How about walking on water and floating up into the air, Josh? Know anybody else who did that?
Arch-
On the first, walking on water: Peter.
On “floating up into the air”: both Enoch and Elijah are recorded to have been “taken” by God without having died.
He’s one of Brandon’s favourites, too. Honestly, its the same three names thrown out with every single apologist. Over and over, the same three. Are these people so detached from reality that they can’t see how utterly foolish they look?
Yep, but that gets him into even more trouble with Kingdoms not existing, places not existing, Exodus stations not existing, and Canaan thoroughly under Egyptian military rule.
Thomas Romer (perhaps the world’s leading OT authority) is an excellent source to look to, and has a lot to say on Edom and how it fits into the biblical “family” narrative.
Just a pity for the evangelicals that it was never “Edom” until 800 BCE.
UnkleE doesn’t have a case. Presenting the same three evangelical Christians, who every evangelical presents, does not make a case that there is a genuine and “real” debate. There isn’t.
Not sure how much you actually know about biblical archaeology, but the only area where there is still a live debate (with active digs going on seeking to answer questions) is whether or not Judah had an urban (infrastructure rich) society in the 9th Century BCE, which pertains to the United Kingdom. The general view, especially among most Israeli archaeologists, is that there wasn’t a United Kingdom. There are those, though, who can still point to some finds which might support the narrative, albeit in a much, much smaller scale.
Reading the origin narrative (Patriarchs, Egypt, Moses, Exodus, Conquest), its a dead subject. Has been for nearly two generations. The Encyclopaedia Judaica (a famed publication which examines all scholastic, theological and scientific work) openly concludes that the entire Exodus narrative was “dramatically woven out of various strands of tradition… he [Moses] wasn’t a historical character.”
This is the view help by all but Orthodox Jewish rabbis. Even Orthodox rabbis though are now coming to accept the truth, which is a sign of the strength of the argument. In 2012 Orthodox Rabbi Norman Solomon published his book, Torah from Heaven: The Reconstruction of Faith, in which he presented the case that the concept of Torah Mi Sinai (the claim that the Five Books of Moses were dictated by the god Yahweh to Moses on Sinai) was not rooted in reality but was rather a “foundation myth;” an origin dream, not a descriptive historical fact.
As Rabbi Sherwin Wine said: “The Jews did not begin with Abraham. The Jews did not emerge as a nation under the leadership of Moses. They were never rescued from slavery in Egypt. They never stopped at Sinai.”
Or as Conservative Rabbi Steven Leder said: “Defending a rabbi in the 21st century for saying the Exodus story isn’t factual is like defending him for saying the Earth isn’t flat.”
So overwhelming is the evidence that in 1998, the American Schools of Oriental Research (ASOR), the primary American professional body for archaeologists working in the Middle East, changed the name of its magazine from Biblical Archaeologist to Near Eastern Archaeology simply because the bible had been determined to be (beyond all doubt) an entirely unreliable historical source to direct research into the early Jews, pre-Babylonian captivity.
This is the fourth time you have evaded addressing my question.
Why?
I would truly and genuinely like to know what you are basing your beliefs on.
Surely you are basing your beliefs on something, and I’d like to understand.
So, UnkleE, for the fifth time:
Please detail exactly what evidences you are aware of that lends credence to your belief in the historical validity of the Jewish origin narrative.
Could you please name the peer-reviewed papers and journals these recognised papers were published in so I can review them myself.
I would be tremendously interested in reading these works, as I am not aware of any contradictory data, and I know this subject rather well. I subscribe to three archaeology journals, and am a little puzzled by your position.
I have interviewed many Israeli archaeologists (and rabbis), and none seem to hold the same view you do, so I would like to know where you’re coming from. In fact, I’m still in regular contact with the brilliant young Israeli archaeologist, Dr. Erez Ben-Yosef, who’s paper “A New Chronological Framework for Iron Age Copper Production at Timna (Israel)” was recently heralded as the most influential paper published in BASOR (Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research). Ben-Yosef also co-authored a startling paper last year, titled, “The Introduction of Domestic Camels to the Southern Levant: Evidence from the Aravah Valley,” which I’d recommend.
Now, UnkleE, I keep giving you snippets of the wealth of evidence that contradicts the narrative, but you have given me nothing.
