Well, after breaking 2000 comments on the previous thread, I think it’s time to move to a new one. Feel free to continue the conversation here.
Also, I want to make a note about future posts. The tone on this blog for the last month or so has been decidedly different than what it used to be. While that’s definitely made things interesting, I’d like to move back to a tone more in line with the way things used to be. So going forward, I want the comments on all new posts to remain civil. We can all make our points, and I expect to see a wide range of opinions. But I don’t want to get into name-calling and bashing when we can’t all agree on particular issues. Let’s try to stay focused on the points and not get side-tracked with personal stuff. Let’s also keep each comment substantive so we don’t rack up so many comments in such a short period of time that it’s hard for everyone to keep track.
If you don’t feel like you can participate within those guidelines, then feel free to continue posting within this thread (and any future “Kathy” threads, if they’re needed), because I won’t be enforcing any guidelines here. But if you want to comment on any other posts, you’ll need to abide by the rules I just laid out. Otherwise, your comment will be subject to deletion, and after a warning, you might find yourself banned from at least that thread, if not the entire blog.
If there are any questions, let me know.
Thanks
William,
” Most muslims dont want ISIS or Al Qaeda or even the Taliban being in charge – they dont really want chrstians telling what to do either, i guess – but you could understand that since you wouldnt muslims telling you what to do. ”
What is your evidence for this claim William? It’s in their very book to spread Islam by force. Muslims in western countries might not support that openly but again, it’s in their very holy book.. it’s what their prophet demands. And it’s nothing but dishonest propaganda to claim that Christians are “telling” anyone what to do.
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William,
“not according to the bible. It was the Israelite who were the aggressors in many cases.”
Which cases? cite the passages please.
“If killing babies and stealing virgin girls is bad, then your god is bad. if your god is not bad, the killing babies and stealing virgin girls isnt bad. ”
Sorry, it’s not that simple. This is another example of a liberal lacking an open mind. You don’t understand, you don’t WANT to understand God and His position in the big picture.
“look, all of these religions are based on the claims of men and each one claims that it is the only one. Such claims have led to many of the divisions and alienations we have today. ”
I understand your point here.. but you ignore that one CAN be the correct “religion”. And you ignore the importance of finding the Truth of which one it is. Or, disproving the belief that we are created beings.. or again, just providing a VALID argument.. which no one has.
some guys said that a 33 year old man, born of a virgin, was the son of god, that he died for everyone’s sins as long as they believed he was the son of god. they also claimed that after he died, that he rose from the grave and flew into heaven with the promise that he’d return soon…
all you have provided as evidence for this tale is:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.”
Those Christian martyrs whose testimony of martyrdom far exceeds (overall) any martyrdom by other religions, as I’ve adequately proven over and over.. those martyrs include the “some guys” who told us about the Man born of a virgin. They gave their lives along with hundreds/ thousands of others to testify to this strong belief.
You fail to discern the differences of the circumstances and therefore the power of the testimony of martyrdom.. and this is my proof of your lack of objectivity. You, just like Nate, cannot bring yourself to acknowledge that Christianity has the most compelling evidence and the most compelling testimony of martyrdom.
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“And Arch.. you don’t understand what it means to back up your accusations.. you’re like
a child.. you just say it and think that’s enough” – Not necessary, your refusal to look at any of our evidence backs them up for me – thanks for that, saves me the trouble.
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“those radical Muslims who kill people and want to establish a caliphate are nothing compared to us violent Christians” – I said, religion, Kathy – that includes yours and theirs. I’m a non-discriminating religion-hater.
And speaking of “violent Chriistians,” who was it that started the war in Iraq, in a search for fabricated Weapons of Mass Destruction, that turned half the Muslim world against the US?
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“…it’s nothing but dishonest propaganda to claim that Christians are ‘telling’ anyone what to do.” – that’s such a crock that even YOU must know it is!
Which religious group in the US is trying to circumvent the 1st Amendment to the Constitution by forcing people of all philosophies, religious or otherwise, to confront Judeo/Christian religious symbols in, and on the lawns of, public buildings?
Which religious group in the US is mandating Judeo/Christian prayers at Governmental meetings and Public School athletic activities, as well as school assemblies?
Which religious group in the US is trying to get Judeo/Christian prayer and the teaching of Creationism into Public schools?
Which religious group in the US is trying to tell women what they can and can’t do with their bodies?
Which religious group in the US is trying to tell people who, and who they cannot, marry?
