles, but here comes Paul claiming to have seen him in the desert , the 13th apostle with 13 books making up the majority of the new testament and new religion. Numbers are also very significant in the scriptures, 13 being a bad number. It is more than I could write on 500 pages, but I keep thinking one day I will try.
Look up the chiastic structures someday, it will blow your mind! The 7 branches of the menorah, 7 days of creation, 7 feasts of YHWH, and seven churches in the revelation. Once you start to see it, you will never read the scriptures the same again. The thematic connections are everywhere. You can see Yahusha in almost every story, Moses, Joshua, Joseph and so on. You can see Paul to, in king Saul, balaam, and the false prophet in 1 kings 13. This book is so amazing that even without archeological evidence or historians I know there is a God. A hundred mensa brains together in one room couldn’t write this book!
Historians are definitely an added bonus though! Not sure if Kathy already discussed this, but the Jewish sages recorded some pretty compelling evidence! And to make it even better, it was evidence that made them look bad yet they recorded it anyway.
It is recorded that the last 40 year’s the temple stood the doors would open and shut by themselves, they drew a black stone every year (which statistically is impossible) the last candle on the menorah went out, and the scarlet cord on Yom Kippur never turned white again! For forty years!
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“It is more than I could write on 500 pages, but I keep thinking one day I will try.” – Seriously, Laurie – you should. You know I think it’s all a crock of BS, but the little bit you told in that comment, I found fascinating. I would read such a book if you wrote it – I’m rarely more than semi-serious about anything, but about this, I’m serious, you should write it, and if not now, when?
“It is recorded that the last 40 year’s the temple stood the doors would open and shut by themselves, they drew a black stone every year (which statistically is impossible) the last candle on the menorah went out, and the scarlet cord on Yom Kippur never turned white again! For forty years!”
Who ya gonna call?
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Understand, I didn’t say i would buy it, but I would read it!
And Kathy – just so you have at least a clue as to what to work toward – Laurie is someone worthy of debating. You could learn from her.
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arch, unfortunately that video is not available ‘in (my) country’. .but I remember when the movie first came out. Our youngest (who is 30 now) had just learned to walk. .. .oh, my! Time goes by, doesn’t it??
Do you suppose Kathy learned ANYTHING from this ‘book’?? (I mean Nate’s ‘letters’) I fervently hope so. You’ve all tried so valiantly to get her to remove the embedded god goggles. .. hat tip to all of you!
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Not a chance, Carmen – you can lead a theist to knowledge, but you can’t make her think.
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Ghostbusters! Lol!
Thanks for the kind words Kathy. I’m no super genius like mensa over here, but luckily you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to see some things right! 😉
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It will be truly a sad day when Nate closes this thread,:-( However will we entertain ourselves if we can’t “debate” with Kathy? Perhaps she will pop up on another blog. We can only hope.
**tongue in cheek**
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Thank…God?
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nicely done, Josh 😉
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