So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.
There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.
I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?
Finding Truth 
@Brandon,
This is not a simple topic Brandon, so I’ll share in expressing my own poor communication.
First, there isn’t a whole lot I disagree with you in what you are saying, but there are some points that we may diverge on that I’d like to talk more about.
Also, if I was psychologizing I apologize because fact is I have no degree in psychology and have never even taken a course in psychology, so whatever I say is never meant as a decree, it’s only the reasoning and barfing of my brain based on experiences I’ve had getting to know others with mental illness as well as reading about the subject as a layperson.
Let me start over a little. Remember the afterlife debate I did a post about a while back? I wrote this to you in a comment over there: “I think it’s also important to note that science cannot actually adjudicate the question of whether or not there is a “Sun God”. What science has shown through many investigations and observations, however, is that there seems to be natural rules to describe the effects we see from the sun. But there still remains the conceivable possibility that a spirit is guiding it and science cannot help us answer that question. This is similar to Carroll’s response to this point. So with many investigations and observations of the brain and it’s effects it is possible we can come to a similar feeling of justification that the “mind is what the brain does”. Neither problem can be resolved with 100% certainty.”
I believe this relates to what you are asking here, but I’d like your opinion on that. I think the more that science can find that there are natural reasons for these belief tendencies many (not all) have, and the more that science tries to empirically investigate whether or not there is mind body dualism or trying to study whether we can scientifically measure effects from any gods, and the more the results of the studies are lacking then the closer we can come to feeling more confident that those ideas we have are not based on reality. I’m making no statement of a confidence level here because I still need to and am still learning more, but I do think there is enough from what I have read to rationally conclude that we are justified in doubting it’s reality.
By the way, not sure you’ve figured it out yet but Ruth’s link to Shermer’s article is absolutely nothing like you expected. You should give it a read. It’s awesome, and I actually agree with his last paragraph even though commenters on there (especially the first) put him down for it.
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Kathy,
What do you hope to achieve with your statement that there is no empirical evidence for evolution? Statements like that are why I made it a point to learn more about evolution. I wanted to understand it for myself, and to be able to respond coherently. Alas, I have found that my understanding only helps me to be solidly unswayed when presented with comments such as the one you made. Once again, there is no debate here. It is purposeless to even discuss it.
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@Nate,
Yes Nate, I’m also not an expert on this topic, but I reason exactly along these same lines as you do. If you ask Victoria she’ll give you a long spiel (I write a lot too, so you can poke fun right back at me Victoria. ;p ) about Ellen White’s visions, which could have been caused by her brain injury, ending up being a major force in the founding of 7th Day Adventism. That’s just one example that sprung to mind when you wrote this.
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@Howie,
I thought the article was fantastic! And it does show that skeptics have experiences sometimes that make them scratch their heads and wonder. I hope nothing I said sounded critical of Shermer. I think sometimes we all want to just hold onto a cherished memory for something significant that it meant to us. I have many cherished memories.
When my mother was ill she didn’t seem so on the outside. Her doctor put her on the heart transplant list and told her to do whatever she felt like doing as long as she felt like doing it. She could live 20 more years or she could drop dead at any moment without warning. Those were her words – not mine. We’d been at odds for something I deeply regret but we were reconciling. I was hanging wallpaper at a client’s house and ran into some trouble. She was an expert so I called her. She came and helped me finish the job that day. We had a great day and spent some really quality time together. The next morning she was gone.
As a Christian I always believed that day was providence. It’s a cherished memory and I don’t want to know if it wasn’t. It doesn’t matter.
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@Ruth,
Oh no, I didn’t think anything you said came across critical of Shermer. I agree – his story as well as yours are heartwarming. I was actually referring to the comments on the linked page you gave – did you notice the first one by “dogfeathers”?
Regarding dogfeathers’ as well as other commenters on there, this is actually where I diverge a little with what I may wrongly label “mainstream atheism”.
I don’t think Shermer was suggesting that there was something impossible about the radio turning on days after he tried to fix it. That’s nothing unusual at all, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he’d agree with that. That’s why I thought a lot of the comments about bringing the radio to an electronics technician missed the point he was making. He made it very clear it was about the timing, given this quote:
His wife was feeling lonely, wishing her grandfather could give her away, and asked to talk privately with Michael in the back of the house and at that very moment they hear a love song from her grandfather’s radio.
It’s a spine tingling coincidence that makes skeptics like Michael and myself wonder. I wonder quite a bit – and this relates exactly to the last post I wrote on my blog.
Don’t take me wrong, I’m quite aware, just as Michael is that the law of large numbers could explain a coincidence like that, and one could also suggest that perhaps they didn’t hear the music before the moment that it meant the most to them – who knows.
So I do disagree with dogfeathers, and I like Michael’s last paragraph enough to quote it:
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Ruth & Howie
I wasn’t trying to put down Shermer either. Because of my electronics background, I knew there was a better than 90% chance the cause for the radio to suddenly come on could be explained scientifically.
