Agnosticism, Atheism, Bible Study, Christianity, Culture, Faith, God, Religion

Frustration

Nate

Sigh…

So here’s what’s been going on lately. Most of you who read this blog already know that when my wife and I left Christianity, it wrecked most of our family relationships. My wife’s parents and siblings, as well as my own, felt that they could no longer interact with us socially after our deconversion. We were no longer invited to any family functions, and our communication with them all but disappeared. We would speak if it was about religious issues, or if there were logistic issues that needed to be worked out in letting them see our kids, etc.

Over the years, things have gotten a little better, especially with my wife’s parents. Things are by no means back to normal, but at least our infrequent interactions have become more civil and more comfortable. A few weeks ago, I even had a phone conversation with my father that lasted about half an hour and had no references to religion whatsoever. It was nice.

Nevertheless, the awkwardness is still there, just under the surface. And we’re still blacklisted from all the family functions.

Throughout this time, I’ve occasionally reached out to my side of the family with phone calls, letters, facebook messages, etc, in an effort to discuss the issues that divide us. I don’t get much response. I’ve always been puzzled by that, since I know they think I’m completely wrong. If their position is right, why aren’t they willing to discuss it?

In the last five years, I’ve also been sent books and articles and even been asked to speak to certain individuals, and I’ve complied with every request. Why not? How could more information hurt? But when I’ve suggested certain books to them, or written letters, they aren’t read. When I finally realized that my problems with Christianity weren’t going to be resolved, I wrote a 57-page paper to my family and close friends, explaining why I could no longer call myself a Christian. As far as I know, none of them ever read the whole thing. And sure, 57 pages is quite a commitment. But they say this is the most important subject in their lives…

This past week, the topic has started to come back around. A local church kicked off a new series on Monday entitled “Can We Believe the Bible?” It’s being led by an evangelist/professor/apologist that was kind enough to take time to correspond with me for several weeks in the summer of 2010. I’ve never met him in person, but a mutual friend connected us, since he was someone who was knowledgeable about the kinds of questions I was asking. Obviously, we didn’t wind up on the same page.

can we trust the bible?

My wife’s parents invited us to attend the series, but it happens to be at a time that I’m coaching my oldest daughter’s soccer team. So unless we get rained out at some point, there’s no way we can attend. However, we did tell them that if practice is ever cancelled, we’ll go. I also contacted the church and asked if the sermons (if that’s the right word?) will be recorded, and they said that they should be.

Monday night, the weather was fine, so we weren’t able to attend. And so far, the recording isn’t available on their website. However, they do have a recording of Sunday night’s service available, which is entitled “Question & Answer Night.” I just finished listening to it, and that’s where the bulk of my frustration comes from.

It’s essentially a prep for the series that kicked off Monday night. They’re discussing why such a study is important, as well as the kinds of things they plan to cover. What’s so frustrating to me is that I don’t understand the mindset of evangelists like this. I mean, they’ve studied enough to know what the major objections to fundamentalist Christianity are, yet they continue on as if there’s no problem. And when they do talk about atheists and skeptics, they misrepresent our position. I can’t tell if they honestly believe the version they’re peddling, or if they’re purposefully creating straw men.

A couple of times, they mentioned that one of the main reasons people reject the Bible comes down to a preconception that miracles are impossible. “And if you start from that position, then you’ll naturally reject the Bible.” But that’s a load of crap. Most atheists were once theists, so their starting position was one that believed in miracles.

They also mentioned that so many of these secular articles and documentaries “only show one side.” I thought my head was going to explode.

And they referred to the common complaints against the Bible as “the same tired old arguments that have been answered long ago.” It’s just so infuriating. If the congregants had any knowledge of the details of these “tired old arguments,” I doubt they’d unanimously find the “answers” satisfactory. But the danger with a series like this is that it almost works like a vaccination. The members of the congregation are sitting in a safe environment, listening to trusted “experts,” and they’re injected with a watered down strain of an argument. And it’s that watered down version that’s eradicated by the preacher’s message. So whenever the individual encounters the real thing, they think it’s already been dealt with, and the main point of the argument is completely lost on them.

