So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.
There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.
I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?
Finding Truth 
“Where has she answered my question William? Post the answer.” – Kathy
William had Kathy been actually paying attention, she would know this.
here, she is using her usual tactic, trying to make you repeat something that has already been said.
please don’t, if you really have in your heart that Kathy will grow from her experience here, and you actually really care, make her do her own homework, the answer is there, I can go back and read it, so can anyone else, time for Kathy to be an adult and do the work for herself.
Kathy has found it too easy to rely on dropping out and expecting others to do the hard work . she’s been doing it all her life. time for her to stop being physically and mentally lazy.
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here, let me provide more evidence of Kathy’s silly childish game she is playing on you all:
http://tothewire.wordpress.com/2009/02/12/the-case-of-the-missing-link-where-are-darwins-predicted-fossils/#comment-5038
sound familiar?
William, as I’ve said before, smarter people than you have “debated” Kathy aka kay.
and they always come to the same conclusion.
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Well, Laurie, not to toot my own shofar, but my mind simply cannot envision an entity, with an intellect capable of creating a universe with all of it’s intricate laws, giving a rat’s patoot as to how many blasts a person makes on a Ram’s horn. The fun part though, I can understand, especially watching the guy pass out on that last note – as long as there’s cake – gotta be cake, or at least nachos.
As a student of human nature, it’s always interesting to learn what various people choose to give up sanity for.
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Kathy,
I have said before that i will not go back, copy and paste things for you. Laurie has posted her verses numerous times. nate could be right, maybe you’re looking for something she hasnt posted, but she’d still posted more scripture than you have. If you dont realize that, i respectfully suggest that you devote a little more time to reading than you do responding.
you said,
“You need water.. one day you die because you didn’t get enough water.. and it’s all your fault because you “made it that way”.. you made yourself need water.” – Kathy
Not really, I didn’t make myself need water, I just need water to survive. I am not all powerful, so I am subject to certain laws and me needing water has nothing to do with my own interests or designs – I simply need water or i’ll i die. You believe god made us that way. God supposedly made all the rules, so any “necessary” eventuality is only necessary because he made it that way.
I’m not making assumptions about the god of the bible. The bible says he had to sacrifice his son and it says that put everything in order and that everything is subject to him. I’m challenging those claims of men.
“Again, you are making baseless assumptions.” – Kathy
How so?
“By looking at existence, including the universe, I have a pretty good idea that God is beyond full human understanding. The universe is illogical, it’s truly beyond our understanding.. so it just follows that the Creator of that universe is going to be a very complex Being. I don’t understand how you can justify making these very simple and narrow assumptions about Him. How can you possibly know these things??” – Kathy
I’m not sure that the universe is illogical. Why do you say that it is?
And how could you possibly know that the claims of the bible are true?
Again, If a great and complex universe means that it must have a creator and that creator must be complex, then what created god? And if god does, despite his complexity and order, does not need a creator, then complex things don’t have to have a creator – so then why couldn’t the universe simply be that thing or one thing that didn’t need a creator? And if I’m making narrow and simple assumptions about god, they’re the same simple assumptions you’re making about the universe and existence.
You’re saying the presence of the universe means that there is an eternal god that we cant understand. Well how do you know? Couldn’t I just as easily claim that the universe (which can be observed) is eternal and beyond your understanding? So far, that hasn’t settled it for you, so then why do you think claiming the same thing about a god (who is not observed) will answer it all for me?
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“William, as I’ve said before, smarter people than you have “debated” Kathy aka kay.
and they always come to the same conclusion.”
this joke never gets old… smarter than me… you are funny…
…and likely correct…
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“By looking at existence, including the universe, I have a pretty good idea that God is beyond full human understanding. The universe is illogical, it’s truly beyond our understanding..”
