So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.
There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.
I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?
Finding Truth 
“If you believe this is all imaginary, why get so riled up about it?”
Because those that believe in this imaginary god make laws, encourage tribalism, create environmental conditions that hinder our evolution as a species, and start wars (in the name of their god) that affect the well being of children, families, and society.
Laurie, thanks for tolerating my frank questions and comments, and I hope you have a nice weekend. 🙂
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i agree with neuronotes, laurie.
Asking why we get so riled up about this would be like asking why you get so riled up about paul when you think he’s false.
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Thanks Victoria! I will! Are having a birthday party, for my little one! Fun fun! I hope you have a great weekend too!
If you were in the neighborhood id invite you! It would be fun to talk!
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Laurie, thanks for the invite, and happy birthday to your little one. I would enjoy meeting you in person, as I like you — plus you put up with me. 😀
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@Nate,
Not sure your thoughts Nate, but I see this passage more as a difficulty for Brandon than for Laurie, but I agree with you it is not at all clear – hence the view that you and I and Arch expressed the other day.
I also think that this passage when viewed in the light of the very clear focus on God’s perfect law in the Hebrew Scriptures that is expressed many times as everlasting is a big problem for Pauline Christianity. Verses are poorly picked out of context (like Jeremiah’s new covenant passage) to try and make it look copacetic, but I had some major cognitive disoonance over this issue while I was a Christian, given that I had been raised Jewish. But even subtracting that bias of mine, just reading the Hebrew Scriptures makes it very clear that there is an incredible focus on the law that God had given that was called “perfect” and essential – this I believe is very hard to reconcile Paul’s theology with it. Maybe if Paul had gone along with Marcion it would have worked out better.
I also think the book of James is a bit troubling regarding this whole issue as well, and Martin Luther seems to have agreed, pushing for it (along with several other books) to be removed from canon.
I also have always been bothered by the Galations “hey guys, really, truly, I promise under God, got my fingers crossed even, I am not lying” passage (yeah, I paraphrased 😉 ). In my experience when someone says “really I’m not lying” they actually are lying.
In short, while I obviously see big problems with Laurie’s views as well, I think she is expressing ideas that are clearly showing that this is not simple either way, again reminding me of your “non-believer view looks like the most sustainable one”.
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Because he false! That’s why! I think following him is going to have a negative effect on Christianity! I think he is the cause of anti-Semitism! I think he’s responsible for the inquisition or dark ages, and so much more.
Not yelling, just sayin
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“I also have always been bothered by the Galations “hey guys, really, truly, I promise under God, got my fingers crossed even, I am not lying” passage (yeah, I paraphrased.”
LOL
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Thanks Howie, you get me! I know you don’t agree, but atleast you understand. Christians don’t read the Tanakh it seems, so they don’t see the issues as clearly. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s how it seems from my chair! 😉
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I totally agree, Howie. I do think that Matthew 5 is more problematic for Brandon than Laurie; I was just trying to point out that it’s far from clear, either way.
To me, Laurie’s biggest problem is in explaining why God would allow the NT to be so pro-Paul if he’s a false prophet. Well, that and all the usual problems…
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I’ve been following the conversation between Nate, Laurie, and Brandon. I can see this both ways(which highlights one of the problems with scripture and it’s many possible interpretations). I tend to agree with Howie, that the passage in question bolster’s Laurie’s position moreso than Brandon’s, but I still have a question:
Why would any of the disciples attempt to covertly expose Paul as a false prophet? Why wouldn’t they just come right out and say it given the gravity of the situation in terms of allowing oneself to be deceived?
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@Laurie,
You’re welcome – you are right I do get a lot of what you are saying here.
@Nate:
Yes, I agree with this as well, although I’m not sure every book in the New Testmament is entirely pro-Paul. I do think Acts is probably the biggest problem, and also it just seems like some of the views are a bit mysteriously hidden which just seems weird and to me unlikely.
@Ruth,
Yup, I’ve got the exact same question. It looks like to me from a high level view of taking the info from all the books of that time, that there was a bit of infighting going on among several factions and Paul versus the Jerusalem crew were not quite in synch. Perhaps they were trying to work it out, but it wasn’t perfectly smooth. And for all we know editing may have been going on as documents were being copied to support either side. Conjecture yes, but not unlikely given that the redaction curves grow almost exponentially the closer it gets to the original writings (not sure if you’ve seen those curves – very interesting).
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@Howie,
To add to yours and Ruth’s questions, why would such a god allow for a book, that has become the best-selling and most widely distributed book in the world, the most (supposedly representing the nature and word of this god) and not make know the original writing (if they exist)?
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Correction: not make known
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A little relief humor: Was Jesus Smelly?
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“all wiggling about”
LOLOL
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“Ruth’s link made me think about this.”
William, that video reminded me of when I was in Catholic school. I had a nun who slapped her students in the face or popped them upside their heads. It was considered perfectly acceptable “discipline” by the Catholic school administration.
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“LOL Arch. You are so naughty. Almost as naughty as me.” – it’s a gift —
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“This blog is like cocaine, a very bad addiction. I really can’t hangout today!”
GO! Make your matza balls and anything else you’re having (likely not ham steak with sausage gravy –)
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Neuronotes, so the Blues Brothers portrayal of the penguin was spot on, then?
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William, yes indeed.
Nuns scared the bejesus out of me. I must tell you that I was reminded of you talking to your children when watching the scene where she says “You are such a disappointing pair.”
Sorry, I mean no disrespect — I couldn’t help mentioning it. 😈
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@Victoria,
I agree Victoria. I think Paul’s biggest screw up may be even worse than the screw ups that Laurie is alluding to – he had to go ahead say that the god he believed in wasn’t the author of confusion. Pretty big count against his case.
This is why one of my theories I have about this whole thing is that if there really are gods that exist there are probably a few of them who are sitting around having beer and laughing it up at how they’ve been messing with our minds with all the different religions they’ve helped create. While it sounds funny, and I don’t really believe that, I think that hypothesis solves so many more conundrums that the all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing personal God that a lot of mono-theists are trying to sell.
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It is also a testament to mankind’s creativity and imagination.
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Neuro, RE: “Laurie, that is a very unreasonable and uneducated way to look at it” – probably not the most tactful statement you could have made, had you had hopes of advancing a discussion.
Laurie, RE: “I know a bit about Adolf and Stalin, that was my point. Just because they had a bad childhood doesn’t mean they didn’t choose.”
I think you’re missing what Neuro is saying – if brain damage via injury or illness (tumor) has in any way weakened or neutralized the center of the brain responsible for rational decisions, then their “choices” couldn’t be said to really BE choices.
(It’s simple psychology, really – I figure the best way to get you two together is to get you both pissed at me and defending each other – amity = enmity + hazard, with me being the hazard – and since there seems to already be such an inclination in place on both counts, it shouldn’t be that difficult.)
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I dunno arch. . . sounds like hazardous jackassery to me. . .watch yourself! 🙂
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