So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.
There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.
I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?
Finding Truth 
“They loved us, love us, they just weren’t equipped. On the outside no one would know. On the inside we all carry our scars.”
I agree, Zoe. I knew my parents loved us, but I think it gets very confusing for children when physical and emotional pain is inflicted on them by those that love them. Add to the confusion, the influence of an authoritarian religion and a “loving” god who will send you to hell if you don’t follow the rules. Just too much for kids to have to deal with, especially since their prefrontal cortex is not fully developed and they lack critical thinking skills.
“There other things we could mention in regards to spanking, I am wondering about a possible blog friend of yours who wrote about the fact that our bottoms are located near our genitals.”
Perhaps it was Jonny, at Leaving Fundamentalism. http://leavingfundamentalism.wordpress.com/ He did a few posts on corporal punishment, and he may have been referencing the extensive research of psychologist Alice Miller who devoted her career to studying child abuse and its long-term effects on the individual and society.
Zoe, I’m sorry for what you went through. So many of us have been there in varying degrees. It’s hard to talk about this subject because I know there are some truly caring people here who meant well in raising their children the best they knew how. We live in a world that places very little emphasis on educating people about parenthood. Parents have, throughout history, had to wing it and were and still are often influenced by archaic religious books that offer no short-term solutions, and lack understanding about child development.
Thank you for having the courage to be vulnerable and share so personally.
*hugs*
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Geesh, I with you Zoe, I probably need to step away from the computer, too. I meant to write — “archaic religious books that only offer short-term solutions (ineffectual long-term).”
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“Do they suffer the same negative effects as those who are spanked?” – You tell me, William – are they free to end the pain anytime they wish? I think not, because the one who exercises is making a choice, and choosing to do it to themselves – a child who is hit, has no such choice.
We laud free thinkers, then beat children until they think as we do.
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“does giving shots to toddlers, who dont understand why they’re getting inoculated, suffer the same adverse affects as those who are spanked?”
Yes. As a little child, my sister and I were either very sickly or my Mom was overly cautious, but we were continually being given blood tests or shots of some kind, and let me tell you it DID have an adverse effect. As I grew older, I fought myself to watch as some lab tech found a vein, inserted a needle and drew blood, and have since overcome my fear, but it was there, and it was a struggle – I won’t bore you with the stories. Fortunately, I grew up to be one of those who never gets sick.
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Not Johnny, though it was a young man, younger than Johnny if I remember.
The young man I remember has a name that starts with a *C* and I think he has a history of abuse, sexual? The point he brought to everyone’s attention was the involuntary sexual arousal that occurs with the rush of blood flow to that area. Along those lines. It was fascinating to me because one of my siblings always pee’d her pants with a spanking, either while waiting her turn/fear or during. In our youth we were spanked on our bare bottoms over our dad’s knees/thighs. Doesn’t take an Einstein to sort through that scenario.
The other thing is, the dysfunction, confusion etc. I think helps turn many of us toward a religion. Jesus was my salvation. As a young person I knew He loved me because the Bible told me so as I learned via my church songs/lessons. Right? Jesus was a sure foundation for those developing on a cracked foundation. Jesus never spanked me. Thank God for Jesus and thank God for church. Hoping you all follow what I’m getting at here.
Thanks Victoria.
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Not to change the subject, but has anyone heard about the “Trojan Horse” scandal in Birmingham, England?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/10975242/Trojan-Horse-Leaked-report-reveals-aggressive-Islamist-agenda-in-Birmingham-schools.html
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“I’ve said many times that I got whippings when I was a kid and I turned out alright, so it must not be too bad.”
This is the sentiment most often heard from people who were spanked. I know for a fact that it was the rationale given by my idiot son-in-law when he converted my daughter, who was never spanked a day in her life, from one who refused to allow her children to be spanked, into one who now spanks herself.
The unanswerable question, is how would you have turned out if you hadn’t been?
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“and if the gov were to put an end to it”
Why should the government have to put an end to it, William? Can’t we do it ourselves? If we look to the government for everything, aren’t we just replacing one sky-daddy with another?
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“Aggression? would competitive sports promote aggression too and are they also bad?”