Setting aside the fact that there is a vast ocean of information that is beyond YOUR understanding, simply look at the amount of understanding we’ve acquired since the Bronze Age, when your god was invented. Those who invented him believed the earth to be a flat disk, encased in a dome, surrounded by a limitless sea of water. Our understanding of the universe is huge by comparison, and growing exponentially.
I can’t possibly envision any society today, based on our current volume of knowledge, that would invent a god.
However, I DO recall reading a story, years ago, in one of my early psychology books, about three American “spotters” during the latter days of WW II, written by one of the actual spotters. A spotter, in those days, was part of a small team, who flew in a light aircraft over various Pacific islands, looking for signs of Japanese occupation, then reporting their findings to their mother aircraft carrier. On this occasion, the spotters were having trouble with their carburetor, and finding an island with a large, level plateau, set down to repair the problem. That accomplished, they had a quick lunch of K-Rations, discarded the empty cans on the ground, hopped in and took off.
Years later, one of the men, having retired, bought a boat and decided to sail around the world. On one occasion, he happened to be near the coordinates of the island where they had made their pitstop, and decided to check it out for old time’s sake, maybe snap a few photos. Upon scaling the plateau, he was amazed to find a crude replica of the spotter’s light aircraft, fashioned from sticks and woven reeds (a photo accompanied the article) – apparently they had been watched from hiding by unseen members of a native tribe who had observed their activities. He found the spotter’s rusted K-ration cans inside the “plane” – lovingly-placed artifacts, attesting to the day when the gods visited a tiny Pacific island.
Given sufficient ignorance of the world around them, I suppose a population could, theoretically, still invent another god. But such a god wouldn’t have the advantage of 3,000 years of polishing, that your god has been privileged to enjoy, nor the backing of the Roman Empire to promote it’s legend.
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William,
I know we stand on different sides of discussion at times, but I really like the way you share and process things. And your humility.
Even if we don’t always agree, my hat goes off to you.
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Ryan, same can be said about you as well. 🙂
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thanks, ryan. that means a great deal coming from you.
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William, you are using logic so far beyond her grasp that she couldn’t reach it with a step-ladder, but I know, you have to try —
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Laurie, did a little reading on the Karite Jews via Wikipedia. One thing I like is that they don’t put a lot of weight in the Midrash or Talmud. To me, the former (in particular) was nothing more than human interpretation of the Hebrew Bible … and look where this has gotten us with the New Testament!
Of course, there is much that I don’t understand since I’m not familiar with the Jewish religion, per se. Plus the terminology is definitely foreign!
The only thing I have to say about your religion, or any religion for that matter, is the “requirement” to follow certain rules, protocols, precepts, etc. in order to be a “good” believer. Kathy would probably counter this by saying there are no rules/laws to follow as a Christian, but I disagree. The very fact that you have to “confess your sins” and then live a “holy life” (whatever that might be) or be in danger of hell fire are definitely requirements placed on those who “accept Christ.”
Of course, when you’re a believer, you don’t see these things because you have been taught that it’s all about the love of God demonstrated through the sacrifice of Jesus (Kathy’s words).
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“this joke never gets old… smarter than me… you are funny…” – William, when will you you finish with putting yourself down? I have heard you make some VERY insightful comments!
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Hi Brandon,
I want you to know that I am not dismissive to your ideas and I have and will spend time thinking about them. We all have biases that tether us to our beliefs and it is notable that you’ve been able to flip your worldview twice. From what you’ve said it seems that you rejoined Christianity because you felt compelled to do so internally. It also sounds like you think that God has inspired all religions to some degree with some deep truths. And perhaps he has “programmed” us to become drawn to these deep truths. Am I getting close to describing your current worldview? It is an interesting theory and you have your personal experience of feeling compelled to back it up. Do you think that everyone on the planet, if searching, will be drawn to the Bible?