I enjoyed the story and probably wouldn’t want an explanation either. It was heartwarming and they should be allowed to believe whatever they want.
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Kc,
I didn’t take it as critical at all. But like Howie pointed out I don’t think it was so much the issue of the radio coming on as the timing of it. That’s the part that left them speechless. I can understand that.
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Howie,
You know, usually I get more caught up in reading the ridiculous comments for the pure entertainment value than the actual articles 🙂 , but for some reason I didn’t even read any of them.
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Howie,
I don’t think you were psychologizing, and I don’t think anyone here was psychologizing in a negative or unfair way. The biggest problem was that I was getting frustrated that I couldn’t get anyone to engage the ideas I was trying to express! So, I apologize for letting that happen.
These thoughts do relate. They are good reasons to reject religious belief, but they don’t really have to do with the mechanism for producing belief. And, that’s exactly the main idea I was trying to express near the end! That the mechanism for producing religious belief, even if it’s non-rational, does not automatically make the religious belief false.
Honestly, this idea may not be agreeable to everyone. I think Victoria would disagree based on what she’s written. But, since she did not acknowledge the idea, I can’t be for sure.
Wow your right! And, it was very well written and I agree the article comments seem offended! I’ve always like Shermer.
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I will admit that I initially had a negative reaction with Shermer’s article. Not because I didn’t agree with what he was saying about taking seriously the scientific credo to keep an open mind and remain agnostic when the evidence is indecisive or the riddle unsolved. My reaction was concern that it might add fuel to superstitious people, mostly religious fundamentalists who tend to interfere with the well being of people’s lives..
For one, the belief in demons and demon possessions, thus having a direct and indirect effect on people who have neurological disorders and may even be psychologically and physically harmed and lose their life because of poor religious counsel, if you get my drift.
I think Howie knows I’m rather open-minded to exploring the unexplained. We are Possibilians. 😉
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Victoria,
Today I got into the debate mentality and I think I was being too pushy and sharp. I want to offer you an apology. I’m sorry I wasn’t careful enough. I think there’s a constructive way to discuss these ideas and handle perceived miscommunication. I was not representing this constructive way.
-Brandon
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Brandon, so by your logic, not golfing is a hobby?
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Brandon, no apologies necessary. I am ever learning, myself, to effectively communicate in online discourse, especially when it’s pertaining to sensitive subject matters.
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@Victoria,
I definitely know that quite well. 🙂 It’s pretty cool actually.
You express an extremely important point here. I always have a very difficult time balancing things that can conflict. This may be an example of that. I’ve got the side of me that is pushing very hard to be completely honest about the kind of open mindedness I have that Shermer expresses. Then there is the danger that you express as well on the other side. The only way I’ve worked through this is to still be completely honest about my open mindedness but also express the concern that the evidence suggests that people shouldn’t take too lightly religious experiences they may have, because they could indicate a disorder that should be checked out by professionals. I’m no professional so I can’t diagnose, but if I heard someone with a hacking cough I would suggest that they may want to get that checked out even though it could be that I’ve misread the cough because of my lack of expertise – I see that as analogous to hearing someone tell me about supernatural visions (or voices, etc.) they may have had. That’s my own personal way of balancing this out, and I’m sure it’s not perfect.
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@Brandon,
I agree completely that if the mechanisms are non-rational it doesn’t automatically make the religious belief false, but I think it puts it on less sure footing than things like our empirical senses. So treating it with a bit of skepticism would be warranted in my mind.
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RE: http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2014/09/25/pkg-police-officer-claims-ghost-caught-on-camera.koat.html
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“There is no empirical evidence that we evolved from another species.” – That simply isn’t true, Kathy – maybe you should take your nose out of the Bible long enough to read some non-theistic books on evolution.
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“Yes, he is batshit crazy.” – Ruth, you KNOW I get confused when you use those technical terms!
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Ruth, you KNOW I get confused when you use those technical terms!
Arch, he doesn’t have papers but I’m just sure he’s certifiable.
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My reaction was concern that it might add fuel to superstitious people, mostly religious fundamentalists who tend to interfere with the well being of people’s lives..
N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ,
I understand your concern, but those people look for any little thing to confirm their bias and it doesn’t take much. Whether or not skeptics have moments where they wonder there will always be enough ghosts/demons caught on video to fuel that fire. 😉
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“People aren’t atheism by default, they are just nothing by default.”
Although I disagree with 99.99% of your word-salad comments, Brandon, I must say that at least you generally appear to give your subject matter some thought. This one, you just phoned in. In the sense of a belief system, atheism IS your “nothing“-default.
I must congratulate you on having dropped your original smarmy debating style since your last visit here, traffic must be a bit slow over on your own blog.
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I read your gun story, Ruth – remind me not to come to YOUR house without an invitation!
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I read your gun story, Ruth – remind me not to come to YOUR house without an invitation!
You don’t need an invitation. Just don’t come in the middle of the night and sneak in! Please do knock first.
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