Nothing at all.
Zero.
Why?
Could you please address these questions now, or do we have to move onto a sixth attempt?
@John Z
If these people are christians, and evangelical to boot – like Kitchen – then surely it must be as plain as the nose on your face that there is going to be a fairly large dollop of presupposition served up before they even pick up a trowel, open an ancient scroll or examine a single hieroglyphic?
How is it possible to be truly and honestly objective under these circumstances especially when not a single piece of evidence has been unearthed to further the biblical claims of the Exodus etc?
Seriously, I really don’t get it.
And don’t they even take notice of Herzog and Finkelstein and the like?
Are these evangelical/christian archaeologists etc working in a vacuum?
“We are talking about scholars, and that includes historians.” – I certainly consider Steven Hawking a “scholar,” but I wouldn’t take his opinion regarding the Exodus, even if it coincided with my own.
Josh, “Enoch walked with god, and was not.” – nothing is said about floating up in the air. Were there eyewitnesses to Enoch’s teleportation? Elijah’s? Peter stumbling on water? If so, who were they?
Jimmy Hoffa walked with god and was not – god made him an offer he couldn’t refuse. Prove me wrong.
“Just a pity for the evangelicals that it was never “Edom” until 800 BCE.” – This is the problem with so many of the stories of the Torah, John, and where they shoot their own credibility in the foot: the authors knew little of their own history. They decided that if something was in place at the time they wrote, that it likely had always been (or believed that their audience wouldn’t know the difference), which is why they felt that they could say that Abe came from “Ur of the Chaldees,” when the Chaldeans didn’t occupy the area around Ur until the 700’s BCE; why they placed camels in the 2nd millennium that wouldn’t be domesticated until 1000 BCE, the Philistines on the coast of the Levant in Abe’s time, who wouldn’t arrive there until 1200-1150 BCE, and many other anachronisms. So many theists will dispute the Documentary Hypothesis, and can’t see that even more so than the many, many (I’m afraid to say overwhelming majority) scholars, the anachronisms of the authors themselves prove their stories were written at a later time.
Ever find it odd that Moses never mentions the Sea Peoples? Yet they would have been in control of Northern Egypt at the time he took his people for a stroll —
you’re correct, the same book that claims jesus walked on water and flew up into heaven also claims a few others did the same.
I think the point though, is that only one source (or collection of books that were based off of each other) says that these individuals did this or that by god.
could a perfect and all powerful being work a miracle or help someone do something incredible? sure. but the question many of us have is why should we believe those claims.
There are several clues in the bible, but there are a few that would have been noteworthy to other observers in the world that weren’t jews, events that would have been so out of the norm that non-believers (or other believers of a different sort) would have at least written down, whether or not they attributed it to the hebrew god.
1. Tower of babel
2. Sun standing still for Joshua
3. Sun moving backward for hezekiah
4. Dead bodies raising from their graves at jesus death
I would think the 10 plagues in Egypt as well as the Red Sea crossing (or even a Reed Sea crossing) would also have been recorded by others. Perhaps it’s correct the Egyptians found the events too embarrassing to record, but major world centers, such as Egypt at that time, have lots of people passing through or travelling in and out of for various reasons. So Egyptians and hebrews werent the only people in Egypt at the time, and certainly others, who werent that embarrassed for the egyptians as much as they were in awe over these events, would have recorded them somewhere… but we can leave these events off the list for now if you like.
And also consider that this is certainly not the only issue with the bible, but is only one small sample of the issues.
But why werent these events recorded by anyone else? There were several folks at those times who were impressive observers of astronomy, and who were renown for being much more literate and advanced than the hebrews, who recorded all sorts of things… but didnt think the above events warranted mention?