(Hint: it ain’t the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster –)
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“Or, disproving the belief that we are created beings..” – you don’t get it Kathy – no one has to DISprove that which has never first been proven. You prove that we are, then we will refute your proof – that’s how debate works – you’d know that if you had ever taken a classs. In court, the prosecution attempts to prove their case, then the defense attempts to invalidate the prosecution’s argument. We’re still waiting for you to prove your case.
And if you try to go back to your old saw that “existence is proof of creation,” then be prepared to prove that the existence of your god is somehow exempt from that.
“Christianity has the most compelling evidence and the most compelling testimony of martyrdom – so you’re saying, that if a Muslim killed you because of your religion (which would make you a martyr), and you were shoved into a hole in the ground and rotted, like everyone else, and never rose again, or lived again, or ever saw the fictitious “kingdom of heaven,” that the simple fact of your death would somehow prove the truth of your religion, no matter how false it was? Does that REALLY make any sense? Even to you?
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YO! Lau-rie! (“Rocky”!) – how’s them camels comin’ along? Should I expect them to be coming from the East?
BTW (& FYI) – I don’t know how well you know Nan, of NAN’S NOTEBOOK, but she shares your feelings about Paul.
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Nate – when this began, you had 274 members, you’ve since added 24. Granted, they may just be here for the 3-ring circus, but you never know. If you continue to generate controversial posts, you may keep them.
What’s going on with Matt? Haven’t heard a peep out of him – blog-wise – in forever. Even wrote him an email last week or two, but no answer. Do you know if he’s OK?
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Arch,
““…it’s nothing but dishonest propaganda to claim that Christians are ‘telling’ anyone what to do.” – that’s such a crock that even YOU must know it is!
Which religious group in the US is trying to circumvent the 1st Amendment to the Constitution by forcing people of all philosophies, religious or otherwise, to confront Judeo/Christian religious symbols in, and on the lawns of, public buildings? ”
No one is being “forced” to do anything here. And all are free to put their own symbols on the same lawns.
“Which religious group in the US is mandating Judeo/Christian prayers at Governmental meetings and Public School athletic activities, as well as school assemblies?”
Again, there is no “forcing” of anyone to pray.
“Which religious group in the US is trying to get Judeo/Christian prayer and the teaching of Creationism into Public schools?”
Again, no forcing of anyone to pray. And no forcing anyone to accept creationism.. like there is for man evolving from monkeys.
“Which religious group in the US is trying to tell women what they can and can’t do with their bodies?”
Again, not true. Women can do whatever they want, which includes not having sex or having protected sex. Once another life is involved, it’s not just “their bodies” anymore.
Which religious group in the US is trying to tell people who, and who they cannot, marry?”
More leftist propaganda. People are FREE to marry anyone under the def. of marriage. And people are FREE to commit for life to anyone they choose, live with whomever they choose etc.
We don’t have a right to redefine institutions.
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“No one is being ‘forced’ to do anything here. And all are free to put their own symbols on the same lawns.” – The government places those icons there, at taxpayer expense, violating the first amendment by favoring one religion over another. When the government (Federal, State, County, Munincipal) begins funding statues of Ganesh, the Hindu elephant-headed boy, let me know.
“Again, there is no ‘forcing’ of anyone to pray.” – you really can’t see the difference, can you, between being “forced to pray,” and attending a government-sponsored function where one is forced to be exposed to Judeo/Christian prayers? What if you had to attend a government function, that opened with everyone rolling out a prayer rug, facing Mecca, then getting on their knees, bowing their heads to the ground, and praying to Allah – even though you weren’t “forced to pray,” how comfortable would you feel in that environment? You truly have no empathy, do you? No ability to put yourself in another’s place, or see things from another’s point of view? Your tunnel-vision amazes me.
“And no forcing anyone to accept creationism.. – accept? No. Be exposed to, in a taxpayer funded organization, taxes paid by Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, and many other religions, who may not subscribe to the Judeo/Christian myths? Yes.
“People are FREE to marry anyone under the def. of marriage.” – under WHOSE definition of marriage?
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“We don’t have a right to redefine institutions.” – What an absurd thing to say, they’re our institutions, and we’ll define them as we please.
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““We don’t have a right to redefine institutions.” – What an absurd thing to say, they’re our institutions, and we’ll define them as we please.”
I agree that we can redefine them.. but that’s not what I said.. we don’t have a “right” to redefine them. It is NOT a “violation” of rights to not redefine them.
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The only violation of rights is in the govt. giving special treatment to married people. They should treat everyone equally.
“The government places those icons there, at taxpayer expense, ..”
