Sigh…
So here’s what’s been going on lately. Most of you who read this blog already know that when my wife and I left Christianity, it wrecked most of our family relationships. My wife’s parents and siblings, as well as my own, felt that they could no longer interact with us socially after our deconversion. We were no longer invited to any family functions, and our communication with them all but disappeared. We would speak if it was about religious issues, or if there were logistic issues that needed to be worked out in letting them see our kids, etc.
Over the years, things have gotten a little better, especially with my wife’s parents. Things are by no means back to normal, but at least our infrequent interactions have become more civil and more comfortable. A few weeks ago, I even had a phone conversation with my father that lasted about half an hour and had no references to religion whatsoever. It was nice.
Nevertheless, the awkwardness is still there, just under the surface. And we’re still blacklisted from all the family functions.
Throughout this time, I’ve occasionally reached out to my side of the family with phone calls, letters, facebook messages, etc, in an effort to discuss the issues that divide us. I don’t get much response. I’ve always been puzzled by that, since I know they think I’m completely wrong. If their position is right, why aren’t they willing to discuss it?
In the last five years, I’ve also been sent books and articles and even been asked to speak to certain individuals, and I’ve complied with every request. Why not? How could more information hurt? But when I’ve suggested certain books to them, or written letters, they aren’t read. When I finally realized that my problems with Christianity weren’t going to be resolved, I wrote a 57-page paper to my family and close friends, explaining why I could no longer call myself a Christian. As far as I know, none of them ever read the whole thing. And sure, 57 pages is quite a commitment. But they say this is the most important subject in their lives…
This past week, the topic has started to come back around. A local church kicked off a new series on Monday entitled “Can We Believe the Bible?” It’s being led by an evangelist/professor/apologist that was kind enough to take time to correspond with me for several weeks in the summer of 2010. I’ve never met him in person, but a mutual friend connected us, since he was someone who was knowledgeable about the kinds of questions I was asking. Obviously, we didn’t wind up on the same page.
My wife’s parents invited us to attend the series, but it happens to be at a time that I’m coaching my oldest daughter’s soccer team. So unless we get rained out at some point, there’s no way we can attend. However, we did tell them that if practice is ever cancelled, we’ll go. I also contacted the church and asked if the sermons (if that’s the right word?) will be recorded, and they said that they should be.
Monday night, the weather was fine, so we weren’t able to attend. And so far, the recording isn’t available on their website. However, they do have a recording of Sunday night’s service available, which is entitled “Question & Answer Night.” I just finished listening to it, and that’s where the bulk of my frustration comes from.
It’s essentially a prep for the series that kicked off Monday night. They’re discussing why such a study is important, as well as the kinds of things they plan to cover. What’s so frustrating to me is that I don’t understand the mindset of evangelists like this. I mean, they’ve studied enough to know what the major objections to fundamentalist Christianity are, yet they continue on as if there’s no problem. And when they do talk about atheists and skeptics, they misrepresent our position. I can’t tell if they honestly believe the version they’re peddling, or if they’re purposefully creating straw men.
A couple of times, they mentioned that one of the main reasons people reject the Bible comes down to a preconception that miracles are impossible. “And if you start from that position, then you’ll naturally reject the Bible.” But that’s a load of crap. Most atheists were once theists, so their starting position was one that believed in miracles.
They also mentioned that so many of these secular articles and documentaries “only show one side.” I thought my head was going to explode.
And they referred to the common complaints against the Bible as “the same tired old arguments that have been answered long ago.” It’s just so infuriating. If the congregants had any knowledge of the details of these “tired old arguments,” I doubt they’d unanimously find the “answers” satisfactory. But the danger with a series like this is that it almost works like a vaccination. The members of the congregation are sitting in a safe environment, listening to trusted “experts,” and they’re injected with a watered down strain of an argument. And it’s that watered down version that’s eradicated by the preacher’s message. So whenever the individual encounters the real thing, they think it’s already been dealt with, and the main point of the argument is completely lost on them.