On the burden of proof, I understand why you’re being hesitant. Since this is a casual dialog I would like to at least agree on the following: If one of us makes a claim that is extraordinary then we should be the one who has to support our claim with proof. Like if I said that a UFO landed in my backyard last night, I should be the one providing proof. If I claimed that the story of Peter Pan was inspired by actual fairies, I should be the one providing proof. You are claiming that the stories in the Bible were inspired by a deity. It’s an extraordinary claim. People writing books is not.
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thanks arch, i dont have a self esteem problem – really. It’s mostly weird humor on my part I suppose and other times it’s just me wanting to avoid the “I am too smart,” “no you’re not,” quibbling that really has nothing to do with anything.
I’m sure we’ve all seen idiots make a good point at least once, and brilliant people can be wrong too, so in that sense, if i’m an idiot or intellectual savior to the world, it really doesn’t matter, as the points remain the same.
and my joke comment that you quoted was really a joke attempt by me , to imply that paui williams must be joking to suggest someone was smarter than me. and you know, it is funny when you really consider the absurdity of such a notion. Now certainly there are those who proof read more than i do – any criticism of that directed toward me would be no joke.
but really, I’d like all the religious people to think about all the religions in world and then consider what if they were all made up. I’d also like them all to think back to before they were born. Remember that time? That’s what i suspect death will be like.
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William, totally agree with the last part of your comment. Before birth? Nothing. After death? Nothing.
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William,
“Laurie has posted her verses numerous times. nate could be right, maybe you’re looking for something she hasnt posted, but she’d still posted more scripture than you have. If you dont realize that, i respectfully suggest that you devote a little more time to reading than you do responding.”
This is why I tend to not address your long comments William.. because when I do, you are the one who either doesn’t read them or just doesn’t get it. I pointed out to you that I don’t deny that Laurie has posted “more” scripture than me. And I also pointed out that this.. does.. not.. matter.
It’s NOT the point. Either you didn’t read this part or you don’t understand it.. if you don’t understand, fine, I’ll elaborate further.. it’s not the volume, it’s the pertinence.. in MY debates with Laurie, she has not given SPECIFIC verses to back up her claims. What she posts all together, to others, means nothing to my point.
And I’ll just point out again that you don’t know how God came to be.. yes, He made you so that you require water.. but how do you know how God was “made”? Or not made? You don’t know.. if you disagree, post the verses that pertain to Who God is… post the verses that back up your claim that God “decided” “to paint the house red”.
“I have said before that i will not go back, copy and paste things for you. Laurie has posted her verses numerous times.”
She didn’t post the verses that answer my question of why Jesus had to suffer and die to fulfill the “7 feasts”. She claims it’s for symbolism. That isn’t a reasonable answer. Who would force their Son to suffer and die for symbolism? Surely there could have been an easier way to symbolize the 7 feasts.
“I’m not sure that the universe is illogical. Why do you say that it is?”
Already addressed this.. just explain how first cause can happen and then I can drop my valid point.
“And how could you possibly know that the claims of the bible are true?”
I know based on the evidence.. another point I’ve addressed several times.
“Again, If a great and complex universe means that it must have a creator and that creator must be complex, then what created god? And if god does, despite his complexity and order, does not need a creator, then complex things don’t have to have a creator – so then why couldn’t the universe simply be that thing or one thing that didn’t need a creator? And if I’m making narrow and simple assumptions about god, they’re the same simple assumptions you’re making about the universe and existence. ”
Again, this is why I tend to bypass your comments.. I’ve already addressed this, in this thread. That you tell *me* to read more and comment less is perplexing.
I’ve already tried to explain this William.. YES, you make a valid point.. UNTIL you look at the actual evidence.. and apply reason and logic.. of the two choices, a Creator makes more sense. If you disagree, just give the evidence that outweighs the argument for a Creator..
“Couldn’t I just as easily claim that the universe (which can be observed) is eternal and beyond your understanding? So far, that hasn’t settled it for you, so then why do you think claiming the same thing about a god (who is not observed) will answer it all for me?”
