So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.
There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.
I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?
Finding Truth 
Well, with all of that valuable advice fixed firmly in mind, if you’ll excuse me, I have a date with a bowl of chili! Like most of my dates, only one of us will survive. (“There can be only one!” – Highlander)
Is it just me, or did anyone else ever wonder why Adrian Paul never played James Bond?
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LOL — Go raise your blood sugar. Enjoy your date.
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@Howie,
Laurie rejects the doctrine of grace, so I’m assuming she thinks practicing Torah will be an important part of the salvation process. Even so, you made a brilliant observation which from your perspective must be highly theoretical. That’s awesome! I agree with you that even if we are saved by grace, that does not necessarily mean God does not want us to practice Torah. So, the real question is, does God indeed want us to practice Torah somehow like the Reformed Jews?
I think it will depend on which part of the Torah. We all agree on the universal moral law, but anything further will need to be decided. In making this decision I think the most important criterion is inclusion. It seems the anti-Paul sect is acting to exclude and setting up barriers by forcing the Torah customs and rituals on the church. From Paul’s perspective they disregard the work of Christ: “In [Christ’s] flesh he has made [Jews and Gentiles] into one and has broken down the dividing wall, that is, the hostility between us. He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace, and might reconcile both groups to God in one body through the cross, thus putting to death that hostility through it.” This is why they have to reject Paul. In the same regard, I think the anti-Paul sect goes against the Jerusalem Council decision to not require Gentiles to observe the law which is a step towards inclusion.
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There may have been practicing Jews in the Christian church even after the Jerusalem Council and on into the fourth century until the Catholic church decided to make everything uniform. But, uniformity is not the same as unity. We can be unified under Christ and practice different customs and even hold variable doctrine and political beliefs according to our consciences. We are still under Christ, working towards building each other up even when we disagree. Anyway, sorry if I’m getting preachy. 🙂
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“Even so, you made a brilliant observation which from your perspective must be highly theoretical. That’s awesome!”
THERE’S the old Brandon! I wondered where he had gone.
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@Dave
“How do you know what the standards are for something being divinely inspired? Where did you get these standards from?”
You must judge for yourself starting with whether or not you believe that your conscious mind and this universe came into existence on purpose and if the Creator would ever want to interact with creation. Rationality will only be helpful in certain ways because it cannot adjudicate all questions.Then, how can you adjudicate the question of interest? Keep asking it and keep investigating, and maybe something will be compelling. You will have to search for the standard within yourself and it will be challenging and risky.
@Ruth
Yes, I did answer this question one time, and I went back and looked at it! I don’t think anyone liked my answer.
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@Laurie
Before I get into specifics, I still think Acts, especially the Jerusalem Council, is a huge problem for the anti-Paul sect’s requirement for practicing Torah.
“Messiah said not one jot will pass from the law till heaven and earth pass away.”
Unfortunately for both of us, Jesus’ statement is not very clear because it entirely depends on what he means by “until all is accomplished”.
“Messiah, like Peter, never ate anything unclean.”
Peter was “living like a Gentile” while in Antioch until he feared the circumcision faction (Galatians 2:19). What evidence do you to support that Peter always kept kosher?
“The council thought this must have been a mistake, how could Paul a Jew that is supposedly doing all these great works for messiah, be preaching against the law? This is why he took the vow, to show that he does keep the law.”
I’m glad you pressed this issue because it seems to be different than for the purposes of evangelism. So, I think there are two major possibilities. 1) James and the elders wanted Paul to take the vow in order to protect him from imprisonment/punishment, or 2) James and the elders wanted Paul to take the vow because they thought Jewish Christians like Paul ought to observe the customs. Either way they are certainly not implying that all Christians ought to observe the customs because they tell Paul about the letter to the Gentiles with 4 rules. Since this was several years after the Jerusalem Council, why hadn’t they sent out additional rules for Gentiles? Also, note that Peter is missing (maybe he’s trekking to Rome at this time). Peter might have had a different opinion since he was “living like a Gentile” while in Antioch (Galatians 2:19).
“Was Paul arrested for a belief in the resurrection?”
The author of Acts seems to want to show that Paul manipulated the council to make them bicker. I think this falls short of false prophecy and false apostleship. I doubt the author would be okay with such an accusation seeing that he esteemed Paul even calling him an apostle in chapter 14 verse 14. I think using Acts against Paul is pretty well inexcusable from a literary standpoint.
“Below Paul tells Agrippa that he went to Jerusalem and Judea first”
This is blatantly false, Acts 26:20 clearly states he went to Damascus first.
“Have you read the first 2 chapters of [Galatians]? Do you know why he lied to them, and why he called the true apostle false? Have you read 2 Corinthians 11?”
Yes, I’ve read the whole New Testament. What do you mean “called the true apostle false”?
