Well, after breaking 2000 comments on the previous thread, I think it’s time to move to a new one. Feel free to continue the conversation here.
Also, I want to make a note about future posts. The tone on this blog for the last month or so has been decidedly different than what it used to be. While that’s definitely made things interesting, I’d like to move back to a tone more in line with the way things used to be. So going forward, I want the comments on all new posts to remain civil. We can all make our points, and I expect to see a wide range of opinions. But I don’t want to get into name-calling and bashing when we can’t all agree on particular issues. Let’s try to stay focused on the points and not get side-tracked with personal stuff. Let’s also keep each comment substantive so we don’t rack up so many comments in such a short period of time that it’s hard for everyone to keep track.
If you don’t feel like you can participate within those guidelines, then feel free to continue posting within this thread (and any future “Kathy” threads, if they’re needed), because I won’t be enforcing any guidelines here. But if you want to comment on any other posts, you’ll need to abide by the rules I just laid out. Otherwise, your comment will be subject to deletion, and after a warning, you might find yourself banned from at least that thread, if not the entire blog.
If there are any questions, let me know.
Thanks
Could I really have been
wro– not entirely correct all this time? Could it be that there really ARE miracles? I just awoke at the crack of 9, and there are NO COMMENTS from KATHY! Praise be to the all-powerful Flying Spaghetti Monster!1200 comments – this will make 1201 – on this thread alone, 2000+ on the one before it, and 1500+ on the first – who knew? I’m a bit surprised, I’ll admit, that SillinessOfMind and unkleE didn’t spend more time here, maybe they don’t like sharing the spotlight with other theists. The definition of an egotist, is someone who cares more about themselves than they do me.
Speaking of me, whatever shall I do with a Kathy-less day? I suppose I could work in my yard – it’s time to burn my lawn clippings in my burn pit anyway, it’s supposed to rain this weekend. When I burned them last Summer, I took every precaution – a shovel, a rake, a bucket of water, and I ran 300 feet of water hose, with spray-nozzle attached and turned on, out to an area near the pit. Once started, the fire crept over the stones that surround the pit, and into the grass. I quickly beat it out with the shovel, but it came back to life, and I rushed to grab my water hose to spray it, and the cheap, Made-in-China, Walmart piece of trash snapped off like a dry twig, and I was left holding a limp noodle in my hand – and I SWEAR, ladies, that’s never happened to me before —
I had to call the local volunteer Fire Department, and the leader, who was clearly unhappy that I had taken him away from his beer and ballgame, allowed hundreds of dollars worth of lumber I had stacked up, to burn to charcoal before he made any effort to put it out. Further, he called the County Fire Marshall, who came out and gave me a citation for Reckless Endangerment.
I had to appear in court, and chose to defend myself. Using her own lawbook definition of the law I had allegedly broken (for which, I thanked her profusely), I made the cute little Prosecutor look like a Girl Scout and walked out with a verdict of “Not Guilty.” I guess debating on these boards really DOES pay off.
I can also look up the links for camels in Israel’s pre-history that Laurie provided, but since I already have accumulated evidence that will likely contradict anything she has to offer, that debate will likely turn out to be a draw. It’s refreshing to debate someone like Laurie, whose intellect I can respect (if not agree with), as opposed to one who shall remain as nameless as she is clueless.
Stepping away from the laptop today is going to be a bit like walking out of a darkened theatre into bright sunlight – I’m sure I’ll blink for awhile, but eventually, I’ll get used to it.
(Boris Karloff accent): “It’s as lonely in here as the last living cell in a dead body –”
Should I turn out the lights?
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Go Arch. Go into the light. We’ll be here when you return. May you never ever be left standing with a limp hose again.
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I mean noodle.
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🙂 Zoe, you don’t post often enough for people to see how truly delightful you really are!
