Well, after breaking 2000 comments on the previous thread, I think it’s time to move to a new one. Feel free to continue the conversation here.
Also, I want to make a note about future posts. The tone on this blog for the last month or so has been decidedly different than what it used to be. While that’s definitely made things interesting, I’d like to move back to a tone more in line with the way things used to be. So going forward, I want the comments on all new posts to remain civil. We can all make our points, and I expect to see a wide range of opinions. But I don’t want to get into name-calling and bashing when we can’t all agree on particular issues. Let’s try to stay focused on the points and not get side-tracked with personal stuff. Let’s also keep each comment substantive so we don’t rack up so many comments in such a short period of time that it’s hard for everyone to keep track.
If you don’t feel like you can participate within those guidelines, then feel free to continue posting within this thread (and any future “Kathy” threads, if they’re needed), because I won’t be enforcing any guidelines here. But if you want to comment on any other posts, you’ll need to abide by the rules I just laid out. Otherwise, your comment will be subject to deletion, and after a warning, you might find yourself banned from at least that thread, if not the entire blog.
If there are any questions, let me know.
Thanks
“This isn’t a “problem” of mine Nate.. the problem is in your lack of objectivity. You fail over and over to look at the big picture. You make an assumption that 1) the authors of the OT are liars because they are anonymous. How do you justify this? and 2) you assume overall that the Bible is not God inspired simple because you continuously say to yourself.. “God ‘wouldn’t’ do it that way”. In order to make that assumption, several things are required.. complete knowledge of God and a true vision of the BIG PICTURE. I’ve noticed over and over in your words that you don’t look at the big picture.. only from your narrow perspective and understanding.. which you clearly believe is sufficient in making the judgments about God that you do.” – kathy
I feel like you’re not paying attention.
We think the authors were lying or wrong because they claim big things, like virgins giving birth and like dead people raising from the grave.
We think they’re not trustworthy because the authors cant agree on details. they get historical things wrong and scientific things wrong.
We think they’re wrong because they say that god is one way, but them write him another way.
there are real and tangible things found in the bible. You try and give excuses for them, but you dont realize that whatever you invent to rectify the issues, isnt from the bible – so the assumptions and the imagination work is all yours.
again, if you want to provide more than,
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
…please do so, as it might be more compelling that your “liberal” or “ignorant” comments.
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Nate
August 27, 2014 at 3:50 pm
You’re absolutely wrong about the credentials, Kathy. Of course, if you ever gave any actual evidence, maybe you’d have a case.”
I’ve given plenty of evidence, you’re using Arch’s and William’s tactics now. You’ve given no valid evidence or argument that disproves the evidence that billions of people consider/ have considered when choosing to be Christians.
“Kathy, where is “elohim” explained in the OT as “the father, the son, and the holy spirit”? Simply show that, and I’ll concede the point.”
I never claimed that it is “explained”.. “Elohim” has a plural usage in the OT. And the other passages in the OT support this.
You ignore this very valid argument and instead ask for “empirical” evidence. Again, it’s nothing but an excuse.
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“You are making judgments about God based on your narrow view and extremely limited knowledge.. and also your narrow perception of morality and righteousness. God knows all.. you don’t know those people who were destroyed.. you don’t know what they would have done had they lived. Do you even take these things into consideration?? You prove over and over that you don’t. You only chose to believe what supports your belief/ views” – kathy
and the same could be said in regard to islam.
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William,
“We think the authors were lying or wrong because they claim big things, like virgins giving birth and like dead people raising from the grave.”
And then they gave their lives to testify to this Truth. Which you choose to ignore and give zero credit for.
“We think they’re not trustworthy because the authors cant agree on details. they get historical things wrong and scientific things wrong.”
They’ve agreed amazingly on all of it.. there are some minor discrepancies but that is to be expected when you have accounts by different people.
“We think they’re wrong because they say that god is one way, but them write him another way. ”
Where??
Bottom line.. you think they’re wrong because that’s what you WANT to believe. You don’t take into account the compelling evidence that supports the Truth of Christianity.
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William said:
“and the same could be said in regard to islam.”
That would be true ONLY if Islam had the same evidence to support it’s truth that Christianity does. And you should know that it does not.
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“I’ve given plenty of evidence, you’re using Arch’s and William’s tactics now. You’ve given no valid evidence or argument that disproves the evidence that billions of people consider/ have considered when choosing to be Christians.” – kathy
you dont feel cheap or ridiculous by saying this?
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“That would be true ONLY if Islam had the same evidence to support it’s truth that Christianity does. And you should know that it does not.” – ksthy
kathy, you refuse to look at anything other than sources that are biased toward the bible. Bias is everywhere and no one can fully escape, that’s why we must try and look beyond them.