It’s the scientific consensus that the universe is expanding.. that means it had a starting point.
But, again, I do see your point.. either an eternal universe or an eternal Creator. (hence my 50/50 claim). And we have no empirical proof of either. The reason, again, that this doesn’t “settle” it for me is because of the evidence combined with reason and logic. It’s much more likely that we are Created as opposed to all of existence being by chance. The odds of chance are greater than the time the universe has existed David Limbaugh states. I don’t know his evidence for this but for those who like to make fun of the idea of an unseen Creator… don’t realize how comical their alternative is. Especially the part where we evolved from pond scum.
It’s about the evidence William, the evidence and reason and logic favor a Creator over chance.. and if you ask again for the evidence of the Truth of the Bible, I’m not going to answer.. I’ve already answered this several times.
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Nan got there before I did – I was going to say the same thing. In fact, I’ve asked that question to many people. I actually said that to a previous minister of ours – a young, devout, idealistic fellow who didn’t quite know what to do with me. We were travelling together somewhere (church meeting, no doubt) and discussing death. I said to him, “You know what I think? When you’re dead, you’re dead, Tony!” The look on his face was part horror/part incredulity.
I should have known better. The next Sunday, we got treated to a passionate sermon on life after death. Me and my big mouth.
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“Given sufficient ignorance of the world around them, I suppose a population could, theoretically, still invent another god. But such a god wouldn’t have the advantage of 3,000 years of polishing, that your god has been privileged to enjoy, nor the backing of the Roman Empire to promote it’s legend.”
What a cute story Arch.. if only you were able to discern the differences.
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Kathy, It’s much more likely that we are Created as opposed to all of existence being by chance. And the evidence and reason and logic favor a Creator over chance.
No, it is not more likely. The odds are, as you have yourself stated, 50/50. You prefer to believe it’s more likely, but that does not make it so from an evidence, reason, and logical point of view.
I think if you, for once, simply admitted (in writing) that this is your POV instead of making unsubstantiated claims, your credibility would go up at least a couple of notches.
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Carmen … HA! I’m sure you almost caused that poor guy to lose his last meal. Shame on you … but you got your just rewards that next Sunday. teehee
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” should have known better. The next Sunday, we got treated to a passionate sermon on life after death. Me and my big mouth.”
Carmen, this made me laugh out loud loudly. Death anxiety is a ditch. 😉
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“Death anxiety’s a ditch” – yup, and I’m a REAL one! 🙂
Sometimes it’s all a girl’s gotta hang onto!!
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hey kathy,
“She didn’t post the verses that answer my question of why Jesus had to suffer and die to fulfill the “7 feasts”. She claims it’s for symbolism. That isn’t a reasonable answer. Who would force their Son to suffer and die for symbolism? Surely there could have been an easier way to symbolize the 7 feasts.” – Kathy
I wasn’t very clear, that’s my fault. Laurie did post verses, but you don’t think her explanation went far enough, so you want more verses to elaborate on that – okay. My point is that you haven’t given reasonable answers for your position. And who would force their son to suffer when they didn’t have to? Oh he had to? Oh, because he made the rules that mandated that he had to? and that makes sense to you? that’s reasonable to you?
I’ve already gone over the “first cause.” If you’re saying that god doesn’t need a first cause, then I’ll just say that the universe doesn’t need a first cause. If you that makes the universe illogical, then I’ll say that makes god illogical. If you that if the universe is illogical, then something made it – I’ll same the same about god and nothing is resolved. The point is, is that you are wanting there to be two standards. One for god and the bible, and then a much more critical standard for everything else. why two standards?
“Again, this is why I tend to bypass your comments.. I’ve already addressed this, in this thread. That you tell *me* to read more and comment less is perplexing.” – Kathy
Except you haven’t adequately addressed it. You just say stuff like, “your making assumptions about god,” or “the universe’s existence and complexity means it was created…” You keep spinning the wheel, I’m just willing to go in circles with you, where you’re hoping I just get of the merry go round so that you can pretend you’re winning something. Let’s ride I say – it’s just going to keep ending up where you don’t want to be.