For example, most Christians would be bothered to find out that the texts of the Bible are not as reliable as were always led to believe. Even a beloved story like the woman caught in adultery, where Jesus writes on the ground, we’ve discovered that it was not originally part of the gospel of John. It’s a later addition from some unknown author. To a Christian who’s never heard that before, it’s unthinkable! But if they’ve gone through classes where they’ve been told that skeptics exaggerate the textual issues in the Bible, and that the few changes or uncertainties deal with only very minor things, and that none of the changes affect any doctrinal points about the gospel, then it’s suddenly easier for them to swallow “minor” issues like the insertion of an entire story into the gospel narrative.
Sigh…
I’m going to either attend these sessions, or I’ll watch/listen to them once they’re available online. I may need to keep some blood pressure medication handy, though.
Finding Truth 
Gary-
I don’t think the examinations of the language Jesus used in reference to ‘hell’ are “Christian” per se. They are just examinations of what the words mean. Aren’t they? Is it totally unbelievable that, for centuries, we simply misunderstood what was being said? We clearly misunderstood Jesus’ teaching on grace toward those who are outcast even to this day. The man sat down with those the religious leaders called ‘sinners’ and ‘unclean’, those the religious leaders wouldn’t be caught dead even being near. We get all of that wrong despite Jesus’ actions and teachings. How much more likely we misunderstand something about an ‘eternal’ idea that none of us has any access to whatsoever?
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I agree with you, Josh. Fallible human beings can get things very confused when trying to understand what God the Creator really said when reading books by anonymous authors; therefore, authors whom you cannot question to ask what they meant or what the persons they allegedly were quoting really meant.
But the Holy Spirit should know. And the Bible says that the Holy Spirit reveals truth to believers. So how is it possible that NOT ONE SINGLE Christian, for almost 2,000 years, was told by the Holy Spirit, the following:
1. Hell is figurative. Don’t scare people with images of fire and brimstone.
2. The earth was not created in six days and is not 6,000 years old.
3. There never was a flood that covered the entire earth and the mountains by 22 cubits of water. This was only a regional flood in the Euphrates River Valley (and the story in Genesis is a re-working of the Babylonian flood story about Gilgamesh.)
4. The earth is a sphere.
5. The sun does not revolve around the earth.
6. Seizures are not caused by demon possession.
7. There is a cure for leprosy. (Jesus just didn’t tell anyone about it.)
I could go on.
Why Josh? Why did an all-knowing God write a holy book containing so many errors in basic science, geology, archaeology, and medicine, or, if we want to retain a belief in his perfection, why did he do such a sloppy, confusing job of dictating his holy words that he left humanity in profound confusion on these subjects for thousands of years?
Millions of people, including innocent little children and babies, have suffered and died excruciating deaths from diseases that we now know are easily treatable…but not due to the profound wisdom in the Bible, but due to reason and science.
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Gary-
This may very well be accurate. Clearly, I come at this from a different perspective than you. We may never see eye to eye. I’ve come to the definite realization that, while I do see some problems in some things that skeptics have said or written in response to Christians, my faith is most definitely more the result of a desperate hope than it is of well-reasoned arguments and solid evidence. And, let me also say that, if God turns out to be the kind of God who damns people forever in hell for not having enough information when he didn’t offer conclusive information, I’d like to at least think that I will be the first to flip him the bird and make my way toward the Devil’s playground.
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Jesus never said “Hell”. The word he used is written in Greek as “Gehenna”. “Gehenna” – Gehinnom – is a Jewish concept.
Jews believe that when people die, their spirits go to one of two places: Gan Eden – literally the Garden of Eden, which in Greek is “Paradise” (NOT “Heaven” – “Heaven” – ha’shamayim in Hebrew and ouranos in Greek, means “sky”), or Gehenna.
