Nate: Please weigh in on this issue. Maybe you can persuade him to admit that by his own rule of “majority scholarly opinion” he should abandon his “middle position” on the historicity of the Pentateuch.
Maybe you can persuade him to admit that by his own rule of “majority scholarly opinion” he should abandon his “middle position” on the historicity of the Pentateuch.
I will be surprised if either of these scenarios transpires.
Honesty is a rare coin with some.
From what I have read and watched ( listened to), of William Dever for example, I understand he has changed his view considerably over the years moving ever closer to a minimalist position. I am not sure exactly where he stands now, ( somewhere in Malta I think? ) but it seems unlikely there will be any sort of meaningful shift away from it in the near future, by him or anyone else.
I doubt we’ll see this happen here. But maybe even I will be surprised?
However, bear in mind, any concession undermines the theological position.
Anyway, the conversation stands as testimony. It speaks for itself, doesn’t it?
I actually think that the “middle position” is the worst of all scenarios for a Christian to adopt. That would mean that the divinely inspired texts were based on history with embellishments added in. Embellishments are to be expected for anything based on centuries of oral re-tellings, but not for something inspired by an all-knowing deity. How can you inspire something that is not true and still be considered perfect? Why inspire inclusion of all those population numbers for the exodus if they are not accurate? This Christian’s god is now the god of divinely inspired falsehoods.
On the flip side, if a Christian adopts a minimalist view then can use the “God revealing truth through parable (fiction)” card and avoid the problem that way. Or they can adopt a maximalist view and just choose to ignore all of the issues that have been raised by archaeology (but this would not be an evidence based approach).
As a last option they could decide to be agnostic concerning the historical nature of Moses and the exodus. If this is acceptable than why not decide to be agnostic concerning Jesus’ miracles and resurrection as well?
many of the fundamentalist christians I know pride themselves on maintaining a strict faith depsite the evidence to the contrary. Some grand testament to faith, or something.
what strikes me is that many of these arent back-wood, uneducated, snake handlers, but rather educated and with nearly everything other the bible, rational and reasonable adults who arent gullible morons believing everything they’re told.
even unkleE says the bible should be treated like every other book. what other books do they treat with such favor? what other books of deities, demi-gods and miracles do they believe in – what others do they spend their time imagining corrections to constrictions for or pretend workarounds to all the other internal problems?
Aliens? that’s silly.
Bigfoot? funny.
a blonde haired lightning god with a big hammer? haha.
a jewish carpenter, born of a virgin woman, the son of the only one true god… who turns out to be 3, who works miracles so that people can believe, but then wont work them because no one will believe miracles if they dont believe the OT, dies, raises from the dead and flies into heaven, and gets several differnt guys to write a book for him, because handwriting your own clear and concise message isnt as good as having several other lesser men write if you in a way that at least appears to have problems with it? most logical thing i’ve ever heard.
a jewish carpenter, born of a virgin woman, the son of the only one true god
Yes, well sadly, this is where all the posturing and education and apparent grounded-in-common- sense-I-lean-toward-the-middle-view and listen to the experts, flies out the bloody window as not only are the above adhered to but also the nonsense I cite in your quote.
example: ”I accept the carbon dating on this but also think the virgin birth of a messiah has credibility.”
And , let’s be honest, how can one genuinely afford anyone serious credibility in such matters as archaeology and other relevant scientific fields when as soon as the door is closed we are espousing this silliness?
It must surely be evidence of indoctrination albeit subtle.
I believe that the primary problem with most Christians, including UnkleE, is that have been brainwashed into believing that faith (believing in something without evidence) is a virtue. Not only is it a virtue, it is the **greatest** of all virtues. Christians like UnkleE use reason and logic as the criteria for determining truth in every other aspect of their lives…except when it comes to religion. Then, reason and logic are ordered into the back seat, and blind faith asked to jump into the driver’s seat.
Driving blindly. Not smart.
“Reason is the Devil’s greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil’s appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom … Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism… She would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets.”
—Martin Luther, Erlangen Edition v. 16, pp. 142-148
I believe that the primary problem with most Christians, including UnkleE, is that have been brainwashed into believing that faith (believing in something without evidence) is a virtue. Not only is it a virtue, it is the **greatest** of all virtues. Christians like UnkleE use reason and logic as the criteria for determining truth in every other aspect of their lives…except when it comes to religion.