“It’s the scientific consensus that the universe is expanding.. that means it had a starting point.” – Kathy
Oh, I see, the singularity. A single point of infinite mass and energy, or something like that? okay, then, that is your eternal thing that needs no creator. Or something did it or something else was there, but saying that a magical being, who created all physical laws and who knows everything, who made spiritual laws that required the death of his son, did all of that is no more a real and answer that saying the universe is really just the fecal droppings of giant creatures or that we only exist within a dream.
Where is your god? You can only point to a book written, copied and edited by men. If you point to existence as your proof, then we reenter the circle. Now, I get understand supposing that something created us, but when you select a single religion as the only true ONE, then you’ll have a bit more explaining to do to show that you’re not merely arbitrarily picking one.
“But, again, I do see your point.. either an eternal universe or an eternal Creator. (hence my 50/50 claim). And we have no empirical proof of either” – Kathy
Maybe 50/50 as in two choices, but I don’t think there are only the two possibilities. What’s more is that on the god side, there are thousands of variants from which type of Christian, to how many gods, to which one(s)… and then we can see the universe and are learning more about it all the time. Again, where is god? Point to him? If god is hidden and cannot be detected by science, then in many ways he is the same as imaginary creatures, so a much, much lower probability exists for him than it does for the universe.
“It’s about the evidence William, the evidence and reason and logic favor a Creator over chance.. and if you ask again for the evidence of the Truth of the Bible, I’m not going to answer.. I’ve already answered this several times.” – Kathy
Ah yes, these:
1) martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) our very existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
These aren’t good answers for what should be obvious reasons. I have asked if you have anything else besides these. By now, I realize that you do not.
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While I definitely don’t agree with everything in this article, it does offer some ideas on why Laurie feels Paul is a false apostle: http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm
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I know I keep going back to “why the bible?” But Kathy, laurie and brandon seem like they’re arguing over lines drawn in water – nothing is clear.
neither side has a position that is free of issues and is clearly and unmistakably defined.
If kathy and brandon are right, and paul is a good apostle, then how do you reconcile what jesus said in matt 5 and how do you get around all the passages that disagree with paul on meats scarified to idols? anything you come up with will be a guess as it is not in the bible. Similar issues would arise for laurie if we agreed she were right about paul.
The bible just has problems. So why it over anything else? why must there even be a god and a divine message to follow?
How does “god did it” make more sense? this is why we keep going in circles. We;ll go through the whole thing and you’ll end it with phrases like this, “god makes more sense.” If you say it;s absurd for the universe to be eternal or to create itself, then why isnt that absurd for god?
god isn’t an answer, it’s a dismissal. It allows you to ignore the question of origins and move on to easier and smaller things. this isn’t that much of a criticism as i do something similar when i say, “I don’t really know how the universe started.” God is only an attempt at answering, but to pull it off you have to quit asking questions.
1. God is all powerful and all knowing
2. God made everything
3. god had to sacrifice his son
4. god is love and mercy and just
5. god needed the israelites to kill entire peoples, including the women and baby boys, only sparing the virgin girls to keep for themselves
6. grace saves you and you cant earn it
7. if you’re bad, god will not save you and burn you in hell forever
8. god isnt a respecter of persons, he just extends his grace to some and not others, or some will be saved by being good (but they dont have to do anything) and will be condemned by not doing good (but they didnt have to do anything).
9. God loved us so much and he wanted to give us a plan that he didnt feel like writing himself or bother signing.
10. God loves us all so much that he demands constant devotion from us, but wont bother talking to us or showing up for us or saving dying children from horrible diseases.
11. god looks a lot like my imaginary friends and is just as noisy.
so clear. you know, once I write it out it does start to make a lot of sense.
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