So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.
There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.
I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?
Finding Truth 
Ruth, okay.
and I’m not trying to be difficult. I get that some kids may actually fear their parents.
i did not fear mine and pretty sure mine dont fear me.
BuT i dont fear my doctor or a nurse either when i get shots or have had surgery. I may have “feared” the event or procedure, but not the administering individual.
Similarly, i never feared my parents. I didnt want spankings, but i was never surprised when i received one either. and when being beaten with a belt, I knew it would end, i knew my parents loved me, and I, at the time, thought it was what had to be done for my infraction. Did my own mindset change the affects spankings had on me?
does giving shots to toddlers, who dont understand why they’re getting inoculated, suffer the same adverse affects as those who are spanked? Same question for the kids who get shots or something similar even when they know why they;’re getting them?
and would this mean that if a kid knew why he was getting a spanking and if he/she didn’t fear their parents, do spankings cease to be detrimental?
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William, thanks for your reply and taking the time to look over the articles. I wanted to leave another article about spanking, as we have significant evidence that it decreases gray matter in the prefrontal cortex. The researchers found harsh corporal punishment, meaning at least one spanking a month for more than three years was linked to depression, addiction and other mental health disorders.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/23/health/effects-spanking-brain/
I’m glad you brought up ISIS. I think that is a good example. Taking over territory that is not theirs. They come from a warrior culture and a culture which more males than females, that devalues women and promotes multiple wives. Men can have up to 4 wives. That creates a shortage of females. Disaster waiting to happen. So when there are not enough females, there is an increase in violence. But what does Islam promote? How do they keep them loyal? They tell these guys that if they submit to Allah, that there are 70+ virgins awaiting for them in paradise. A brilliant strategy.
Yes, I think that war should be a last resort, absolutely I watched a neuroscience lecture not long ago. What they have found is that areas that are constantly warring produce a lot of “tough guys”. That can be inner-city gangs, civil wars, etc. When this behavior goes on generation after generation, women (and girls) end up marrying the tough guys who have warrior genes that get turned on. This, in turn, develops a warrior culture.
Even when the culture is not lacking in resources, no matter the change, this warrior culture can go on for hundreds of years because it’s not in the genes (induced by environment). The lecture is on Youtube, by neuroscientists James Fallon speaking at the Oslo Freedom Forum 2011, if you’re interested. It’s quote fascinating and discussion antisocial behavior, the brains of dictators, as well as some of the major causes of immorality.
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If there’s a way to give medicine to a child that doesn’t involve a shot, do we still opt for the shot?
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it is so fascinating. thanks neuro.
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ooh, touche’ nate.
you got me there. check mate, i guess.
you know, it really is that old hot or mild, alcohol or hydrogen peroxide thing… or not.
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i’ll have to read through the research before i can comment further.
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@ William,
Like I said earlier, I received what my parents called “whippings” – with belts and switches. Yes, I was afraid that if I didn’t do what my parents said, when they said, I could get a spanking even though that wasn’t their go-to form of discipline. I did know that they loved me, but I was also afraid of their discipline. I’m not even going to say I think that was a bad thing.
There are a lot of children who are afraid to go to the doctor because of shots they received.
I do think this largely depends on the child. But how would you know until it’s too late which child might be affected this way? I do think that spanking as a form of discipline, administered in the right way, can be and is effective. But do the benefits outweigh the risks? And who benefits?
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Geez, William, just stop beating your kids, okay! 😉
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“Neuronotes, any thoughts on why some soldiers don’t get PTSD and others do? or why some people don’t feel like spankings were detrimental and others do?”
http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/why-some-soldiers-develop-ptsd-while-others-dont.html
“Among these factors, childhood experiences of physical abuse or a pre-Vietnam [or pre-war] psychiatric disorder other than PTSD were strong contributors to PTSD onset. Age also seemed to play an important role: Men who were younger than 25 when they entered the war were seven times more likely to develop PTSD compared to older men. The researchers also found that soldiers who inflicted harm on civilians or prisoners of war were much more likely to develop PTSD.