Gary-
Whether faith is a problem or not, I don’t think I’d categorize it as a virtue. I would tend to categorize more as a necessity for me. Many of you here see reason for doing good in the natural world, and I think that is to be commended. I don’t have that same perspective. My perspective of the natural world leads me to despair and hopelessness. What of my actions in my lifetime will not be relegated completely pointless by the inevitability of my death and the eventual end of the universe and life? I cling to the hope that there is meaning beyond what I can see, and redemption and reconciliation in some form beyond what I can see and understand. I may very well be wrong in that, but I have found no other way to maintain my sanity in the light of what seems to be an otherwise pointless existence. That faith and hope keeps me moving forward, and keeps me working toward the bettering of myself and the world around me. I cling to the hope that there is actually real meaning behind the reconciliation I am trying to be a part of. When that hope fades, as it does from time to time, depression and hopelessness ravage me. There is often nothing I can do but cling to that hope. Those of us who have weaknesses that seem impossible to overcome have nothing to do but hope. It is irrational and illogical, as @william pointed out. But, it is sustaining for me. Are there other reasons I believe? Sure, as I’ve clumsily tried to demonstrate now and then on this site. But, this is by far the strongest and most important. Will the pain I see, not only mine, but the much worse pain and horror I see happening to others, be reconciled and redeemed. I have no clue. But, I hope. And, in Jesus, I find someone in whom I can place that hope.
One year ago, as I watched my cherished Christian faith slowly slip away, I was terrified. What meaning is there to life without God? What meaning is there to life without the promise of eternal life?
I can promise you, as I’m sure all the other ex-Christians on this site will confirm, you will quickly lose that fear. Life is wonderful without living in fear of an invisible Dictator who demands you love him…or else. Life is MORE meaningful than ever before because you know that this is all you’ve got. Instead of living for the “sweet by and by”, you live for now. You live in the present, not the future. Your family and especially (if you have them) your children become more precious than ever. You WILL live forever, Josh. You will live forever in your children and their children and their children. What you teach them regarding how to treat their neighbor will be passed down from generation to generation.
So don’t teach them ancient middle-eastern superstitions, Josh. Teach them the beauty of Humanism, of Science, and of Reason.
I cling to the hope that there is meaning beyond what I can see, and redemption and reconciliation in some form beyond what I can see and understand.
Josh, you were talking to Gary, but hope it’s okay if I respond.
I have no problem with someone hoping for more, something better, more meaningful, etc. I am tempted to do the same myself sometimes. I don’t necessarily want to live forever because that would be wearisome, but it would be nice to feel like I’ve had a positive impact on the future of something. Anyway, I wonder if focusing too much on the “more” things can lead someone to depression and hopelessness when they do focus on the “now” things. Like, if someone spent a lot time thinking about heaven or something and then being faced with “back to reality” it could actually have a negative impact, know what I mean?
You wrote: “I may very well be wrong in that, but I have found no other way to maintain my sanity in the light of what seems to be an otherwise pointless existence.”
I won’t pretend to have answers, but I’ll share some things that help me cope with the possibility of naturalism: Rather than looking at it as a bad thing it could be looked at as a unique opportunity – we get to experience existing and all that that entails. We get to have a small or great impact on our immediate friends and family.
Yes, we will probably all be forgotten about one day, but there’s no reason to put all our focus on that. That would be like focusing on the fact that a football game or baseball game will come to an end rather than enjoying the game and just playing for the sake of enjoyment and companionship. Imagine someone sulking around the field all because the game will not last forever (not saying that’s you!) … just trying to make a comparison.
hope can be a motivator to act on something, but i’m not so sure it’s a good one for believing in something.
but as far as motivators, would you say that fear is factor for you? fear of hell, fear of rejection by god, fear of having to find a new hope (not star wars), or fear of being alone, etc?
<blockquoteI don’t think you are ignorant, Josh. Just afraid.
but as far as motivators, would you say that fear is factor for you? fear of hell, fear of rejection by god, fear of having to find a new hope (not star wars), or fear of being alone, etc?
Afraid? Maybe. I’m not afraid of hell or rejection by God – I have quite heretical views on both of those subjects. Maybe fear of the unknown, fear that all those who are trampled in this life with no recourse have even less hope than I. Fear of that kind definitely sinks in.