For example, most Christians would be bothered to find out that the texts of the Bible are not as reliable as were always led to believe. Even a beloved story like the woman caught in adultery, where Jesus writes on the ground, we’ve discovered that it was not originally part of the gospel of John. It’s a later addition from some unknown author. To a Christian who’s never heard that before, it’s unthinkable! But if they’ve gone through classes where they’ve been told that skeptics exaggerate the textual issues in the Bible, and that the few changes or uncertainties deal with only very minor things, and that none of the changes affect any doctrinal points about the gospel, then it’s suddenly easier for them to swallow “minor” issues like the insertion of an entire story into the gospel narrative.

Sigh…

I’m going to either attend these sessions, or I’ll watch/listen to them once they’re available online. I may need to keep some blood pressure medication handy, though.

Unknown's avatar

Published by Nate

1,060 thoughts on “Frustration”

  2. RE: Bernadette Soubirous

    First “Identification Of The Body” September 22, 1909

    “The fact that Bernadette’s body was perfectly preserved is not necessarily miraculous. It is well known that corpses decompose less in certain kinds of soil and gradually mummify. It should be noted, however, that in the case of Bernadette this mummified state is quite astounding. Her illnesses and the state of her body when she died, the humidity in the vault in the chapel of Saint Joseph (the habit was damp, the rosary rusty and the crucifix had turned green) would all seem to be conducive to disintegration of the flesh. We should be glad, therefore, that Bernadette benefited from a fairly rare biological phenomenon. But this is not a “miracle” in the strictest sense of the word.”

    The above from Drs. Ch. David, A. Jourdan
    Nevers, September 22, 1909
    “In witness of which we have duly drawn up this present statement in which all is truthfully recorded.“

    Liked by 1 person

  3. Warning, if you are eating your lunch – don’t scroll down =) You’ve been warned!

    Hi Crown,

    I took your advice and did several Google searches for the different saints you specifically mentioned with incorrupt bodies. I have to admit, I’m not an expert on dead bodies and quite frankly find it creepy that these bodies are on display in glass cases, but that aside…

    St. Francis Xavier, died in 1552.

    St. John Vianney, died in 1859. For some reason he has a wax mask:

    Bernadette Soubirous, died in 1879. She too has had a thin wax mask applied to her skin.

    St. Catherine Laboure, died in 1876.

    I guess I’m sort of underwhelmed so far. The body from 1552 looks pretty old and the ones from the 1800s are in better condition, but have a wax mask applied to their face. They are sealed in glass containers. I read somewhere that the official church stance on these bodies is that they are not classified as a miracle. Not sure if that’s correct or not.

    Anyway, I guess I’ll keep looking. Not sure if I’ll share this one with my wife as I did with the shroud. She is easily creeped out =)

    Like

  4. “The (Not Really So Very) Incorrupt Corpses
    Elizabeth Harper

    In the past, deterioration of incorrupt corpses could be attributed to exposing the body to bad air. According to a team of modern paleopathologists from the University of Pisa, that’s actually not too far from the truth. With the Vatican’s support, the team studied microenviornments in the former tombs of incorrupt corpses. They discovered that small differences in temperature, moisture, and construction techniques lead to some tombs producing naturally preserved bodies while others in the same church didn’t….Once the incorrupt bodies were removed from these climates or if the climates changed, they deteriorated. This may have been what happened to St. Francesca Romana who was deemed incorrupt four months after her death in 1440 only to be found fully skeletonized in 1698 (though you still hear people refer to her as incorrupt).

    http://www.orderofthegooddeath.com/really-whats-incorrupt-corpses#.VTZ2m2YxJTr

    Liked by 1 person

  6. Thanks, Peter. I have very much enjoyed the conversations I’ve had with folks on this blog. It is inspiring and thought-provoking for me to hear the many different perspectives here. I come at my beliefs from a very different angle than most of the non-believers on this site, and many of the believers who comment. Probably more like the intuition piece of decision-making that unkleE referenced. Sometimes it’s hard to find common discussion ground because of that, but I like to try. I enjoy the discussions, and respect the people I’ve talked to here. 🙂

    Like

  7. “furthermore, any god that would bring a dead lizard or rat back to life, yet allow children to be abused is a real dick!”

    This is probably the most profound statement I have seen yet on this thread.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Continuing on that point.