The combined data from all three primary factors — combat exposure, prewar vulnerability, and involvement in harming civilians or prisoners — revealed that PTSD syndrome onset reached an estimated 97% for veterans high on all three.”
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As far as children not feeling like spankings were detrimental and others do. They might not consciously feel that way. However, when you read the ACE study from the CDC, you will see that the negative effects might surface in other ways, including disease and early death.
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This really is a pretty controversial topic. I’ve said many times that I got whippings when I was a kid and I turned out alright, so it must not be too bad. 😉
I think the problem comes in that while my parents and William may have a good approach to what a spanking should be, many people don’t. They don’t know where to draw the line. And then comes the question of who gets to decide where that line is.
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Ruth, I think in practice, we agree.
I rarely spank and when i do, it’s not impressive, but just at the level where they can feel it. I dont yell or carry one when i’ve done it. I have used it as a last resort.
But again, i dont view pain and discomfort and inherently bad. This research interests me a great deal though. If it is conclusive, then I want to know that. It would change my entire perception of toughness and ruggedness – things i value, but not to an absurd or obnoxious degree.
I am one of those though that tends to think people arent as tough as they used to be. Do spanking make people tougher – I have no idea. If spankings are bad, then i guess it doesnt matter.
there’s a fine line between being a hard ass and a dumb ass.
just dont tell my folks i said that, or they’d beat me silly.
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Correction on my comment to William: “even when the culture is not lacking in resources, no matter the change, this warrior culture can go on for hundreds of years because it’s now in the genes (induced by environment).
I initially wrote “not”.
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I am one of those though that tends to think people arent as tough as they used to be. Do spanking make people tougher – I have no idea. If spankings are bad, then i guess it doesnt matter.
I’m pretty tough. Maybe tougher than is healthy. I don’t know if that correlates to my childhood spankings or not(probably not). I have no idea why I’m that way. Maybe I have a high threshhold for pain? Regardless, pain isn’t usually a good indicator to me that something is wrong.
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William – “There’s fine line between being a hard ass and a dumb ass”.
I wouldn’t describe you as being either of those!
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incredibly fascinating, Neuro. really.
Nate, i would stop beating them, except it makes me feel like a big man.
that was joke, just in case it wasnt clear.
I dont like being told what to do. If the research is as cut and dry as you say, and if the gov were to put an end to it, i feel like they should do so over time and invest in a “better child rearing campaign” because altering perceptions people have developed though their lifetime and with their religion are hard to overcome.
but… to the studies…
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ruth, i’m with you.
Carmen, thank you.
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Arch wrote: I view spanking as a quick fix to a complex issue – rather than take the time to discuss the problem with the child and trying to get to the core, spankers apply their version of a “solution,” and move on, which has done nothing for the child, or the original issue.
Not sure I totally agree with you, Arch. Yes, discussion is probably the optimum way to discipline, but each child is different. I had one daughter that I could “talk to,” but the other one? No amount of talking made any difference. She had to “feel” the effects of her misbehavior.
Now, having said that, I think if a parent is going to spank their child, it’s absolutely imperative that s/he not to do it when they are upset or angry. But this can be the tough part because when the child has pulled some prank that may result in long-term consequences, how can one not be upset or angry?
I was spanked as a child and I spanked my own children. From my perspective, it didn’t do any damage to any of us. But who knows? Maybe if we were put under a microscope, we would show the signs of what Victoria has referenced.
Anyway, just thought I would weigh in on the subject, but I do hope we can get back to arguing over Paul and other stuff. 😉
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Correction on my comment to William: “even when the culture is not lacking in resources, no matter the change, this warrior culture can go on for hundreds of years because it’s now in the genes (induced by environment).
I initially wrote “not”.
Glad you caught that NeuroVictoria. Was going to ask you about that as I understood it is in the genes.
Many years ago, when I confronted my parents about spanking my dad was angry and immediately said, ‘It’s nothing compared to what I got.’ We spanked. And then we stopped when I felt I was completely going to fall apart trying to follow James Dobson (barf bucket icon please.)