I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?
read the age of reason. then you could refute it, but not before. Reread all these threds and take a second look at what you’ve provided.
here’s all I’ve seen you provide:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
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Kathy,
There are many reasons for saying most of the OT books are anonymous. For one thing, they simply are. The books of Moses don’t say they were written by Moses. We don’t know who wrote them, but it’s apparent that they were written (or at least edited) by multiple people long after Moses’ death (if he ever really lived).
For one thing, the two different creation accounts in Genesis 1 and 2 show that more than one author was involved. In places like Deut 31, we’re told that Moses wrote the law, but it’s spoken of as though it’s in a different book than the one we’re reading:
If Moses did that, it wasn’t with the book we’re reading. It’s spoken of in past tense, which doesn’t work if he was still writing these very words.
Furthermore, Deuteronomy contains the death, burial, and period of mourning for Moses. How did he write that?
It also refers to things that didn’t happen until long after Moses’ own time. And it doesn’t refer to them in a prophecy, since the tone suggests that the reader would also be aware of these events. For instance, Genesis 14:14 says that Abraham pursued some enemies all the way to the city of Dan. And since he also pursued them to Hobah, north of Damascus, the city of Dan that’s referenced here is obviously the one at the northern end of Israel. But that city didn’t become “Dan” until the Danites took it in Judges 18, hundreds of years after Moses had died.
Even if Moses could have prophesied that event, he woudn’t have written it the way he did, because it would have made no sense to anyone for centuries.
The Books of Moses also use the phrase “to this day” quite a bit, and it’s used to show a long passage of time. The phrase is even used when talking about things within Moses’ own lifetime (Deut 2:22; 10:8; 34:6), which would make no sense if he were the author.
So who wrote these books, and when were they written? And if Moses really did write something, why don’t we have it? The fact is, these kinds of context clues are found throughout the entire Old Testament, not just the first 5 books.
Maybe that’s information that you just weren’t aware of, but that’s why we keep asking you to actually research your own religion. In fact, The Age of Reason covers some of these very points and many more.
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“And then they gave their lives to testify to this Truth. Which you choose to ignore and give zero credit for.” – kathy
there are claims that say that some of the authors were martyred, but i believe ruth even provided sources showing those accounts are vastly different and untrustworthy. besides, i havent ignored martyrs. I’ve talked about it each time you’ve mentioned it, but the only thing a martyr is evidence for is the individuals belief and devotion, not their cause’s veracity.
“They’ve agreed amazingly on all of it.. there are some minor discrepancies but that is to be expected when you have accounts by different people.” – kathy
well “minor” and “major” can be subjective terms, but at least we agree there are errors.
“We think they’re wrong because they say that god is one way, but them write him another way. ”Where??” – kathy
well, we’ve listed several, one of which being that a loving, just, andmerciful god would let babies and toddlers be gruesomely murdered while the virgin girls get stolen. stuff like that…. unless you think terms like “love” “justice” and “mercy” have mysterious or ambiguous meanings along with events like killing babies or taking virgin girls for person uses…
“Bottom line.. you think they’re wrong because that’s what you WANT to believe. You don’t take into account the compelling evidence that supports the Truth of Christianity.” – kathy
do you say this because you only think it’s right because you want it to be? I’ve actyually put a lot of thought, time and study into this, considering and reading widely varying ideas and positions, both for and against – can you say the same?
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William,
“kathy, you refuse to look at anything other than sources that are biased toward the bible. Bias is everywhere and no one can fully escape, that’s why we must try and look beyond them.”
I agree.. we ALL have biases. And the only way to determine who isn’t applying objectivity over their biases is to provide evidence. What is your evidence that I don’t look at anything other than sources that favor the Bible?
“I have. Not saying i’m perfect at it or that I’m right, but the “evidences” you listed arent real evidences. And since you refuse to look at things that are counter to your current beliefs, how can you honestly speak to me about evidences?”
You stating that the evidence I’ve listed isn’t “real” evidence is PROOF of YOUR bias William. I don’t know how you cannot see that.
And I’m here William.. I’m LOOKING at your claimed evidence that counters mine.. I’ve refused nothing within reason.
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These comment “flare-ups” on this series seem to come in waves. It’s a bit like having a bad case of diarrhea for many days. Too bad you aren’t doing a Part 4. 😉
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“I never claimed that it is “explained”.. “Elohim” has a plural usage in the OT. And the other passages in the OT support this.”
Kathy , you are correct that Elohim has a plural usage in the OT. Show us where the Plural Usage points to a Son and a Holy Spirit ? This is certainly your intent by mentioning it at all.
I have searched many Commentaries and no where do I find this.
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Correction: “Elohim , a general word for deity which can also refer to pagan gods. Although plural in form, it almost always appears with a singular verb or adjective. The name, connoting universalism and abstraction, is most appropriate for the God of Creation.” (ETZ Hayim Torah and Commentary)
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Kathy,
You wrote: What is your evidence that I don’t look at anything other than sources that favor the Bible?