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I found this interesting, Laurie:
Especially when I compared it to a comment you made earlier, on another of Nate’s threads (and you said I didn’t remember! Silly Goose, I have a near-eidetic memory!):
“Most everyone who has a belief will only study what fits into that belief, and can not be trusted. It sound awful to say, but it is true.”
Present company included?
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I guess I can’t make a sweeping statement like that, and then say I’m exempt huh?
Many years ago, I would say this was true. I think I have overcome that at this point in my life, but would be lying if I said I researched your point of view as much my own. I do believe in a creator, and so I feel it is a better use of my time to research that. There is more I don’t understand about the scriptures, than that I do. I try to study anything worth studying with an open mind though.
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I study the chiastic structures and thematic connections because they are super awesome though! Its like studying the golden ratio, again super awesome! Yep, I’m a nerd. I loved the book the Davinci code!
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Nan, I would love to read your book and chat for a while!
Nate, there is no denomination that fits the bill. I attend a messianic synagogue, but would attend a Jewish shul if there was one.
I have to get to work, but I’ll check in tonight!
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Dammit Laurie, you’re being so amiable, I don’t even feel like saying, “GOTCHA!” You take all the fun out of it!
“I try to study anything worth studying with an open mind though.” – I can respect that, unlike those who scream, “LIBERAL!” and refuse to consider any other viewpoint.
I really AM going to check out those camels, but with rain coming, I’m under a deadline with this yard work.
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That would be 1:1.61803399… if memory serves.
I enjoyed the DaVinci Code too, despite my Christian daughter’s (where did I go WRONG?) admonition not to read it.
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“I attend a messianic synagogue, but would attend a Jewish shul if there was one.” – I attend a friendly poker game every couple of weeks —
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William,
“well, it’s easy to ignore what isnt there and what you havent provided.
and it’s just as easy to say that islam is right because it’s true and christianity is false. ”
Wrong William. I’ve pointed to plenty of evidence that you couldn’t/ can’t dispute. So.. it’s not the same.. at all. Islam is clearly a false religion.
“Regardless, it looks like you at least arent denying that killing babies and stealing virgins is bad anymore. baby steps.”
Everything God does is just.
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I can’t believe you just said that, Kathy – “Everything God does is just”. Indeed. You realize that Muslims say the same thing about Allah??
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I was wondering when Divine Command Theory would rear it’s head.
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Zoe said:
Though I did not consider converting, I did consider, if you know what I mean.
Yes, I do. I spoke to a few Rabbis about the matter. They’re advice was not to convert. There was no need to convert to Judaism to worship Yahweh and it was far easier to be a gentile than a Jew. Each one thought the idea was absurd.
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. . .and where is arch with his limp ho. . .(good one, Zoe!) . . . err. .. SHARP WIT . .. when we need him?
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well, you’re right, islam is clearly false, but then so is christanity.
You havent pointed to anything other than,
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
and it’s you who fails to address the points, not me.
If I’ve missed any other points, then please provide them and I will address them. Number them or label them somehow so I will be less likely to overlook them.
yes, everything a good and perfect and loving god would do would be just. and you’re telling me that you can think of “just” reasons for killing all the babies and stealing all the virgin girls of a nationality?
Maybe this is another indication that your man delivered book of claims is not from a perfectly just god.
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Heh! I’m sure he’s off dealing with the dry rot. Lack of use does that to hoses.
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I simply don’t understand why some people are unable to realize that the Bible saying something is not at all the same thing as GOD saying something.
In fact, that was one of the main points of this discussion. Mind boggling…
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Nate,
“Kathy, the trinity isn’t supported in the OT. “Elohim” is a vague term that could have meant a couple of different things, including the gods of the Levant.”
This is a good example of your inability to reason objectively Nate.. you state that the Trinity “isn’t supported”.. and then give your argument that the “Elohim” “COULD” have meant a couple of different things. There is blatant conflict in your statements Nate. You make a statement of fact based on a “could have” argument. This shows your bias. If you apply the other verses given as examples in the link, then the MOST LIKELY meaning of “Elohim” is pretty clear. Over and over you opt for the less likely explanation because you need to support your belief, instead of finding the truth.