“[W]e get to experience existing and all that that entails.” — Dave
Absolutely!!! For me, this has become my mantra. I don’t know why I’m here. I don’t know how I got here. I don’t know (for sure) what will happen to me when I die.
But … I’m here now. And I’m not going to let fear become part of my life because of the superstitious ramblings in some so-called holy book.
Josh, I feel like you’re standing at the door, looking at the exit sign, but for some reason you’re still thinking the exit sign is a lie or a trap or a test, and that you’re supposed to stay put…
allow yourself to just consider that the signs might be right, and view the bible and the world with view for a second, and I think you’ll feel like I did… that you were once blind, but now you see.
in addition to what you’ve both said, i recognize that acting with reason, skepticism and logical courage help me in every instance in life, where as believing in something or doing something simply out of hope or fear, if not blind faith, only leads to poorer performances or problems in the business world, in school, in sports… so why is the religion of your choice the only exception to that rule?
I feel like you’re standing at the door, looking at the exit sign
Of religion? I certainly am. Of hope in reconciliation that might be represented in Jesus? I’m not so much at the door of that one. The hope is strong with this one 🙂
Hoping something is true is different than believing something is true. It almost sounds, Josh, like your worldview is closer to mine (agnosticism) with the exception that you have hope in Jesus to save us from death and give us an afterlife.
I hope for things too, but I don’t really put a name to them (like Jesus or Yahweh). I hope that there is a creator deity that put this universe together and will one day give us all the answers we’ve been spent our lives searching for. This doesn’t mean I “believe” this deity actually exists, nor do I rule out the possibility, I just “hope” that it does because I have a lot of questions.
Finding Truth 
Unk: “I think it is time to pull the plug.”
Yes! Please!
Please stop refusing to admit you are wrong.
Nate: Please weigh in on this issue. Maybe you can persuade him to admit that by his own rule of “majority scholarly opinion” he should abandon his “middle position” on the historicity of the Pentateuch.
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“they placed camels in the 2nd millennium that wouldn’t be domesticated until 1000 BCE” – Sorry, meant to say, “in the 3rd millennium” —
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“Indeed, the chieftain of Meggido, Biridiya, asks for 50 soldiers from king Amenhotep IV in the Amarna letters.” – I know, he CC’d me —
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I will be surprised if either of these scenarios transpires.
Honesty is a rare coin with some.
From what I have read and watched ( listened to), of William Dever for example, I understand he has changed his view considerably over the years moving ever closer to a minimalist position. I am not sure exactly where he stands now, ( somewhere in Malta I think? ) but it seems unlikely there will be any sort of meaningful shift away from it in the near future, by him or anyone else.
I doubt we’ll see this happen here. But maybe even I will be surprised?
However, bear in mind, any concession undermines the theological position.
Anyway, the conversation stands as testimony. It speaks for itself, doesn’t it?
LikeLike
I actually think that the “middle position” is the worst of all scenarios for a Christian to adopt. That would mean that the divinely inspired texts were based on history with embellishments added in. Embellishments are to be expected for anything based on centuries of oral re-tellings, but not for something inspired by an all-knowing deity. How can you inspire something that is not true and still be considered perfect? Why inspire inclusion of all those population numbers for the exodus if they are not accurate? This Christian’s god is now the god of divinely inspired falsehoods.
On the flip side, if a Christian adopts a minimalist view then can use the “God revealing truth through parable (fiction)” card and avoid the problem that way. Or they can adopt a maximalist view and just choose to ignore all of the issues that have been raised by archaeology (but this would not be an evidence based approach).
As a last option they could decide to be agnostic concerning the historical nature of Moses and the exodus. If this is acceptable than why not decide to be agnostic concerning Jesus’ miracles and resurrection as well?
LikeLiked by 2 people
many of the fundamentalist christians I know pride themselves on maintaining a strict faith depsite the evidence to the contrary. Some grand testament to faith, or something.
what strikes me is that many of these arent back-wood, uneducated, snake handlers, but rather educated and with nearly everything other the bible, rational and reasonable adults who arent gullible morons believing everything they’re told.
even unkleE says the bible should be treated like every other book. what other books do they treat with such favor? what other books of deities, demi-gods and miracles do they believe in – what others do they spend their time imagining corrections to constrictions for or pretend workarounds to all the other internal problems?