I have a personal, private theory – no research to back it up – that those who are best at rough and tumble contact sports, like American football and boxing, are the ones with the most pent-up anger. I base this on high school football players that I have personally observed.
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“She had to ‘feel’ the effects of her misbehavior.”
Nan, I’ve never seen the child who couldn’t be reached.
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Neuro, RE: “I was a good kid, really. ” – So what happened?
(Yeah, I know – “Fudd you!”)
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“The young man I remember has a name that starts with a *C* and I think he has a history of abuse, sexual?”
Yes, now I remember. That was Cat. Does that ring a bell? I haven’t found that particular comment, but as I recall it was also discussed on Jonny’s blog.
Here’s an article by a psychologist in your country: See #7
http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/tenreasons.html
But I wanted to posted another one of his comments from my blog (not related to spanking) I came across while looking for that particular comment: He’s from the UK.
“Great post and very close to home. Mum’s side of the family were Roman Catholics and she instilled the fear of God’s wrath from a very early age. I’m not sure if I had an understanding of people’s idea of heaven, but I certainly had the full visuals of a burning hell for all the bad children.
Fortunately, my early memory of these RC beliefs was that they were probably untrue. Rather than persuade some good behaviour, I learned to mistrust most of what Mum was saying. When it came to the important stuff in childhood, I had already switched off and would never listen to her advice. It usually involved God or his punishment in some form, so it was easy to switch off.
I was also disturbed by the Old Testament stories of parents sacrificing children or selling them to slavery. We learned some of this at a very early age in Bible class. It made me mistrust my parent’s even more. What used to bother me about Noah’s Ark was how the nasty old man could only take some of the animals and leave the rest to drown. Another one that used to get me was the tragic story of Job in the Old T and how the poor man suffered, but still made excuses for his God.”
Zoe, I can relate to your last paragraph about Jesus. In saying that, as a child, I wasn’t afraid of Jesus, I was afraid of his father.
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“So what happened?
(Yeah, I know – “Fudd you!”)”
LOL
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Since William seems to want the government to “do something,” I suggest it hand out an operator’s manual with each newborn.
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“I probably need to step away from the computer, too.” – if those of us who make mistakes would apply that solution, this would be a blank page.
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Arch, you seem a little out of sorts today …
Anyway, you may never have seen a child who couldn’t be reached, but you are not “god” — ya’ know, that guy who sees all, knows all, and is everywhere at once?
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(My) last word on spanking —
Children are for hugging, not for hitting.
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Not sure where you going with this, Arch. This short video is from Harvard — Center on the Developing Child. It describes the need to focus on building the capabilities of caregivers and strengthening the communities that together form the environment of relationships essential to children’s lifelong learning, health, and behavior.
If we are to see change in the world, it will not come from archaic, authoritarian religious book.
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I should emphasis “positive” change.
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Take one look at Arizona Governor Jan Brewer, and if you’ll listen REALLY carefully, you can hear her cackle, “I’ll get you me pretty, and your little dog too!“
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“I probably need to step away from the computer, too.” – if those of us who make mistakes would apply that solution, this would be a blank page.”
Thanks Arch. I’ve made my fair share of them today for sure. I’ll proof, and still my brain sees what I intended to write rather than what I actually wrote.
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“Arch, you seem a little out of sorts today …”
Yeah, hearing people say they have to hurt children because they can’t reach them any other way, has that effect on me.
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“Not sure where you going with this, Arch.”
Not really going anywhere with it – I got one with my weed-eater, and think it’s only fair I should have gotten one with my kid.
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Gotcha. Well, if you follow the bible’s instruction, you should stone the kids to death for “disrespecting” their parents or use an object and physically beat them into submission, thus sparing their soul from hell. That’s some parent, that’s some “guide” book. It counters all the peer-reviewed research on promoting the well being of the children and brain development. Yet another strike against this god of the bible.
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OK, we understand, Arch. But I/we were at different places in our lives at the time we were doing/receiving the spankings. Speaking for myself, as I’ve grown older and looked back, I would like to think I would have done things differently. But who knows? In any case, it is what it is. All we can do now is hope our kids and grandkids take a different approach.
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