Here is “evidence” of just a couple of “sources” you have provided …
http://biblestudyplanet.com/the-trinity-in-the-old-testament/
http://www.theology.edu/canaan.htm
BOTH of these links are Christian websites.
BTW, I doubt very much you checked out Arch’s link related to evidence, so let me share a couple of things from that site:
“A piece of evidence is observable and it doesn’t matter who is doing the observing.”
“Evidence for a real-world claim will involve real-world observable facts.”
“The more startling the claim, the more numerous and certain the observable facts around it should be.”
“An honest truth claim will set up conditions for verification–and for falsification.”
Note: I think Arch expanded on that last one when he wrote that if a god exists, then what can we observe in the universe around us to demonstrate that god’s existence? If a god does not exist, what differences can we see?
And finally, the writer’s coup de grace: “[I]t’s a lot easier to pretend to have evidence for a spiritual idea than to actually demonstrate that evidence.”
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I agree, kc. I’ve seen Karen Armstrong refer to it as something similar to the “royal we.” And as arch has mentioned before, the OT shows markers of early polytheistic thought as well.
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“. . .and where is arch with his limp ho. . .(good one, Zoe!) . . . err. .. SHARP WIT . .. when we need him?”
God’ll get you for that, Carmen! I’ve been working in my yard, like a good little boy.
I really don’t know what I could say to Kathy’s remark that would be funny. The girl is obviously the victim of intense indoctrination, and hopefully, as society gets more and more secular, the day will come when people like those who indoctrinated her, will be imprisoned for child abuse – the only thing that will protect them, in the US at least, would be the First Amendment separation of church and state clause that Kathy and her ilk are trying so hard to do away with.
Careful what you ask for, Kathy – you just might get it.
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“Heh! I’m sure he’s off dealing with the dry rot. Lack of use does that to hoses.”
Ruth, shouldn’t you and Carmen and Neuro be off in the woods somewhere, stirring a big pot and chanting, “Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble –“
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“In fact, that was one of the main points of this discussion. Mind boggling…”
And here you thought this thread was dead! You see, Kathy suffers from (among other things) Obsessive/Compulsive Disorder, and feels compelled to wear us down – she also responds well to Operant Conditioning, so everytime she begins to tire of this and considers leaving, all I have to do, is intimate that she’s gone and she HAS to come back and defend her presence.
I could probably manipulate her into keeping this thread going for another 800 comments or so – she’s been manipulated all her life, it’s easy to take over the steering wheel of a car that’s already in motion.
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You ignore evidence more than anyone I know – we at least READ what we reject, you refuse to do even that, for fear of “wasting your time” – if your time was THAT valuable, you wouldn’t have spent the last six weeks on this thread, getting bitch-slapped right and left and generally making a fool of yourself and Christians in general.
“Elohim” was the collective title of the Canaanite pantheon of gods – there’s no “blatant conflict” there. The “Yahwist Source” that wrote much of Torah, came from the Southern Kingdom, closer to where the earlier Israelites joined forces with the Midianites for a time, likely 50-60 years (personified by the fictional character, “Moses” – “Baby,” in Egyptian), and acquired the Midianites’ obscure desert god, YHWH, while the “Elohist Source,” from the Northern Kingdom, located in Shechem, up near Canaan, were more heavily influenced by the Canaanite’s religion, and hence the name, “Elohim” was more often used.
You’d be surprised to learn that there’s more than one book in the world – I suggest you read a couple.
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“1) the authors of the OT are liars because they are anonymous.” – no, the authors are unreliable because they are anonymous, just as they would be in a court of law.
“2) you assume overall that the Bible is not God inspired simple because you continuously say to yourself.. “God ‘wouldn’t’ do it that way”.” – More like, “No god I could have any respect for, would do it that way.”
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“You’ve given no valid evidence or argument that disproves the evidence that billions of people consider/ have considered when choosing to be Christians.”
We’ve given tons of evidence Kathy, you’d know that if you hadn’t refused to read it.
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Hey Arch ! Long time ….. I took a vacation from blogging for 3 weeks only to return to see things haven’t changed much here.
Arch, your biggest flaw in your blogging technique is that you keep confusing Kathy with the facts. 🙂 Maybe you should try citing fewer sources and using a little more B.S. You might get through to her then. 🙂
I have enjoyed the comments made by the girls here at you ! Priceless ! 🙂
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“That would be true ONLY if Islam had the same evidence to support it’s truth that Christianity does.” – I’ve yet to see that Christianity has ANY evidence to support it.
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Can’t deny the diarrhea analogy — nicely played. 🙂
I know I said this would be the last Kathy post, but the comments have actually been a bit more entertaining than usual for the last couple of days, so I figured we’d go for another round. Sorry in advance. 😉
Here’s the link: https://findingtruth.wordpress.com/2014/08/27/kathy-part-4/
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