The spirits of the very good, clean and pure go immediately to Gan Eden, a place of delight.
Everybody else goes into Gehenna, a dry place of heat, and there, they are cleansed of their sins and do penance for them. Eventually, most rise out of Gehenna to Gan Eden. Some traditions say 1 year maximum. The depth to which a spirit is pushed into Gehenna is related to the severity of the sins that the person has. The very worst sinners – those who have committed the most monstrous crimes – are pushed very deep and never leave Gehenna.
So, Jewish Gehenna is “Hell”, but Hell, to the Jews, is Purgatorial; it is hot and painful, but it is cleansing.
If we’re going to translate what Jesus said into comprehensible terms, we should write “Purgatory”, not “Hell”, because Gehenna is Jewish, and Jewish Gehenna is NOT eternal, for any but the very worst.
Jesus tells us as much in the case of the unforgiving servant, the one who is forgiven a massive debt but who refuses to forgive a small one by another.
Jesus says that the ruler had him bound and sent to the torturers into the dungeon, UNTIL the last penny is paid. The difference between “forever” and “UNTIL the last penny is paid”, is the difference between Christian Hell and Jewish Gehenna.
Jesus said that the Father would treat us in the same way if we are unforgiving.
So, to be clear: CHRISTIANS have created a doctrine of eternal hell.
But JEWS, like Jesus, have only Purgatorial Gehenna, where the flames are cleasing of the sin, like dross from metal in a fire. Only the blackest and worse are so terrible that their sins just are not cleansed within the time left.
Now, the Christian theology, in the revelation of John, includes a SECOND fiery place, the Lake of Fire.
At the end of the world, all are resurrected to the flesh, and each is judged, alive. Judgment is based on deeds/works. Jesus repeats that about 20 times in Revelation. Paul seems to disagree in Romans. Jesus trumps. Jesus judges, and those who are the murderers, sexually immoral, idolators, liars, cowards – he gives the list twice on the last page – they’re thrown into the Lake of Fire for the Second Death.
Revelation says that the condemned angels are in the flames on and on, but only that when men are cast there this is “the second death” – ambiguous. Maybe that’s it: those spirits – souls, actually, because spirit and body are bound – may burn up and be utterly destroyed. Or maybe it’s like Gehenna – again.
In no case does anything in Scripture happen “forever” or “eternally”. The word “forever” or “eternal” never appears in Scripture. Rather, in Hebrew, the words are “olam” and “olam va’ed”. Those words mean “to a distant time”. Literally, they mean “to the horizon and beyond”. As far as the eye can see and more. The concept is “to the unknown”. “Forever” is an assertion of the known period of time: an open set that never closes. But the Hebrew word “olam” says only ‘until we don’t know when, far away’. And that’s not eternity. It’s finite.
Likewise, in the Greek, the word by which olam is translated, and the New Testament concept, is “aion” – the eon. For the eon. An eon is a long, unspecified period of time. It is, once again, “until we don’t know”. “Eon of eons” implies a vastly longer time. But in no case does it mean forever. It’s not unbounded. It’s still bounded, somewhere far away.
That’s what Scripture actually SAYS.
So, in English, man is composed of a body, that falls to dust, and a spirit, which is breath from God. When breath and body are together, that’s a nephesh – a soul. The body falls to dust, the spirit goes to Paradise (Gan Eden) or Purgatory (Gehenna). The soul ceases to exist.
After the sins are cleansed, most in Gehenna proceed to Gan Eden.
At a certain point in the unknown future, Jesus returns with the end of the world as it is. At the denouement of that, the City of God, the New Jerusalem, comes down out of the sky (“Heaven”), to Jerusalem, the dead are all resurrected – spirits rejoined to bodies – and become new again, and each is judged according to his deeds. There is forgiveness for sin, for those who were forgiving, and of course those who have been purified, by the various means described in the Scripture (including Gehenna – where the last penny of debt was paid). Those who pass judgment proceed through the gates into the City, to live with God to a distant time.