Are Christians demanding/ forcing govt. to pay for these things? no.
“What if you had to attend a government function, that opened with everyone rolling out a prayer rug, facing Mecca, then getting on their knees, bowing their heads to the ground, and praying to Allah – ”
If I were in the Middle East, I would accept it as their way of life in THEIR country. And that would still hold true if I became a citizen.
Sorry to break it to you Arch, but it was CHRISTIAN values and beliefs that played in major role in forming this country… it wasn’t Islam or Mormonism or Buddhism or any other religion.
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kathy,
“not according to the bible. It was the Israelite who were the aggressors in many cases.” Which cases? cite the passages please.” – Kathy
Read the book of Joshua. It wasn’t the Israelites that were attacked. The Canaanites were living in their homes when the Israelites invaded and began slaughtering everyone, to include the women and children and in a few cases, saved the virgin girls for themselves.
In regard to this genocide and virgin stealing you said,
“Sorry, it’s not that simple. This is another example of a liberal lacking an open mind. You don’t understand, you don’t WANT to understand God and His position in the big picture.” – Kathy
Don’t apologize, just explain. To you, it’s as simple as “follow this book of claims because it says so,” and “reject islam because they kill people,” but then when it comes to your religion, all of a sudden killing children and stealing virgin girls is “not that simple” to criticize. Please explain.
“I understand your point here.. but you ignore that one CAN be the correct “religion”. And you ignore the importance of finding the Truth of which one it is. Or, disproving the belief that we are created beings.. or again, just providing a VALID argument.. which no one has.” – Kathy
“no one has…” this cannot be said to be more true, than with you. These outrageous claims have fallen way short of being proven true, yet you insist that they be given the benefit of the doubt, when you also insist that everything else that hasn’t been proven true be rejected. This is not unbiased and this is not being objective.
“Those Christian martyrs whose testimony of martyrdom far exceeds (overall) any martyrdom by other religions, as I’ve adequately proven over and over..” – Kathy
How have you proven this over and over? When have you done this? I’ve seen you claim this, but have never seen you back it up.
“You fail to discern the differences of the circumstances and therefore the power of the testimony of martyrdom.. and this is my proof of your lack of objectivity. You, just like Nate, cannot bring yourself to acknowledge that Christianity has the most compelling evidence and the most compelling testimony of martyrdom.” – Kathy
You’re not making sense and you’ve failed, again, to address all the points and questions given to you. I even numbered them, again, but you refuse to address them and insist on dwelling on martyrs… you’ve failed to discern what an intelligent conversation is.
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“Sorry to break it to you Arch, but it was CHRISTIAN values and beliefs that played in major role in forming this country… it wasn’t Islam or Mormonism or Buddhism or any other religion.” – kathy
really? I mean, I have no doubt that the forefathers were heavily influenced by christianity, but which christian values played a major role in forming the USA?
was it baptism?
how about communion?
the golden rule, maybe?
Mandatory church on sundays?
or was it the OT eye for eye thing?
was it the christian value displayed in Acts where the christians distributed their wealth among the brethren so that they had all things common, in a communistic environment? Was it this christian value?
Oh, maybe you mean that there should be no murder? No theft? These are christian values, they’re just values shared by the majority of religions and cultures.
The USA was based more on individual liberties and greco-roman republics.
and several of the founding father werent christian. Thomas Jefferson, even, was a diest, and was heavily critical of the bible.
Thomas paine, author of “common sense” was also a deist. his name may have popped up here at some point. he also wrote “the age of reason” – a book you havent read but criticize as biased and liberal.
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Kathy,
SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS does not make you right. That’s what we get from you.
In case you’ve missed it, these intelligent, passionate, decent and PERSISTENT people are trying to HELP you.
THINK!!
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“I agree that we can redefine them.. but that’s not what I said.. we don’t have a “right” to redefine them. It is NOT a “violation” of rights to not redefine them.”
ANYbody want to give that translation a shot? I thought I was getting fluent in Karthy-ese, but that one is WAY beyond me —
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I guess you don’t know much about how government’s work either – have you ever studied ANYthing that wasn’t in the Bible? What a small, narrow life you must lead. When you die, and there’s no heaven or even continued consciousness, just think of all you’ll have lost, following a fairy tale.