    Christians are taught to believe that the all-powerful Christian God allows evil in the world due to our sin and the sins of our ancestors Adam and Eve (forbidden fruit eating). When bad things happen to Christians, we are taught that it is for our good, even if we can’t see it. But how can any good come from the sexual abuse of a child??

    The Christian god sits on his throne in Heaven, and for tens/hundreds of thousands of years, has watched tens of thousands of little boys and girls be sexually abused and raped…and done nothing to stop it.

    The Christian god, if he exists, is a heartless monster. Christians would never allow their children to associate with someone who they know sat idly by and watched while a child was raped, yet Christians teach their children to pray and worship a Being who has sat idly by while tens of thousands of children are raped!

    Wake up people! Your belief system is barbaric and immoral.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. “furthermore, any god that would bring a dead lizard or rat back to life, yet allow children to be abused is a real dick!”

    Well, then God is a real dick. And he’s gonna kill you.

    Like

  10. Dave, let’s go into the undertaking business together. Instead of draining out their blood and fluids and then embalming the dead, we’ll just put a thin wax mask on their faces. Because that’s all it takes to prevent a body in the air from rotting: a glass case and a thin wax mask.

    We’ll save so much money on all of that messy embalming and body treatment, we’ll be rich!

    Like

  11. Dave – Let me go through the skeptical arguments for you:

    (1) The Shroud – the pollen, faceprint match, vanillin tests and strange features of the image itself are just hooey, the Carbon Dating (of a cloth covered in soot from a fire in the 1500s) is dispositive. So, it’s a medieval hoax.

    (2) The Lanciano Eucharistic Miracle: that old flesh was put in a glass container, and things put in glass containers don’t decay. (Try that with a piece of meat. Then try it with another. And another. Eventually a piece of meat put in a glass container won’t decay. Maybe.)

    (3) Incorrupt. Well, they rot, eventually. Luck. Wax masks.

    (4) Lourdes Miracles. Luck. Fraud.

    [(5) Crown’s claim of miracles. Luck. Delusion. Hysteria. Fraud.)]

    So, no miracles that pass muster. Therefore, no miracles. Therefore, no proof that God has a mind.

    Therefore, Natural Law is “God”, but God has no moral values.

    Therefore, do what I want and set my own terms of morality, because nothing makes any ULTIMATE difference, and life ends at death. Right and wrong are matters of opinion, and the only opinion that REALLY matters is mine. But I have to deal with other people, so I may have to dissimulate if I am going to do things that the community thinks are immoral and will enforce with punishment.

    Given that, spending any more time worrying about religion, or God, or any of this, is self-defeating and self-destructive. Why? Because this is all the time you will ever have, and wasting it trying to find a non-existent buddy in the sky is just that: throwing away time you will never get back.

    Given that the miracles are all dismissible, there are no demonstrable miracles. Therefore, there’s no proof of God other than of the Natural Law sort, and Natural Law is unthinking, impersonal and doesn’t CARE.

    Like

  12. “Well, then God is a real dick. And he’s gonna kill you.”

    And that, folks, is what conservative/orthodox Christianity always boils down to: a fear based belief system, otherwise known as—a cult.

    Christians can talk all day long about their loving Jesus, but in the end, if you commit the vicious, unforgivable thought crime of not believing in him as your Master, he will fry your ass in his torture pit.

    It’s a sick cult, folks. See it for what it is, and not the appealing façade they initially want to convert (enslave) you with.

    Liked by 2 people

  13. Crown: Start, then, by reading the article in the British Medical Journal “The Lancet”, published in 2001, of a long-term, controlled hospital study of Near-Death Experiences.

    I just finished reading this paper. If anyone else wants to read it without signing up on the Lancet website, there is a PDF online at:

    Click to access Lancet%20artikel%20Pim%20van%20Lommel.pdf

    Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest: a prospective study in the Netherlands
    Pim van Lommel, Ruud van Wees, Vincent Meyers, Ingrid Elfferich
    December 15, 2001

    As far as I can tell, the results of this extended research are non-conclusive. They found no reason for some patients to experience an NDE while others did not. 18% of the patients reported having a Near Death Experience.

    We do not know why so few cardiac patients report NDE after CPR, although age plays a part. With a purely physiological explanation such as cerebral anoxia for the experience, most patients who have been clinically dead should report one.