While this isnt proof, and doesnt mean those events absolutely didnt happen, it should give any educated person pause in believing they DID happen on a mere claim, in an old book, that was written in times when people were religiously superstitious and at a time where such claims regarding other god’s and heroes did similar things…
I think you undertsand the point being made about moracles, though. who walked on water besides jesus? peter, of course… I mean, he was mentioned in the same text as jesus doing so – so we understand that a claim of peter walking on water doesnt prove the claim that jesus walked on water. the point is, does anyone walk on water? the answer is no. So the point implies that since no one does this, some pretty good evidence should be presented to validate those outlandish claims.
did you see it happen? no. Did god himself even tell you it happened? no. so how do you know? well, an old book, written by ancient men, whom I dont know at all, said that jesus was the son of god and a virgin woman, and that he walked on water and let peter walk on water… And other guys claimed that the writer was told to write that by god.
to me, it just doesnt sound that impressive or believable. maybe if we just pretend the middle men werent there at all and simply say, “god said…” it seems more credible. Except it’s just not true. to be 100% upfront and honest about it, you’d have to say that “so and so said that god said…”
so why have so much faith in these men’s claims? events like the above werent noticed by anyone else (among all the other issues). why believe that god really told them all this stuff as they claimed he did?
“If these people are christians, and evangelical to boot – like Kitchen – then surely it must be as plain as the nose on your face that there is going to be a fairly large dollop of presupposition served up before they even pick up a trowel, open an ancient scroll or examine a single hieroglyphic?” – Ark
I suppose that UnkleE or other believers would counter by saying “perhaps they’re only believers because of the evidence their scholarly work unveiled.”
I would wager that these christian scholars were christians before they were scholars though, which to me, would lend credit to your position that they are letting their religious beliefs guide their scholarly work.
if, however, they were atheist or non-religious before they were scholars, and through their research and study found such compelling evidence that they couldnt help but convert, then perhaps, if nothing else, it may indicate that there is no or very little presupposing.
but still, like Gary has said, any natural explanation is already more likely than a supernatural explanation… so any scholarly work that concludes jesus was a real man takes a huge leap to then conclude he was born of a virgin, the son of god and father to himself, raising from the dead, flying into heaven and planning a return trip to burn the earth and send people to heaven and hell… presupposition or not, that’s crazy.
Actually Arch, Moses is warned by YHWH not to travel up the coast for fear of warring with the Philistines. The problem is, the Philistines wouldn’t be on the coast for another 300 years. This is one of great historical blunders.
Exodus 13:17: When Pharaoh let the people go, God did not lead them on the road through the Philistine country, though that was shorter. For God said, “If they face war, they might change their minds and return to Egypt.”
for a moment imagine ancient people, who know practically nothing of science or outer space, or the solar system, or the water cycle, or really much about anything, but want to try and explain the things they see in the world they find themselves in – then read genesis 1.
then, after you’ve honestly done this exercise, let me know whether gen 1 still looks like a message from god.
it’s not a blunder when you simply claim “prophecy.”
It’s fun, like a kid’s game. making things up as you go… sadly, adults usually spot the silliness in children’s games… usually that is, unless you associate it with god.
I suppose that UnkleE or other believers would counter by saying “perhaps they’re only believers because of the evidence their scholarly work unveiled.”
This is fairly easily tested. We know for a fact William Albright was a Christian before and he set out with the explicit aim of proving the bible – in this respect he failed.
…n their greatest excesses, to “prove” the bible.”.[14] In this Albright’s American Evangelical upbringing was clearly apparent. He insisted, for example, that “as a whole, the picture in Genesis is historical, and there is no reason to doubt the general accuracy of the biographical details” (i.e., of figures such as Abraham). Similarly he claimed that archaeology had proved the essential historicity of the Book of Exodus, and the conquest of Canaan as described in the Book of Joshua and the Book of Judges.
In the years since his death, Albright’s methods and conclusions have been increasingly questioned. William Dever claims that “[Albright’s] central theses have all been overturned, partly by further advances in Biblical criticism, but mostly by the continuing archaeological research of younger Americans and Israelis to whom he himself gave encouragement and momentum … The irony is that, in the long run, it will have been the newer “secular” archaeology that contributed the most to Biblical studies, not “Biblical archaeology.”[15]
Biblical scholar Thomas L. Thompson contends that the methods of “biblical archaeology” have also become outmoded: “[Wright and Albright’s] historical interpretation can make no claim to be objective, proceeding as it does from a methodology which distorts its data by selectivity which is hardly representative, which ignores the enormous lack of data for the history of the early second millennium, and which wilfully establishes hypotheses on the basis of unexamined biblical texts, to be proven by such (for this period) meaningless mathematical criteria as the ‘balance of probability’ …”[16]
Pretty much tells you all you need to know about biblical archaeology I reckon.
