So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.
There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.
I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?
Finding Truth 
I thought laurie is one of the ones who’s provided the most scripture – certainly more than you, kathy.
but are you saying that nothing is required of people? that all that is required to be saved is jesus dying? so thuink everyone is going to be saved and that there’s nothing anyone can do about it?
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really, why did jesus have to die anyways?
didnt god supposedly make everything, including all the rules?
so he made the rule that blood was required to install a testament (Hebrews 9), and he would have been the one that made the rule that everyone would go to hell unless he sacrificed his own son.
So, he only had to die, because god made it that way… why did he do that?
why not make different rules where no one “must” die or suffer?
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“Well, he’s always struck me as a bit horny…” – Hey, having a forked tongue comes in a lot handier than you’d ever imagine —
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i think there was a line somewhere back there… did you guys even see it when stepped over it?
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It’s about sin William. It has to be atoned for. What you aren’t understanding is the essence of Who God is. To understand, just start by looking at the universe and all of creation.. that should tell you that it’s far more complicated than you realize… that it might be beyond our full understanding.
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“C’mon – you’re saying horny like it’s a BAD thing. . . 🙂” – Give us this day our daily porn —
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“You aren’t making this better for yourself, arch. ;D” – Is it possible, Ruth, that we operate under different definitions of better?
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Hey arch, I was referring to the horns on top of the red fella’s head. …don’t know what you’re talking about. . .
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Kathy, this may help you get a better understanding of the 7 feasts that Laurie talks about, rather than making her provide scripture. http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/Introduction/introduction.html
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Pornography is extremely destructive Arch. All you have to do is watch the news to know that.
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Maybe…
Blue just didn’t sound better. Then again red doesn’t sound very good either. Perhaps you should see a doctor? I’m sure they make a pill for that.
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I’m curious, William – when “heaven and earth pass away,” what happens to hell?
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Thanks Nan, I’ll read it.
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“So, he only had to die, because god made it that way… why did he do that?
why not make different rules where no one “must” die or suffer?” – my guess would be that they guys who invented him really weren’t the brightest bulbs on the tree —
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“Pornography is extremely destructive, Arch”.
I’ll bet that’s where he got that forked tongue suggestion.. . . 🙂
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@Kathy,
You are very mistaken on this one. Laurie has made several comments filled with bible verses that at times I was thinking “gee, that was a bit much”. It’s been enough to make me remember it clearly. To her credit she also gives her own thinking and interpretations of them which is important too.
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Of course you were, Carmen, of course you were —
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“It’s about sin William. It has to be atoned for.” – kathy
well of course, but only because made it that way. It’s a painter saying he painted red because he had to. He “had to” becuase he did.
And if god had to, what eternal laws are god subject to and who made those? maybe you should spend your time worshiping the really powerful god – the one who isnt subject to laws.
“What you aren’t understanding is the essence of Who God is. To understand, just start by looking at the universe and all of creation.. that should tell you that it’s far more complicated than you realize… that it might be beyond our full understanding.” – kathy
do you understand the essence of god?
if yes, how? because you read what other guys said about god? the same guys who say that they speak for god?
it looks like you’re saying you understand the essence of god by looking at the universe…. can you explain further?
but I agree, I think people see things that they cant understand and cant explain, but since people like having answers, they create “god” to answer the unknown. is this what you’re getting at?
if you’re saying that the complexity of the universe means there was designer and a creator, ten you what i’ll say since we;ve been through this before. I’ll say that if complexity and order means there is a creator, then what created god since he is complex and has order? If you say he is an exception and doesnt need a creator, then i’ll just say. “why cant the universe be that exception?”
I only asked the initial question because of what you asked Laurie. You’re implying that if she cant explain her position to your liking, then it fails. I’m pointing out that there are things about your position that you cant adequately explain. does that make sense?
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What’s happening here, Howie, is that Kathy is having difficulty stepping outside the box. The religious training she’s had is pretty much all she knows and anything that doesn’t agree with that is beyond her understanding.
I think many of us would agree that Laurie’s outlook is much different than what we were taught. This is not to say it’s right or wrong. It’s just different from mainstream teachings. However, because most of us have seen the fallacies of the bible, we’re probably in a little better place to look at what she’s offering from a more neutral viewpoint.
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I’m sure you can imagine just how much I would LOVE to respond to that comment, Kathy, but when you first followed us over to this thread, the mandate went out – to paraphrase Thumper’s mother: “If you can’t say anything good about Kathy, don’t say nuthin’ at all!” And since it should be obvious by now that since the first half of “Kathy I,” I’ve been unable to find anything good about you, given the current guidelines – where you’re concerned at least – that has a tendency, believe it or not, to leave me speechless.
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“I’m sure they make a pill for that.” – Yes, but it’s also blue, and so far, I haven’t needed it.
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“that has a tendency, believe it or not, to leave me speechless.”
behold a sign! a miracle! who can deny such compelling evidence?
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I KNEW this was coming, even before I’d typed my last keystroke. I said where SHE was concerned, William – where SHE was concerned! Sheeesh!
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brandon and laurie (even kathy, why not?) each have their good points, and as interesting as that is, none have a position without its problems too.
To me, the only way to truly address all the problems is to acknowledge they’re there, and understand none of this is from god.
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Howie, in most instances, she hasn’t given *me* the specific verses to back up her claims in our debate. She has often given chapters or “the beginning of the Bible” etc.. but I rarely get the specific verses.
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