    There was an account from a nurse in the paper that, if it can be trusted, would be compelling evidence that our mind can become disconnected from our brain:

    During the pilot phase in one of the hospitals, a coronary-care-unit nurse reported a veridical out-of-body experience of a resuscitated patient: “During a night shift an ambulance brings in a 44-year-old cyanotic, comatose man into the coronary care unit. He had been found about an hour before in a meadow by passers-by. After admission, he receives artificial respiration without intubation, while heart massage and defibrillation are also applied. When we want to intubate the patient, he turns out to have dentures in his mouth. I remove these upper dentures and put them onto the crash car. Meanwhile, we continue extensive CPR. After about an hour and a half the patient has sufficient heart rhythm and blood pressure, but he is still ventilated and intubated, and he is still comatose. He is transferred to the intensive care unit to continue the necessary artificial respiration. Only
    after more than a week do I meet again with the patient, who is by now back on the cardiac ward. I distribute his medication. The moment he sees me he says: Oh, that nurse knows where my dentures are. I am very surprised. Then he elucidates: Yes, you were there when I was brought into hospital and you took my dentures out of my mouth and put them onto that car, it had all these bottles on it and there was this sliding drawer underneath and there you put my teeth. I was especially amazed because I remembered this happening while the man was in deep coma and in the process of CPR. When I asked further, it appeared the man had
    seen himself lying in bed, that he had perceived from above how nurses and doctors had been busy with CPR. He was also able to describe correctly and in detail the small room in which he had been resuscitated as well as the appearance of those present like myself. At the time that he observed the situation he had been very much afraid that we would stop CPR and that he would die. And it is true that we had been very negative about the patient’s prognosis due to his very poor medical condition when admitted. The patient tells me that he
    desperately and unsuccessfully tried to make it clear to us that he was still alive and that we should continue CPR. He is deeply impressed by his experience and says he is no longer afraid of death. 4 weeks later he left hospital as a healthy man.”

    If this story is true, I have no idea how it is possible. What kind of eyeballs are used to look down at the hospital room? This is not the first time I’ve seen this type of report.

    When it comes right down to it we skeptics are left with a conundrum – so many of these experiences are based on human testimony. How do we find a proper balance of trust without becoming overly naive?

    I’ll end with one more quote from the paper:

    Several theories have been proposed to explain NDE. We did not show that psychological, neurophysiological, or physiological factors caused these experiences after
    cardiac arrest. […] And yet, neurophysiological processes must play some part in NDE. Similar experiences can be induced through electrical stimulation of the temporal lobe (and hence of the hippocampus) during neurosurgery for epilepsy, with high carbon dioxide levels (hypercarbia), and in decreased cerebral perfusion resulting in local cerebral hypoxia as in rapid acceleration during training of fighter pilots, or as in hyperventilation followed by valsalva manoeuvre. Ketamine-induced experiences resulting from blockage of the NMDA receptor, and the role of endorphin, serotonin, and enkephalin have also been mentioned, as have near-death-like experiences after the use of LSD, psilocarpine, and mescaline. These induced experiences can consist of unconsciousness, out-of-body experiences, and perception of light or flashes of recollection from the past. These recollections, however, consist of fragmented and random memories unlike the panoramic life-review that can occur in NDE. Further, transformational processes with changing life-insight and disappearance of fear of death are rarely reported after induced experiences.

    So it seems that a form of NDE can be manufactured artificially, although the experiences are not completely identical.

    Like

  14. Dave, let’s go into the undertaking business together. Instead of draining out their blood and fluids and then embalming the dead, we’ll just put a thin wax mask on their faces. Because that’s all it takes to prevent a body in the air from rotting: a glass case and a thin wax mask. We’ll save so much money on all of that messy embalming and body treatment, we’ll be rich!

    The problem is that we cannot conclude anything from the photos of the bodies from the 1800s because they have been covered with a wax mask. The older body from the 1500s looks pretty bad.

    Like

  15. Dave –

    Oh yes, I forgot: (6) NDE’s: fraud, hoax, dreams, manufactured memories. Unprovable. Therefore, discardable.

    No miracles. Nothing but flat reality, leading to inevitable death, after which there is nothing.