Hoerth has written where controversy arises he puts the bible above archaeological evidence, so by this he looks a likely candidate as being a Christian first archaeologist second.
But this I venture, unklee will claim is irrelevant as his main beef is the use of the term overwhelming.
where it pertains to the scientific and scholarly view of the Pentateuch.
If an archaeologist is prepared to go on record stating no serious scholar in the world I would say this is pretty overwhelming, wouldn’t you?
But then maybe an archaeologist such as Broshi has a different view of what a serious scholar is and perhaps he regards people like Kitchen, Woods Hoerth etc with little respect? I do not know.
Finding Truth 
Arch-
On the first, walking on water: Peter.
On “floating up into the air”: both Enoch and Elijah are recorded to have been “taken” by God without having died.
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Ark asks There was another topic you wanted to raise I believe? -> yes, what your position is on sons of virgins and making wine outta of water
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Josh, did Peter really manage to walk on water or he gave it up at the very beginning
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He’s one of Brandon’s favourites, too. Honestly, its the same three names thrown out with every single apologist. Over and over, the same three. Are these people so detached from reality that they can’t see how utterly foolish they look?
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Yep, but that gets him into even more trouble with Kingdoms not existing, places not existing, Exodus stations not existing, and Canaan thoroughly under Egyptian military rule.
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Thomas Romer (perhaps the world’s leading OT authority) is an excellent source to look to, and has a lot to say on Edom and how it fits into the biblical “family” narrative.
Just a pity for the evangelicals that it was never “Edom” until 800 BCE.
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I raised the topic on another thread and Kitchen’s name was the first iron in the fire.
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Gary
UnkleE doesn’t have a case. Presenting the same three evangelical Christians, who every evangelical presents, does not make a case that there is a genuine and “real” debate. There isn’t.
Not sure how much you actually know about biblical archaeology, but the only area where there is still a live debate (with active digs going on seeking to answer questions) is whether or not Judah had an urban (infrastructure rich) society in the 9th Century BCE, which pertains to the United Kingdom. The general view, especially among most Israeli archaeologists, is that there wasn’t a United Kingdom. There are those, though, who can still point to some finds which might support the narrative, albeit in a much, much smaller scale.
Reading the origin narrative (Patriarchs, Egypt, Moses, Exodus, Conquest), its a dead subject. Has been for nearly two generations. The Encyclopaedia Judaica (a famed publication which examines all scholastic, theological and scientific work) openly concludes that the entire Exodus narrative was “dramatically woven out of various strands of tradition… he [Moses] wasn’t a historical character.”
This is the view help by all but Orthodox Jewish rabbis. Even Orthodox rabbis though are now coming to accept the truth, which is a sign of the strength of the argument. In 2012 Orthodox Rabbi Norman Solomon published his book, Torah from Heaven: The Reconstruction of Faith, in which he presented the case that the concept of Torah Mi Sinai (the claim that the Five Books of Moses were dictated by the god Yahweh to Moses on Sinai) was not rooted in reality but was rather a “foundation myth;” an origin dream, not a descriptive historical fact.
As Rabbi Sherwin Wine said: “The Jews did not begin with Abraham. The Jews did not emerge as a nation under the leadership of Moses. They were never rescued from slavery in Egypt. They never stopped at Sinai.”
Or as Conservative Rabbi Steven Leder said: “Defending a rabbi in the 21st century for saying the Exodus story isn’t factual is like defending him for saying the Earth isn’t flat.”
So overwhelming is the evidence that in 1998, the American Schools of Oriental Research (ASOR), the primary American professional body for archaeologists working in the Middle East, changed the name of its magazine from Biblical Archaeologist to Near Eastern Archaeology simply because the bible had been determined to be (beyond all doubt) an entirely unreliable historical source to direct research into the early Jews, pre-Babylonian captivity.
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UnkleE
This is the fourth time you have evaded addressing my question.
Why?
I would truly and genuinely like to know what you are basing your beliefs on.
Surely you are basing your beliefs on something, and I’d like to understand.
So, UnkleE, for the fifth time:
Please detail exactly what evidences you are aware of that lends credence to your belief in the historical validity of the Jewish origin narrative.