A Senator or a Representative – much like the Tea Party’s shining son, Rick Santorum – will introduce a bill to have something like that paid for, and it will be voted in by other Christian Congressmen. OR, on of their favorites – and one I wish were outlawed – some Christian member of Congress will attach such a bill as a “rider” to another, more essential bill – say funding Social Security or the military budget, or something that they KNOW is 100% sure of passing, and it’s “pass it all or pass none of it,” and their bill to put some stupid statue of Moses in a courthouse building, at taxpayers, of all religions (and of none) will have to pay for. Damn straight, Christians are “demanding/ forcing govt. to pay for these things.”
Please try and learn at least ONE non-religious thing in your lifetime – it will only hurt for a little while, I promise —
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“Sorry to break it to you Arch, but it was CHRISTIAN values and beliefs that played in major role in forming this country… it wasn’t Islam or Mormonism or Buddhism or any other religion.”
Sorry to break it to you Kathy, but it was the values behind the Native American deities, The Great Spirit, Spider Woman, Manitou, and others that played a major role in forming this country, then your Christians, in all their Christian love and charity, came over and massacred them, gave them small pox and venereal disease, and in the spirit of the Israelites in Canaan, wiped them out and took their land.
But that’s not the point – the point was that you wouldn’t like being constantly exposed, if not expected to participate, in the religious services of any religion that wasn’t Christian, and people of other religions have a LEGAL, First Amendment right to the same expectations. Why is it, that your churches and your homes aren’t enough for you? You have to drag your religion out, into public places, and try to cram it down the throats of those who have no interest in it.
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“How have you proven this over and over? When have you done this? I’ve seen you claim this, but have never seen you back it up.” – you just don’t understand, William, you silly twit – according to Kathy’s expert opinion, no one HAS to prove things that “everybody knows” – didn’t you know that? “Tide comes in, tide goes out – you can’t explain that!”
“You, just like Nate, cannot bring yourself to acknowledge that Christianity has the most compelling evidence.” – Kathy
Translation: “You, just like Nate, cannot bring yourself to acknowledge that Christianity has the most compelling evidence of all of the other fairy tales.”
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“What is your evidence for this claim William? It’s in their very book to spread Islam by force. Muslims in western countries might not support that openly but again, it’s in their very holy book.. it’s what their prophet demands.” – kathy
I havent read the koran as closely as you, my knowledge comes from first hand experience in mid east travels and spending time with arabic muslims – along with the ones in the USA and Canada.
where does yours come from, aside from fox news and the preacher’s pulpit?
Additionally, it can be seen by the fact that the majority of the populations in these places fear the Taliban, isis and al quaeda. They rush to help any force that can defeat them. Most of these people want to feed and clothe their children and see them grow into adulthood, nit rush off to slaughter children or steal virgins.
it’s the loud ones that you see. The noisy minority. But they are strong and destructive – you’re right about that, just wrong about most.
but it can also be said that in your very book, god commands the murder of children and the looting of virgin girls. I imagine many christains would say that’s just quote mining and taking things out of context. I imagine many muslims would argue the same regarding your points about their book.
“And it’s nothing but dishonest propaganda to claim that Christians are “telling” anyone what to do.” – kathy
I just said that muslims wouldnt like it, just like you wouldnt like being told what to do by a muslim. Nothing dishonest about that statement.
That being said, in this country, there are some christians who’d like to prevent muslism from building mosques in certain legal locations. They’d like to see muslims kept from public office. some would even like to outlaw the head covering.
You have been saying what a danger and looming threat muslims are. is this just an empty thought or do you think something should be done about these vermin?
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And here’s yet another Founding Father heard from:
“To follow by faith alone, is to follow blindly.”
~~ Benjamin Franklin ~~
“Lighthouses are more useful than churches.”
— Ben Franklin —
And weighing in on the side of religion, we have the Dynamic Duo and friend:
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Here’s an interesting blogpost that discusses the meaning of “proof”:
http://rolltodisbelieve.wordpress.com/2014/08/26/primer-about-proof/
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(I noticed we lost a member this morning – I hope it wasn’t Kathy, I wasn’t finished spanking her yet –)
Since we know that Kathy will never go there, I’ll bring some of it to her:
Americans don’t trust or like experts very much, and we really like the idea of an underdog coming up with something that totally stumps and amazes even the most learned scholars. Combine that attitude with a style of religious observance that stresses personal revelation and has decoupled itself from any kind of theological training, and you inevitably get Christians who are convinced that they are the first (and maybe the only) people in thousands of years who have actually proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that gods exist, and more to the point their own personal conceptualization of their own religion’s god exists in the form they think it takes–and that they know exactly what it wants and what it hates (spoiler: it always wants what that Christian wants and hates whatever that Christian hates).
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