    All time spent trying to understand this “God” is time spent on a fantasy. Spend it on productive activity (moneymaking) or on the pursuit of pleasure. Because that is all anyone has, and as the body ages, the abilities to do anything are steadily diminished until there is nothing.

    Life is purposeless. So do what you enjoy, now, and forget about consequences, other than economic or shorter term. There are no long-term consequences of anything, because there is no life after death, there is no objective right and wrong, there is nothing but opinion, perception and nerve endings.

    If you are terminally ill, and you really hate somebody, there is no reason not to kill him.

    If you are very poor and starving, there is no reason not to take what you want. The worst that will happen is that you will be imprisoned, where they will feed you, house you, clothe you, and give you medical care.

    Anybody who ever “died for his country” is a fool, because no “country” exists other than as a figment of the imagination, so those who die for a country die for nothing.

    It’s harsh, it’s cruel, but it’s reality.

    Do what you want, just take care for disease, pregnancy, legal liability, and to hide what you are doing from the superstitious who believe that there is “something more”, when there is not.

    No miracles, no God. No God, no objective morality. Just human power in a Darwinian world. The time you spend dwelling on these matters is time that you’re NOT seeking to improve your financial status, which is what gives you power and potential mates.

    And that is where the only pleasure that really counts is: power and mating.

    The pleasure that comes from cartoons, religion and other make-belief is opiate for the masses of failed people. If you’re tracking towards failure, you may waste time on such things, but if you want success, discipline yourself to stop spending time on nonsense like “The higher philosophical questions” – in a universe without God, there ARE no “higher philosophical questions”, there’s just wasting time that could otherwise be productive on bullshit sessions. Studying religion and pondering philosophical fantasies is like being an adult who has a really elaborate train set, or who wins the 56th level of Super Mario Galaxy: the activities of the Betas, who do not rule.

    And it is well that the Betas should have religion, for religion does serve a purpose, just not for intelligent Alphas.

    “Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.” – Napoleon Bonaparte

    We can talk about miracles, which are my reality.
    Or we can talk about a world without any God, which is the reality of others.

    Two realities. One is wrong. I know which. You’re trying to figure it out. I’ve given you miracles to help you see the truth. I’ve also given you strong arguments to discard all of the miracles I’ve presented as bullshit, delusion and fraud. If you do so, you’re left in a world where all religions are fairy tales, and where studying them is a self-defeating activity, like playing video games while your time wastes away in the wind.

    Like

  16. The Shroud – the pollen, faceprint match, vanillin tests and strange features of the image itself are just hooey, the Carbon Dating (of a cloth covered in soot from a fire in the 1500s) is dispositive. So, it’s a medieval hoax.

    There is no need to create a cartoon of these skeptical arguments. I don’t automatically trust a skeptical argument just because it’s from a skeptic. There is a lot of information to cover and we can’t always trust personal testimony from either side of the debate. The vanillin tests are not backed up and the results can vary greatly anyway depending on the temperature that the linen has been kept in. The pieces of cloth that were tested were done at 3 separate labs and each lab performed several separate cleaning methods on each sample so I don’t think soot from a fire in the 1500s can be blamed for contaminating the results. The pollen could be legitimate, but it’s difficult to be certain and it would not outweigh the dating results. As for the faceprint match, I have yet to find a source that clearly shows this, but I’ll keep looking.

    Like

  17. Crown wrote: Or we can talk about a world without any God, which is the reality of others.

    That’s definitely a topic that appeals to me. But please … I’m just making a statement. I’m not trying to provoke any more discussions. I’m pretty much done (at least for now) since I keep running into the same old justifications and vindications, most of which are founded upon faith and not fact.

    Liked by 1 person

  18. Crown,

    I’d also like to thank you for your contributions to this thread. It’s been an eye-opener for many readers, I’m sure.

    You see, it’s good to know what goes on in the mind of a zealot – you are proof positive that intelligent people can be duped into thinking that the ludicrous can be rationalized away, that ghosts (especially holy ones!) are real, that it’s true that a virgin DID give birth to a baby (for REALZEES!) and the mean old devil (he’s real too, boys and girls!) is just lurking around trying to tempt people into doing something that will get them sent to the fiery pit. . . wherever that is.

    For anyone wondering how an ordinary person can become convinced that they have all the answers, and then cloak themselves in self-righteous moral superiority, now you see the thought processes that occur.