Those who fail are thrown into the Lake of Fire, either to be destroyed for good, or to wait to a distant time.
Of the time after that distant time, Scripture is silent.
That’s what it actually SAYS. No Christians or Jews seem to be able to read it as written. All seem to have to add their own traditions to it.
And they’re as nasty in atheists in abusing whoever challenges their preferred belief.
So there’s no point in doing so. However, there’s also no point in trying to “get along” by not correcting people when they say “Scripture says” and then start using words like “Hell” and “eternity”. Those words do not exist in Greek or in Hebrew, and they never appear in Scripture. Neither does the word God. The words are “Powers” or “He will exist” in the Hebrew, and “Mighty” or “Power” in Greek. Elohiym and Theos mean the same thing, and they refer to POWER, not GOODNESS. “God” is the Anglo-Saxon word “Good”. It was applied to the Christian deity because he was the good one. If we want to translate the words “El” and “Theos” DIRECTLY into English, then we have to use the proper English word conveying the identical concept, and that word is “Ace”. We have not referred to the deity as an “Ace”, plural “Aesir” since Christianity came, and have referred to the Christian Aces as “Good” – God – ever since, because they were the GOOD ones.
Are you tired of me yet?
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Lots of great info, Crown. Thank you.
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Gary M: why do you believe that it’s wrong to kill people.
Who defines “wrong”, for you?
And who defines “people”?
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“Are you tired of me yet?”
No, but you’re revealing yourself to be just like other commenters on here who claim to know the ‘truth’ – it’s positively amazing how many ‘truths’ there are out there. As I’ve said already today, imagination is a wonderful thing! 🙂
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Josh,
Many would say that it’s heretical and wrong. And they would pick up their English translation of a Hebrew or a Greek text to “prove” it.
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I’m not interested in getting into a debate on the source or basis of morality, Crown. I posted a link on Nate’s most recent thread (My field trip) from John Loftus of Debunking Christianity who discusses why humans have a sense of morality without needing the assistance of divine ghosts to behave decently towards one another. If you would like me to post the link here, let me know.
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Crown’s question brings up an important issue:
I believe that many Christians hold onto their supernatural belief system because they fear that their lives would devolve into moral chaos if they were to abandon it. It’s not true, my Christian friends. You can live a perfectly moral, compassionate, kind existence without believing and being a slave to invisible gods and ghouls.
Here is the link I mentioned:
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2013/09/on-god-and-objective-moral-values-one.html
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Crown, that’s interesting information, but I’m not in complete agreement. I’m assuming that your info on the Jewish ideas of the afterlife come from Talmudic tradition, or something? I know the Old Testament doesn’t teach that concept. There, Sheol is the only word used about the afterlife, and it appears to the destination of all the dead, both good and bad.
Gehenna is used by Jesus, and it references the Valley of Hinnom, which was a trash heap outside Jerusalem and traditionally thought to be a place where child sacrifice was conducted deep in Israel’s past. Exactly what Jesus meant by it is up for debate.
The New Testament also uses the Greek terms Hades and Tartarus — the latter carrying an idea that fits more with the traditional notion of Hell.
As to how long souls are in either place, I think that’s also up for debate. I think claiming that “we don’t know how long” can’t include the idea of eternity is overstating things. I’m not saying that it must mean eternity, but I certainly wouldn’t be comfortable ruling it out.
Like Gary said, the bottom line is this: ask 100 Christians what the afterlife is comprised of and you’ll get 100 different answers (maybe more). No one has any clue, though many think they do. The passages on the subject could be read any number of different ways.
And the fact that the teachings on the subject change between the two testaments doesn’t help the notion of divine inspiration any.