Talking about the topic, reading about it . . . I begin to shake. Same thing when we lined up for our spankings en masse. Me first and then the others. Traumatic. Details too personal to share and as I said, makes me shake/tremble. One thing I did was to cry early and my spanking would end. Another sibling, stubborn would not cry and the spankings continued until he broke and that was just as traumatic for the rest of us. I’d be standing there thinking, ‘Cry damn it. It will end.’
I regret having been spanked and I regret spanking. I know there is great diversity of experience with this topic. I sincerely believe that the risk is not worth taking as each child is unique and we can’t possibly know what the consequences will be with each one. My 0.2 cents Canadian.
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That one made my computer screen blurry, Zoe. I wish that hadn’t happened to you. xx
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you know, that’s what i like about all this and all of you. We’re discussing a very personal and controversial topic like rational adults.
We all want what’s best and I value each of your opinions.
now that you all know I am right, we can get back to paul.
that was also a joke. as poor as it may have been.
in time, i think man kind will get better. I’ll read the research and be glad that I didn’t share in Zoe’s experience.
My parents fury wasnt really fury. they spanked hard and often when we were young, but gradually and purposefully decreased in frequency as we got older, when they felt reason had more of an impact. But brother, they fully believed in spankings. Mother and father both well versed and rehearsed in its finer techniques.
Of course, my fondness to the blisterings are only because I’m so far removed from them now and likely only frustrate people like zoe.
zoe, sorry, not my intent to make like of something hurtful to you.
\Brandon / laurie,
why the bible? what makes it believable to you?
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“I sincerely believe that the risk is not worth taking as each child is unique and we can’t possibly know what the consequences will be with each one.”
Zoe, I think you are spot on. Why take the chance. I was spanked as a kid, too. Switches and belts, and hands. I was a good kid, really. But if I saw an injustice, say, my sister or brother was spanked, I would ask my parents why this was necessary. At times I knew they knew I had more awareness than them. Needless to say, that didn’t go over too well, so I’d get spanked for questioning. My dad was in the military, both of my parents were stressed, had a rocky marriage. I think they took it out on us kid. My parents weren’t monsters. They just did what they were taught. Nevertheless, I did battle with depression for much of my youth and into early adulthood. Like you mentioned, each child is unique; why take the chance.
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{{{{Zoe}}}} Why are my eyes watering?!?
I did a post a long time ago on Mike and Debi Pearl’s book, How to Train Up a Child. In their book they advocate “spanking” children with a length of pvc pipe – babies as young as six months old. It brings the most people to my blog searching for “what size pvc pipe to spank an infant”. Well, that and ‘does demonic possession cause pupils to dilate’ or some variation of it.
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No need to say you are sorry William. Believe it or not, it took courage for me to invest in being vulnerable here. Seems I trust you all. ❤ These conversations are healthy and meaningful. They help us and help others. Not frustrated in the least. Just farther along in the journey now with time to reflect. I would have given anything to have a conversation like this when we were younger.
Carmen thanks. (((hugs)))
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My parents were young NeuroVictoria. They didn’t have a clue. Much stress. Depression, anxiety, worry, fear, atoning for their sin of getting pregnant with me out of wedlock and the beat goes on. They loved us, love us, they just weren’t equipped. On the outside no one would know. On the inside we all carry our scars.
And your mention of the genes . . . my dad’s dad left home at age 11 due to domestic violence on his own mother and on him, but when he left, my great-grandfather started in on the next in line. 😦
There other things we could mention in regards to spanking, I am wondering about a possible blog friend of yours who wrote about the fact that our bottoms are located near our genitals. I think I found him through your blog? Gosh I had never ever thought about that before.
About how if our parents hit us then others can hit us too which then makes one wonder if we won’t end up vulnerable to abuse down the line from our partners.
Then considering each child as unique, keep in my their learning differences, and whether disciplining with even the healthiest form of spanking is nothing but violence to a child, confusing them and in turn leading to their being violent right back at you. There’s just so much to consider.
Ruth (((hugs))).
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spelling & grammatical errors there . . . time to get off the computer 🙂
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