    First, you imagine the extraordinary, then you convince yourself that you are SO extra-special that you are one of the chosen few who gets to experience these things, and finally you try to convince others of your enlightenment.

    THAT’S the tricky part, isn’t it Crown?

    Liked by 3 people

  19. No miracles. Nothing but flat reality, leading to inevitable death, after which there is nothing. All time spent trying to understand this “God” is time spent on a fantasy. Spend it on productive activity (moneymaking) or on the pursuit of pleasure. Because that is all anyone has, and as the body ages, the abilities to do anything are steadily diminished until there is nothing. Life is purposeless. So do what you enjoy, now, and forget about consequences, other than economic or shorter term. There are no long-term consequences of anything, because there is no life after death, there is no objective right and wrong, there is nothing but opinion, perception and nerve endings.

    Crown, I can relate to your entire comment. I’ve often wondered if life is just like the author of Ecclesiastes felt “Vanity, vanity, all is vanity.” Like chasing after the wind. But think of this from a strictly logical perspective: “Does something having no purpose automatically make it not true?” I don’t think so. I can’t disregard a theory just because I don’t like it, wouldn’t you agree?

    Now, you have the higher ground because you’ve witnessed miracles and I have not. Pretend for a moment that the reverse were true. Pretend that I was claiming that we were created by Aliens from another planet. What’s more, I had experiences with these Aliens that proved to me that they had created us. Wouldn’t you feel rather left out? Wouldn’t you be skeptical of my story?

    Liked by 2 people

  20. Dave – “Now, you have the higher ground because you’ve witnessed miracles and I have not. Pretend for a moment that the reverse were true.”

    Dave, You’re still searching because God isn’t letting go of you.

    For my part, it’s the old adage: you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.

    Like

  21. Carmen,

    I have been particularly blessed, yes. You have not, and that isn’t my fault.

    I came to a place where people discuss proof of God. I provided some that those who wish can look at.

    It is no skin off my nose whether you listen or hiss.

    Two boats and a helicopter.

    Like

  22. I too have found Crown’s comments very interesting. He is obviously a very intelligent man. However, his predilection to attribute everyday events to supernatural forces is an eye-opener for anyone who believes that only uneducated, backwards, third-world people live their lives governed by the whims of good and evil spirits; fearful of storms they perceive as the temper tantrums of an angry God; and droughts as punishment for unfaithfulness to an invisible deity.

    We can’t prove Crown’s worldview wrong, but thankfully he can’t prove (to us) that it is true.

    How much better a worldview based on reason and science than a world of supernatural superstitions.

    Liked by 2 people

  23. Just finished reading an excellent summary of Richard Carrier’s two part magnus opus, Proving History and On the Historicity of Jesus>/i> at Steve Ruis’ blog: https://stephenpruis.wordpress.com/2015/04/20/put-a-fork-in-it/

    Some excerpts from his posting:

    In the first book Dr. Carrier addresses the flawed tools used by most biblical scholars when analyzing scriptural texts. And since he is trying to make an air tight case, he is very (very) thorough.

    Re: On the Historicity of Jesus, Steve writes:

    [This] is an historical study, approached with the tools of an historian. The goal is to determine the probability that Jesus was a real person, that is an historical person. An historian approaches things differently than theologians do, which is partly why the situation we have is so confused. Theologians, for example, choose to believe in miracles. Historians do not believe in miracles, for the simple reason than no miracle has ever stood up to rational scrutiny (and this test has been failed many, many times).

    Dr. Carrier leaves no stone unturned. Approximately 40% of the text of OTHOJ is in the form of scholarly notes

    I think it would be well for both believers and non-believers to take the time to read what Dr. Carrier has to say in these books. I know I’m planning on it.

    Liked by 1 person

  24. Dave: “I can’t disregard a theory just because I don’t like it, wouldn’t you agree? ”

    No, I don’t agree. Life is short, and the world is full of a cacophony of claims and demands on my time. I don’t have time to evaluate every opinion that everybody has, and I don’t have any interest in doing so either.

    Like

  25. Gary – “We can’t prove Crown’s worldview wrong, but thankfully he can’t prove (to us) that it is true.”

    Perhaps we should leave it at that. For now. The world itself will eventually show you the truth.

    Like

Comments are closed.