So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.
There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.
I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?
Finding Truth 
By the way Brandon, I do believe in grace. The word for grace in Greek is charis, and in Hebrew it is chesed. The difference is, that in the Tanakh, chesed is translated mercy. Israel has always believed that they were saved by grace, but not apart from the works of the law.
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“It is just like it sounds, when this earth is gone, YHWH will create a new earth”
Just so I can be sure I understand this, Laurie, what with my limited intellect and all, you’re saying that four and a half billion years from now, after our sun has consumed all of its hydrogen, and begins swelling as it consumes hydrogen’s by-product, helium, until it becomes what is known as a Red Giant star, whose outer layers will extend all the way to the orbit of Mars and will have evaporated the Earth – that your YHWH will then create a new Earth? Any hints in there as to its proposed location? It certainly wouldn’t be wise to put it in orbit around an unstable star.
And since anything left of whatever we once were will have been totally vaporized – literally atomized – then I guess physical resurrection is out of the question —
How can an intelligent mind like yours really not see this for the nonsense that it is?
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I don’t think it’s quite that easy, Laurie.
The problem is that this sentence contains two “until” statements. So what does it mean? Does it mean that “until heaven and earth pass away” and “until all is accomplished” are synonymous? Or is it saying that the law will not pass away until it has been fulfilled (vs 17), using “till heaven and earth pass away” figuratively to show his certainty?
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So you think that because Saddam had a bad childhood he should not be judged for the things he did?
My husband was seriously abused, and his mother also, by his step father. His biological father left before he was born. The abuse continued for years, and I’m not talking about a black eye here. When my husband was sixteen, and just reached the height of 6’5″, he realized he didn’t have to let this man abuse his family any more. His step dad got 16 staples in the back of his head before they took him to jail.
My husband had a hard life, his mom worked multiple jobs, and they moved a lot. They were poor.
Today, he is the most loving and gentle person. He would help anybody! He is a great father. When we came back from Iraq the first time, he had some problems with his temper, but he made a choice. The world is an ugly place, but we all have a choice.
The thousand years of peace will be for learning about Ya and his love and mercy. Adolf Hitler would still choose to be evil, there will still be bad people.
Ya judges people based on the knowledge they have. That means the little Muslim girl down the road, who loved people and tried to make this world better, isn’t going to be judged for something she didn’t know. Hitler, is another story.
If you believe in God, you believe in his mercy and fairness.
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Its both Nate.
I have to prepare for Shabbat, so I won’t be around till Sunday, but if you want, after that. I’ll show you from the Tanakh that these things go hand in hand.
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@Ruth
Yes, I did answer this question one time, and I went back and looked at it! I don’t think anyone liked my answer.
If I recall correctly it was the subjective nature of determining the criteria that left us all a little less than impressed.
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What can I say arch? God didn’t give me your mensa iq, unfortunately. I have to work with what I got.
How was your date?
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Laurie, I appreciate you taking the time to share information with us. I think your last line, “If you believe in God, you believe in mercy and fairness” is a bit of a dichotomy for me, though. You see, I don’t see how the two correlate. I definitely do not see God as being either merciful OR fair.
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““My question is, is that bad?” – I can’t imagine how running around with all of that pent-up rage and frustration could be anything but.” – arch
Maybe you’re right. I’ll ponder it. I guess I don’t view all anger and all frustration as bad. It can be and it can certainly get out of hand and maybe even 98% percent of it is, I’m not sure and wouldn’t fight about it.
But people are so complex and interesting; everything about them. What motivates them, what tears them down. Some people thrive and excel under pressure, and some do not. Some people may be more prone to frustration and anger, and perhaps football and boxing are good outlets and coping mechanisms for them.
Males are naturally more aggressive than females. Obviously this must be tempered and I am a fan of self control, but is all aggression bad? I don’t think so. I think most things have a place. Like telling a kid, “I’m disappointed in you.”
Is that bad? Is that even necessary? It’s not necessary, as the child does not need to hear those words to live and grow. It could be bad, especially if that’s all the parent ever said to their kid. But if a parent said that after their kid pissed in the pickle jar and gave one to his grandmother, thinking it was funny, it may be appropriate to tell him, “I am disappointed in you,” with the obviously implication is that the parent is disappointed that their son would do that thing, and not that the child’s entire life has been a disappointment.
I’m thinking it all over and reading up on it all.
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nate, i think laurie is saying that they’re saying the same thing. The earth passing away is part of “all things.”
Laurie, what makes you believe in the OT or any part of the Bible? what there makes you think it’s from god?
brandon, I’m curious to hear your answer to dave.
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Laurie, your husband was fortunate. Child abuse is the 3rd leading cause of prefrontal cortex damage. Your god created and condoned the very condition that causes antisocial behavior. As noted in the article,
“70% of children’s brain injuries affect the frontal cortex. Because growth in the brain’s frontal regions continues throughout young adulthood, early injury there can damage formation of the protective myelin insulation around neurons . This can impair their ability to control emotions and inhibit inappropriate behavior. These kids have trouble responding to subtle social cues and planning difficult tasks.”
You also seem very unaware of Hitler’s childhood. He, too, was brutally abused by his father. Same with Stalin. Count yourself lucky. I suppose it’s the lucky ones who make it to heaven.