” Jesus came performing signs (as talked about in Deut 13) and telling everyone that he was divine — a concept very different from what Moses talked about.”
How is it different than what Moses talked about?? And Jesus was NOT leading people to a different God (as described in Deut. 13). That’s the KEY difference that you choose to ignore.
“Nonetheless, your ability to sidestep Deuteronomy 13 and argue for Christianity’s legitimacy over Judaism is an excellent example of just what a Muslim would do to explain why Islam has replaced Christianity. And the same thing a Mormon would do as well.”
You are sidestepping the exact words of Deut 13, Nate. You’ve got to apply all of the context/ words.. not just what you want to apply.
And again, you couldn’t be more wrong.. Islam and Mormonism sorely lack the evidence to back up their claims.. AGAIN, you IGNORE many key factors including that both of those religions are based on ONE man’s word. Ignorance is extremely convenient, isn’t it?
You and William and Arch repeatedly ignore the evidence.. you have to.
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“I simply don’t understand why some people are unable to realize that the Bible saying something is not at all the same thing as GOD saying something.
In fact, that was one of the main points of this discussion. Mind boggling…”
Nate, the Bible HAS the credentials to back up it’s Truth. This is what you have CHOSEN to ignore. .To me, deliberate ignorance is mind boggling.
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Kathy, where is “elohim” explained in the OT as “the father, the son, and the holy spirit”? Simply show that, and I’ll concede the point.
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You’re absolutely wrong about the credentials, Kathy. Of course, if you ever gave any actual evidence, maybe you’d have a case.
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“You and William and Arch repeatedly ignore the evidence.. you have to.” – kathy
provide this evidence. I’ve listed what i’ve seen you show numerous times and each time I list it, i ask if i’m missing something – you never reply to that.
You’re the one ignoring things.
If you have more evidence than,
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
…then please provide it. If you lable it or number it, it will be easier for to catch and harder to jiss agian.
But i dont think you’ve listed anything else. I think you just like saying you have a strong case, like some sort of puffer fish, trying to look stringer than what you are.
The OT is clear that there is ONE god. Doesn’t mention a son, who is a separate, yet same entity. But again, you neglect the point, which is the people of other religions will have similar defenses against your criticisms of their religions.
The point is that you have no evidence for your position, but that you simply says stuff.
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Nate, cont..
“And this comment to Ruth is part of the problem:
I agree. That’s why I stated that we can’t know all of God’s reasons, sometimes we just have to trust Him.
You’re not trusting God, Kathy — you’re trusting the anonymous authors of the OT. That’s a very different thing.”
This isn’t a “problem” of mine Nate.. the problem is in your lack of objectivity. You fail over and over to look at the big picture. You make an assumption that 1) the authors of the OT are liars because they are anonymous. How do you justify this? and 2) you assume overall that the Bible is not God inspired simple because you continuously say to yourself.. “God ‘wouldn’t’ do it that way”. In order to make that assumption, several things are required.. complete knowledge of God and a true vision of the BIG PICTURE. I’ve noticed over and over in your words that you don’t look at the big picture.. only from your narrow perspective and understanding.. which you clearly believe is sufficient in making the judgments about God that you do.
” And when they say that God commanded the slaughter of children and the kidnapping of virgin girls, that should be a HUGE clue to you that these people weren’t really speaking for god.”
And here’s an example of what I just described. You are making judgments about God based on your narrow view and extremely limited knowledge.. and also your narrow perception of morality and righteousness. God knows all.. you don’t know those people who were destroyed.. you don’t know what they would have done had they lived. Do you even take these things into consideration?? You prove over and over that you don’t. You only chose to believe what supports your belief/ views.
“If there really is a God, I’m sure he’s weeping somewhere, saddened by your willingness to believe such horrible things about him.”
He’s weeping because you have chose to NOT trust Him.
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