Could you please name the peer-reviewed papers and journals these recognised papers were published in so I can review them myself.
I would be tremendously interested in reading these works, as I am not aware of any contradictory data, and I know this subject rather well. I subscribe to three archaeology journals, and am a little puzzled by your position.
I have interviewed many Israeli archaeologists (and rabbis), and none seem to hold the same view you do, so I would like to know where you’re coming from. In fact, I’m still in regular contact with the brilliant young Israeli archaeologist, Dr. Erez Ben-Yosef, who’s paper “A New Chronological Framework for Iron Age Copper Production at Timna (Israel)” was recently heralded as the most influential paper published in BASOR (Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research). Ben-Yosef also co-authored a startling paper last year, titled, “The Introduction of Domestic Camels to the Southern Levant: Evidence from the Aravah Valley,” which I’d recommend.
Now, UnkleE, I keep giving you snippets of the wealth of evidence that contradicts the narrative, but you have given me nothing.
Nothing at all.
Zero.
Why?
Could you please address these questions now, or do we have to move onto a sixth attempt?
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It’s like a broken record. Literally. It’s so desperately boring, but again and again, out trot the same three names.
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@John Z
If these people are christians, and evangelical to boot – like Kitchen – then surely it must be as plain as the nose on your face that there is going to be a fairly large dollop of presupposition served up before they even pick up a trowel, open an ancient scroll or examine a single hieroglyphic?
How is it possible to be truly and honestly objective under these circumstances especially when not a single piece of evidence has been unearthed to further the biblical claims of the Exodus etc?
Seriously, I really don’t get it.
And don’t they even take notice of Herzog and Finkelstein and the like?
Are these evangelical/christian archaeologists etc working in a vacuum?
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“We are talking about scholars, and that includes historians.” – I certainly consider Steven Hawking a “scholar,” but I wouldn’t take his opinion regarding the Exodus, even if it coincided with my own.
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Josh, “Enoch walked with god, and was not.” – nothing is said about floating up in the air. Were there eyewitnesses to Enoch’s teleportation? Elijah’s? Peter stumbling on water? If so, who were they?
Jimmy Hoffa walked with god and was not – god made him an offer he couldn’t refuse. Prove me wrong.
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From what I’ve read, John, the average Egyptian garrison in the Levant consisted of 50 men.
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“Just a pity for the evangelicals that it was never “Edom” until 800 BCE.” – This is the problem with so many of the stories of the Torah, John, and where they shoot their own credibility in the foot: the authors knew little of their own history. They decided that if something was in place at the time they wrote, that it likely had always been (or believed that their audience wouldn’t know the difference), which is why they felt that they could say that Abe came from “Ur of the Chaldees,” when the Chaldeans didn’t occupy the area around Ur until the 700’s BCE; why they placed camels in the 2nd millennium that wouldn’t be domesticated until 1000 BCE, the Philistines on the coast of the Levant in Abe’s time, who wouldn’t arrive there until 1200-1150 BCE, and many other anachronisms. So many theists will dispute the Documentary Hypothesis, and can’t see that even more so than the many, many (I’m afraid to say overwhelming majority) scholars, the anachronisms of the authors themselves prove their stories were written at a later time.
Ever find it odd that Moses never mentions the Sea Peoples? Yet they would have been in control of Northern Egypt at the time he took his people for a stroll —
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“Dr. Erez Ben-Yosef” – Any relation to Yeshua Ben-Yosef?
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Josh,
you’re correct, the same book that claims jesus walked on water and flew up into heaven also claims a few others did the same.
I think the point though, is that only one source (or collection of books that were based off of each other) says that these individuals did this or that by god.
could a perfect and all powerful being work a miracle or help someone do something incredible? sure. but the question many of us have is why should we believe those claims.
There are several clues in the bible, but there are a few that would have been noteworthy to other observers in the world that weren’t jews, events that would have been so out of the norm that non-believers (or other believers of a different sort) would have at least written down, whether or not they attributed it to the hebrew god.