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Crown, all I can say is there are so many things wrong in your lengthy comment above that I could write an entire blog posting correcting you. Instead, I’ll just focus on your references to “gehenna,”
The Jewish people did NOT believe that when people die, their spirits go to one of two places. They believed in one place: sheol, i.e., the grave, a dark unknown state, the abode of the dead.
Gehenna was NOT a “a dry place of heat” … where they were “cleansed of their sins” and did “penance” for them. It is a reference to the valley of Hinnom where, historically, King Ahab made molten images to the pagan god Moloch and then performed the abominable practice of burning his own sons for a sacrifice (2 Chronicles 28:3; Jeremiah 19:4-5). (King Manasseh is said to have done the same — 2 Chronicles 33:1, 6).
It’s obvious the Catholic doctrine of purgatory has influenced your POV since there is nothing in the OT that talks about a “purgatorial” hell, which you claim the Jews believed in. Further, according to many Jewish scholars, there is no definitive answer to what Gan Eden is or how it ultimately fits into the afterlife.
There is much that is attributed to “Jewish belief” when it is actually based on later rabbinic text/interpretation — not actual scripture. In much the same way, Christians have “reinterpreted” the bible to fit their own personal perspective.
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Hey Nate … just wanted to let you know I was apparently writing while you were posting. Didn’t mean to steal your thunder. 😉
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Not at all! I think it’s a good sign that we’re both aware of the same information.
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Nan – Jewish Gehenna, “Hell” is in fact Purgatorial. Note, please paragraph 2 below, from the Jewish Encyclopedia. Go argue with them.
From the Jewish Encyclopedia:
GEHENNA (Hebr. ; Greek, Γέεννα):
Judgment.
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B. M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man’s portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b). They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: “Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked” (‘Er. 19a).
There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; “after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat’s son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away” (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b). The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.). The Book of Enoch (xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12) paraphrases this thought by saying that the pious rejoice in the pains of hell suffered by the sinners. Abraham takes the damned to his bosom (‘Er. 19a; comp. Luke xvi. 19-31). The fire of Gehenna does not touch the Jewish sinners because they confess their sins before the gates of hell and return to God (‘Er. 19a). As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). “The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity” (Judith xvi. 17).
Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.)
The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).
Sin and Merit.
It is frequently said that certain sins will lead man into Gehenna. The name “Gehenna” itself is explained to mean that unchastity will lead to Gehenna (; ‘Er. 19a); so also will adultery, idolatry, pride, mockery, hypocrisy, anger, etc. (Soṭah 4b, 41b; Ta’an. 5a; B. B. 10b, 78b; ‘Ab. Zarah 18b; Ned. 22a). Hell awaits one who indulges in unseemly speech (Shab. 33a; Enoch, xxvii.); who always follows the advice of his wife (B. M. 59a); who instructs an unworthy pupil (Ḥul. 133b); who turns away from the Torah (B. B. 79a; comp. Yoma 72b). For further details see ‘Er. 18b, 101a; Sanh. 109b; Ḳid. 81a; Ned. 39b; B. M. 19a.
On the other hand, there are merits that preserve man from going to hell; e.g., philanthropy, fasting, visiting the sick, reading the Shema’ and Hallel, and eating the three meals on the Sabbath (Giṭ. 7a; B. B. 10a; B. M. 85a; Ned. 40a; Ber. 15b; Pes. 118a; Shab. 118a). Israelites in general are less endangered (Ber. 10a) than heretics, or, according to B. B. 10a, than the heathen. Scholars (Ḥag. 27a; comp. Men. 99b and Yoma 87a), the poor, and the pious (Yeb. 102b) are especially protected. Three classes of men do not see the face of hell: those that live in penury, those suffering with intestinal catarrh, and those that are pressed by their creditors (‘Er. 41b). It would seem that the expressions “doomed to hell” and “to be saved from hell” must be interpreted hyperbolically. A bad woman is compared to Gehenna in Yeb. 63b. On the names of Gehenna see ‘Er. 19a; B. B. 79a; Sanh. 111b; et al.