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he unanswerable question, is how would you have turned out if you hadn’t been?
Well, sure. I’m not advocating spanking and there are a lot of things in my life that might have been different. I’ll never know.
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Yes Victoria, I think his name is Cat.
Well on the lathe of life Arch there’s no telling how I would have turned out. For me, there were many many more turns than spanking. It truly is unanswerable, as you say.
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Zoe – ‘lathe of life’ — love that line!
So many unanswered (and perhaps unanswerable) questions in life, eh? But, hey – it keeps us all busy at armchair philosophy. So there IS that! Hope everyone has a great day!
Here on the east coast of Canada, we have a furnace fire going – yes, really!
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“Yes Victoria, I think his name is Cat.” – FWIW, Zoe, Cat’s avatar is blue, and appears to be that the silhouette of a man, seated in what I would call “The Thinker” position.
Anybody know why silhouette has an “h” in it? Silly Frenchmen —
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“Zoe – ‘lathe of life’ — love that line! ” – Absolutely! It conjures the image of a chisel removing scrapings until the desired shape is acquired, implying a painful process. What descriptive imagery so early in the morning.
Venus and Mars are both out this morning, one on each side of the moon, riding the galactic plane.
Carmen – at least you didn’t chop all that wood earlier this month for nothing! How’re the Aussies? (Not you, Portal –)
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“we have a furnace fire going” – I know you chopped (split) wood, Carmen, but that might have been for the fireplace – does your furnace use wood or oil? I have a lady friend in New Hampshire, to the South of you, who said her furnace oil was running her $700 (US) per month last winter, and I bitched because my electric bill broke a hundred.
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Zoe, it sounds like there’s a very painful story in there somewhere, but it was yours to live, not mine to know. For what it’s worth, I’m sorry.
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arch, we have a wood/oil furnace but never turn the oil on unless we’re away (just to keep the water pipes from freezing) – we’re frugal (much better word than CHEAP!! 🙂 Aussies are good. They’re having a great time!
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Carmen – how deep is your frost-line there?
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arch, it must be about 4 ft. because when putting footings in, I know there are strict by-laws and any construction done must follow the ‘rules’ – anything that’s ever done here is around that depth.
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Arch, I suspect you’re right when it comes to those who excel at competitive sports. My question is, is that bad?
And I don’t want the government to do anything. I mean, I think gov has a role, but i dont want them legislating child rearing or discipline. I mentioned it because I’ve recently read articles where some people are saying it should be illegal and those who spank their kids should face jail time. I disagree with that and was only saying IF the gov were to do something, i hope that it is reserved and implemented in stages.
i personally think many take it too far and do it far to often. Some parents spank their kids because they’re crying – which seems odd, “I spank ’em and I spank ’em, but they just wont stop crying.” So I certainly get the notion that it’s archaic and ridiculous and harsh, and I may eventually reach a point where i think spanking for any reason and to any degree is bad – i’m just not quite there yet.
I have spanked my own children very little (and not near as harshly as i was) and am considering whether I will any more at all, but even so, i don’t want to tell other parents how they should raise their own, and I dont like the gov telling me what to do at all. I’m not a libertarian though, so please dont call me one.
I am curious to make it through all the research to see how it was conducted and what all was taken into account when forming their conclusions. I wonder if all pain or discomfort to any degree is bad. I wonder if there are any redeeming effects in spanking at all. even if it’s only short term, why not implement short term and long term solutions simultaneously?
I think many people talk about this issue in the extremes; “spanking is good” or “spanking is bad” or “spanking is violence toward children, therefore wrong” or “spanking helps kids.”
I dont think these generalizations are helpful because when we get in the specific scenarios, anyone can clearly see that spanking a child till they bleed is going too far, or spanking a child because they sneezed is not good by any means.
And conversely, swatting a child because they keep biting their sister, is not at all the same as punching a child in the stomach. It’s not the same as blistering a child’s butt because they spilled daddy’s bear or got in the way of his football game on TV.
and I dont like the “it takes more work for parents to explain things to their children and teach them than it does to just spank them.” This is shortsighted because it is only speaking to one type of parenting. And in this approach, spanking your kids and teaching them and explaining things to them is even more work, but I doubt the “more work” would convince a person who thinks spanking is bad, that spanking is now okay. Likewise, saying “not spanking is more work” does little to convince the people who are convinced it does work, will only make them think you’re implying they’re lazy parents, which really may not be the case.
When I’ve spanked my kids, they’ve never had welts like i did. They weren’t spanked until they cried, as if making them cry were the goal. They dont flinch or hide when I get near them or walk into the room. I never took pleasure in it. I felt like it was the best way to get the results I think are necessary, it was never the only tool I think I have as a parent.