How do you know that Saddam or Hitler didn’t have brain damage, or a tumor in the amydala area affecting impulse that can lead to violence, just like Charles Whitman, in the video I shared with Powell Powers? Your all-knowing god is suppose to know the beginning from the end. That makes your god irresponsible and inhumane, does it not?
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Reading it plainly I’d have to side with Laurie on this one. He doesn’t say he wants to abolish the law. Sounds like he is supporting it and that the law will stand until all is accomplished. Also, the next verse supports Lauries view:
Isn’t this the part where we pull out all our different translations and compare them and then get out our commentaries and compare those and so on? Good times.. The irony is that we are looking at what someone wrote about what someone said about what someone said …
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I’ve already spoken up against corporeal punishment for children but, FWIW, william, I also believe those who go past the point of “spanking” to abuse are most likely abusive in other ways as well. You could make all the laws in the world against “spanking” and an abusive person wouldn’t abide by it anyway. And even if they did, they’d likely be emotionally or verbally abusive.
I searched Google on the topic of benefits of spanking since we’ve been discussing it and found this:
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/spanking-kids-perform-better-school-helps-successful-study-article-1.457285
Even timeouts, Dennis says, can have a detrimental effect on kids if imposed when a parent is out of control. “If you give your child a timeout because he or she broke a rule and you want there to be a consequence and you speak calmly, that is one thing,” Dennis says. “But if you are screaming and angry when you give the timeout, it’s not effective.”
Abuse comes in many forms.
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“How was your date?”
The bowl of chili did not survive, however it did attempt a resurrection, which was promptly squelched. I’m thinking tonight – since I don’t have to worry about cooking on Shabbat – barbecued PORK ribs, potato salad and baked beans (with BACON!),
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If you believe in God, you believe in his mercy and fairness.
How do you explain the [God condoned/God commanded] genocide, slavery, misogyny, etc. in the OT?
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baked beans (with BACON!)
Mmmmm….tasty, tasty, bacon. I might be able to be a vegetarian were it not for tasty bacon.
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Ruth, i agree. I actually spoke with my brother yesterday (who didnt get as many as i did) and he feels like spanking is better left out. We did agree, however, that many factors go into parenting, and that there are so many ways to make mistakes or to cause any type of harm.
Just because parent A doesnt spank, doesnt necessarily mean they are better parents that Parent B who does spank. How do they talk to their kids? how do they teach and nurture their kids? what do they punish for, etc?
anyhow, not trying to belabor any point. It’s on my mind as i sort it out, so I share.
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LOL Arch. You are so naughty. Almost as naughty as me.
Laurie, I apologize if my comment came across as terse. I expect more from an all-knowing god, who again, caused and condoned the very environments that lead to “wicked”, or in neuropsychological terms, antisocial behavior. His solution is like the barbaric prison solution of the U.S., with over 60 percent having mental illness according to the U.S. Department of Justice.. “Finding Jesus” isn’t going to heal a damaged brain, just like prison will not rehabilitate someone with mental illness.
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Ruth’s link made me think about this.
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“You also seem very unaware of Hitler’s childhood. He, too, was brutally abused by his father. Same with Stalin. Count yourself lucky. I suppose it’s the lucky ones who make it to heaven.”
I know a bit about Adolf and Stalin, that was my point. Just because they had a bad childhood doesn’t mean they didn’t choose.
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Laurie, that is a very unreasonable and uneducated way to look at it, and is based on little to no understanding of the complexities of the brain damage. Quite frankly, your god is not much different than Hitler or Stalin.
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This blog is like cocaine, a very bad addiction. I really can’t hangout today!
I don’t believe YHWH created this condition, but yes he did allow it. It was in response to the war in heaven, and ultimately it will bring the restoration.
If you believe this is all imaginary, why get so riled up about it?
I really have to go! I must have some chemical defect that makes me check this blog so much!😉
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“I know a bit about Adolf and Stalin, that was my point. Just because they had a bad childhood doesn’t mean they didn’t choose.” – laurie
true, but i want to say, “doesnt mean that they did either.”
But what I dont understand is that if hitler and stalin were predestined to be major A holes due to environmental factors, then maybe we’re predestined to be religious or not be religious, making this whole discussion futile… unless of course we’ve all been codntioned and predisposed to waste our talking about things that cant be altered… I realize it’s not quite as simple as this, and I feel like I’m close to creating a black hole.
BUt I like telling myself that i am in control of myself. I recognize I lean certain ways and that i have predispositions, but i also recognize that I can control many of them. I can choose to act on them or choose to act (or not act) in spite of them, even if i cant choose to not be irritated or whatever.
I’ve been to war. I havent seen the greatest amount of war terrors, but i’ve seen things. About half the guys i went with either have been diagnosed as having or claim to have PTSD. I do not think that i do. I’m not saying that they can help themselves, i dont know. But what makes a person be able to cope and and move on, while others cannot as easily. Is it genes? is it self reflection? Is it environmental factors? Will my PTSD kick in later in life? Is it a combination of all that and more? at present, and despite that bad things, I view my service as being positive overall. I think I’ve learned and grown a lot in such conditions.
I am getting way too off topic maybe, but this is where the discussion is taking me.
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That was not in response to brain damage, but evil in the world.
Thanks for sharing your opinion Victoria! Have a good one!😀
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According to Paul, yes your predestined.
But I don’t believe in Paul, or the unjust god he serves
Okay bye! Really this time 😉
I enjoy reading your thoughts William! We are a bit alike you and I. A bit 😉
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