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Crown, this is almost exactly what Nan and I were saying. The Jewish Encyclopedia is talking about the belief systems under the Roman Empire and later. This is not taught in the Bible. There’s a clear difference between the OT teachings on the afterlife and the New. And it’s not too surprising since the Jewish people went through Persian and Greek rule before Jesus’ time, two cultures that did believe in a delineated afterlife. This is actually why Jesus talks about Gehenna as though everyone should know what it is, even though it isn’t talked about in the OT at all. And it’s one of the main reasons that there was a distinction between Pharisees and Sadducees.
This is problematic for Christians that put a lot of stock in the Bible. After all, if the later traditions about “Heaven” and “Hell” (I’ll just use those for simplicity’s sake) are accurate, why weren’t they talked about in the OT? Or why aren’t the texts that talk about them included in canon? Why is there any change in the teaching at all?
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Crown — from the same website:
Please note that many of the references at this website are from Rabbinic commentaries, not the scriptures. IOW, they are interpretations. Just like most Christian beliefs.
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Nan the reason for your error is that you have assumed, as Protestants all seem to, that the Old Testament is Judaism. It isn’t. It’s only part of Judaism.
When the Temple was up, the authority in Judaism reposed in the High Priest, the priesthood, and the Sanhedrin. The law is the written Torah AND the oral Torah – all of it together.
Protestants are “Scripture Alone” and thereby amputate their ability to understand Judaism because they pretend that Judaism is, likewise, Scripture Alone, but that was never true at any point during the existence of Jewish people.
Before the destruction of the Temple, the lawmaking authority reposed in High Priest and Sanhedrin, through judgment.
After, it reposed in the rabbinate. Judaism is based primarily on the traditions recorded in the Talmud, not the TaNaCh.
Judaism is like Catholicism: its priests had the authority to interpret, make law, reveal it, and that too be “the law”. It is Protestants, only, who LIMIT God and his religion to the BIble.
Of course, therefore, things like Gehenna and what Jews believe about it are not within the range of Protestant understanding: since 1519 AD Protestants have ordained that God’s law is to be limited to the Scripture, and that Jews are whatever Protestants read in their abridged Old Testament.
This is untrue. And it’s why a Protestant would think that purgatorial Gehenna is just a Catholic idea.
Nope.
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BTW, Nan, are you still a theistic Protestant, or an agnostic or atheist one?
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I refer to myself as a “non-believer” who leans towards scientific pantheism and secular humanism.
I left Christianity over 20 years ago and wrote a book (can be found on Nate’s “Books I’ve Read” page) that examines the history behind many of the more popular Christian doctrines. What I discovered in my research is that many beliefs are based on tradition (i.e., interpretations that were introduced into the faith many hundreds of years ago), rather than actual history (which, in most Christian churches, is either glossed over or not addressed at all).
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“Please note that many of the references at this website are from Rabbinic commentaries, not the scriptures. IOW, they are interpretations. Just like most Christian beliefs.”
Please note, Nan, that the ONLY PEOPLE who confine “True God” to the Scriptures are Protestants. Catholics never have. The Orthodox never have. The Jews never have.
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BTW, I think you have it backward. Judaism is not like Catholicism — Catholicism tries to be like Judaism, with a little Christianity thrown in for good measure.
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It baffles me how Christians can appeal to “objective morality” as a sign of the Christian god’s existence, but yet if you read their holy book, the Christian god is the most immoral, blood thirsty, vindictive, sadistic, genocidal mass murderer who ever existed!
What moral being would order little children to be ripped from their mothers’ arms and chopped to pieces, all because their parents offended the “chosen ones” by not allowing them to pass through their land…on their way to steal other peoples’ lands?
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The majority of the Christian holy book, the Bible, is not appropriate reading for young children. That should tell you something.
This ancient book of superstitions teaches one of the most barbaric and subjective forms of morality.
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