That being said, I may only feel that way because I’m a monkey, and monkey see, monkey do, after all. If there is zero benefit, and if there are only negative impacts on the kid, then I certainly don’t want to do it. So I’ll have to make my way through all the research. but i’ll need to be convinced.
and at the same, while anecdotal, my own experiences and observations still are not worthless. Not all of my children have been spanked an equal amount. It’s not because I am unfair, it’s because I know my kids, and I try to pay attention to what motivates them. what works and what does not.
I’m still learning though. I hope to always be, too.
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William, I can see that you have been giving this topic quite a bit of thought. I have, as well. It seems to me that the crux of the argument about spanking is this – it’s a completely one-sided power dynamic. Parents are bigger, stronger, and have the emotional and physical power to overwhelm kids. In that scenario, it’s just too easy for an adult to abuse – even if that was not the intent. For that reason, I have come to the conclusion that it is just wrong – all spanking.
And for what it’s worth, William, I think we are all life-long learners and that is as it should be.
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“Messiah said not one jot will pass from the law till heaven and earth pass away.”
Unfortunately for both of us, Jesus’ statement is not very clear because it entirely depends on what he means by “until all is accomplished”.”
This is a pretty clear statement Brandon. The law stands as long as the earth is still here. Until all is accomplished, is a reference to the plan of redemption, and the restoration of all things. It is just like it sounds, when this earth is gone, YHWH will create a new earth where there is no sin, no pain and every tear will be wiped away. This is the restoration. The last feast, is the feast of tabernacle where messiah reigns and brings about world peace. This lasts for 1000 years. The wicked are still here, and the judgement hasn’t happened. When this is over then the plan of redemption will be complete, and the 7 feasts fulfilled. Then the new earth
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“My question is, is that bad?” – I can’t imagine how running around with all of that pent-up rage and frustration could be anything but.
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“Peter might have had a different opinion since he was “living like a Gentile” while in Antioch (Galatians 2:19).”
We have already established that Paul lied. This is also a lie. But Paul had a reason for every thing he did. In Galatians, Paul had already been shown to be the false apostle Messiah spoke about. Here is his last ditch effort to show his converts, that it is the twelve that are false and not him. “Before God he’s not lying”
Take your time and read the first two chapters of Galatians again. Any atheist here could read it, and see what is plain right away. The problem for anyone religious is, you already think you have the truth. Every where you look, your looking to confirm what you already know is true and correct. You have to look at scripture without all that. Galatians is a great place to start, because it really is very clear what he is saying
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Brandon, that’s a very interesting, mysterious answer. So your theory is that if we were created then the creator(s) must have embedded some morsels of truth deep within us? Your method requires a lot of assumptions and it would be hard for me to follow along.
1. Assume the universe was created
2. Assume it was done on purpose
3. Assume a single entity was involved in that creation
4. Assume this entity wants to create humans
5. Assume this entity wants to interact in some way with us
6. Assume this entity gave us some deep truth that we have to find within ourselves
7. Assume this deep truth will lead us to the Bible
I have given all of these a lot of thought and investigation and so far I have not found compelling evidence that would support all of these assumptions. Furthermore, I think there is compelling evidence that the Bible is purely man-made. Such as:
1. Competing doctrines within the Bible (one example is Israelite nationalism [Ezra] vs universalism [Jonah] which is explained pretty well in “The Human Faces of God” by Thom Stark.)
2. Competing interpretations of the Bible (Despite claims that the Holy Spirit is indwelling Christians and helps them discern the truth from scripture)
3. Historical and scientific mistakes (hares do not “chew the cud”, Quirinius and Herod)
4. Ideas that mirror the time period in which they were written (slavery, misogyny, genocide, etc)
5. The lengthy process of putting different books together into what we now call the Bible.
6. The fabulous tales of epic proportions that mirror other man-made folklore.
I could keep going, but you’re probably already aware of all of this and more.
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Laurie, perhaps I am just a cynic but it seems to me that picking out lies in the bible would be akin to picking out pepper from flysh*t. . .
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“The wicked are still here, and the judgement hasn’t happened.”
Laurie, who are the wicked? Those who exhibited antisocial behavior due to brain damage, or tumors, or childhood trauma, or attachment disorders due to childhood neglect, etc.?
Or are they the ones who didn’t bow down to your god? Or both?
Early Brain Damage and Development in Social and Moral Reasoning:
“Children who experience early damage in the prefrontal cortex never completely develop social or moral reasoning. As adults, even on an intellectual level, they cannot refer to such behavior because they have little concept of it. In contrast, individuals with adult-acquired damage are usually aware of proper social and moral conduct, but are unable to apply such behaviors.”
http://learn.fi.edu/learn/brain/head.html
In America, alone, someones sustains a traumatic brain injury ever 15 seconds. Why does it seem like your god is not aware of any of this?
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