1. Tower of babel
2. Sun standing still for Joshua
3. Sun moving backward for hezekiah
4. Dead bodies raising from their graves at jesus death
I would think the 10 plagues in Egypt as well as the Red Sea crossing (or even a Reed Sea crossing) would also have been recorded by others. Perhaps it’s correct the Egyptians found the events too embarrassing to record, but major world centers, such as Egypt at that time, have lots of people passing through or travelling in and out of for various reasons. So Egyptians and hebrews werent the only people in Egypt at the time, and certainly others, who werent that embarrassed for the egyptians as much as they were in awe over these events, would have recorded them somewhere… but we can leave these events off the list for now if you like.
And also consider that this is certainly not the only issue with the bible, but is only one small sample of the issues.
But why werent these events recorded by anyone else? There were several folks at those times who were impressive observers of astronomy, and who were renown for being much more literate and advanced than the hebrews, who recorded all sorts of things… but didnt think the above events warranted mention?
While this isnt proof, and doesnt mean those events absolutely didnt happen, it should give any educated person pause in believing they DID happen on a mere claim, in an old book, that was written in times when people were religiously superstitious and at a time where such claims regarding other god’s and heroes did similar things…
I think you undertsand the point being made about moracles, though. who walked on water besides jesus? peter, of course… I mean, he was mentioned in the same text as jesus doing so – so we understand that a claim of peter walking on water doesnt prove the claim that jesus walked on water. the point is, does anyone walk on water? the answer is no. So the point implies that since no one does this, some pretty good evidence should be presented to validate those outlandish claims.
did you see it happen? no. Did god himself even tell you it happened? no. so how do you know? well, an old book, written by ancient men, whom I dont know at all, said that jesus was the son of god and a virgin woman, and that he walked on water and let peter walk on water… And other guys claimed that the writer was told to write that by god.
to me, it just doesnt sound that impressive or believable. maybe if we just pretend the middle men werent there at all and simply say, “god said…” it seems more credible. Except it’s just not true. to be 100% upfront and honest about it, you’d have to say that “so and so said that god said…”
so why have so much faith in these men’s claims? events like the above werent noticed by anyone else (among all the other issues). why believe that god really told them all this stuff as they claimed he did?
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“If these people are christians, and evangelical to boot – like Kitchen – then surely it must be as plain as the nose on your face that there is going to be a fairly large dollop of presupposition served up before they even pick up a trowel, open an ancient scroll or examine a single hieroglyphic?” – Ark
I suppose that UnkleE or other believers would counter by saying “perhaps they’re only believers because of the evidence their scholarly work unveiled.”
I would wager that these christian scholars were christians before they were scholars though, which to me, would lend credit to your position that they are letting their religious beliefs guide their scholarly work.
if, however, they were atheist or non-religious before they were scholars, and through their research and study found such compelling evidence that they couldnt help but convert, then perhaps, if nothing else, it may indicate that there is no or very little presupposing.
but still, like Gary has said, any natural explanation is already more likely than a supernatural explanation… so any scholarly work that concludes jesus was a real man takes a huge leap to then conclude he was born of a virgin, the son of god and father to himself, raising from the dead, flying into heaven and planning a return trip to burn the earth and send people to heaven and hell… presupposition or not, that’s crazy.
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Indeed, the chieftain of Meggido, Biridiya, asks for 50 soldiers from king Amenhotep IV in the Amarna letters.
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Actually Arch, Moses is warned by YHWH not to travel up the coast for fear of warring with the Philistines. The problem is, the Philistines wouldn’t be on the coast for another 300 years. This is one of great historical blunders.
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Arch
Exodus 13:17: When Pharaoh let the people go, God did not lead them on the road through the Philistine country, though that was shorter. For God said, “If they face war, they might change their minds and return to Egypt.”
Oooops!
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and josh,
for a moment imagine ancient people, who know practically nothing of science or outer space, or the solar system, or the water cycle, or really much about anything, but want to try and explain the things they see in the world they find themselves in – then read genesis 1.
then, after you’ve honestly done this exercise, let me know whether gen 1 still looks like a message from god.
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john,
it’s not a blunder when you simply claim “prophecy.”
It’s fun, like a kid’s game. making things up as you go… sadly, adults usually spot the silliness in children’s games… usually that is, unless you associate it with god.
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Not trying to prove anything, Arch. I was just responding to your question about Jesus’ walking on water and “floating into the air”. 🙂
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@William