Aliens? that’s silly.
Bigfoot? funny.
a blonde haired lightning god with a big hammer? haha.
a jewish carpenter, born of a virgin woman, the son of the only one true god… who turns out to be 3, who works miracles so that people can believe, but then wont work them because no one will believe miracles if they dont believe the OT, dies, raises from the dead and flies into heaven, and gets several differnt guys to write a book for him, because handwriting your own clear and concise message isnt as good as having several other lesser men write if you in a way that at least appears to have problems with it? most logical thing i’ve ever heard.
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@William
Yes, well sadly, this is where all the posturing and education and apparent grounded-in-common- sense-I-lean-toward-the-middle-view and listen to the experts, flies out the bloody window as not only are the above adhered to but also the nonsense I cite in your quote.
example: ”I accept the carbon dating on this but also think the virgin birth of a messiah has credibility.”
And , let’s be honest, how can one genuinely afford anyone serious credibility in such matters as archaeology and other relevant scientific fields when as soon as the door is closed we are espousing this silliness?
It must surely be evidence of indoctrination albeit subtle.
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I believe that the primary problem with most Christians, including UnkleE, is that have been brainwashed into believing that faith (believing in something without evidence) is a virtue. Not only is it a virtue, it is the **greatest** of all virtues. Christians like UnkleE use reason and logic as the criteria for determining truth in every other aspect of their lives…except when it comes to religion. Then, reason and logic are ordered into the back seat, and blind faith asked to jump into the driver’s seat.
Driving blindly. Not smart.
“Reason is the Devil’s greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil’s appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom … Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism… She would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets.”
—Martin Luther, Erlangen Edition v. 16, pp. 142-148
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Gary-
Whether faith is a problem or not, I don’t think I’d categorize it as a virtue. I would tend to categorize more as a necessity for me. Many of you here see reason for doing good in the natural world, and I think that is to be commended. I don’t have that same perspective. My perspective of the natural world leads me to despair and hopelessness. What of my actions in my lifetime will not be relegated completely pointless by the inevitability of my death and the eventual end of the universe and life? I cling to the hope that there is meaning beyond what I can see, and redemption and reconciliation in some form beyond what I can see and understand. I may very well be wrong in that, but I have found no other way to maintain my sanity in the light of what seems to be an otherwise pointless existence. That faith and hope keeps me moving forward, and keeps me working toward the bettering of myself and the world around me. I cling to the hope that there is actually real meaning behind the reconciliation I am trying to be a part of. When that hope fades, as it does from time to time, depression and hopelessness ravage me. There is often nothing I can do but cling to that hope. Those of us who have weaknesses that seem impossible to overcome have nothing to do but hope. It is irrational and illogical, as @william pointed out. But, it is sustaining for me. Are there other reasons I believe? Sure, as I’ve clumsily tried to demonstrate now and then on this site. But, this is by far the strongest and most important. Will the pain I see, not only mine, but the much worse pain and horror I see happening to others, be reconciled and redeemed. I have no clue. But, I hope. And, in Jesus, I find someone in whom I can place that hope.
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I understand how you feel, Josh.
One year ago, as I watched my cherished Christian faith slowly slip away, I was terrified. What meaning is there to life without God? What meaning is there to life without the promise of eternal life?
I can promise you, as I’m sure all the other ex-Christians on this site will confirm, you will quickly lose that fear. Life is wonderful without living in fear of an invisible Dictator who demands you love him…or else. Life is MORE meaningful than ever before because you know that this is all you’ve got. Instead of living for the “sweet by and by”, you live for now. You live in the present, not the future. Your family and especially (if you have them) your children become more precious than ever. You WILL live forever, Josh. You will live forever in your children and their children and their children. What you teach them regarding how to treat their neighbor will be passed down from generation to generation.
So don’t teach them ancient middle-eastern superstitions, Josh. Teach them the beauty of Humanism, of Science, and of Reason.
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Thanks for your words, Gary. Maybe I will join you on that side of the fence one day. For now, stubborn and ignorant is hope what I have 🙂
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I don’t think you are ignorant, Josh. Just afraid.
I understand.
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Josh, you were talking to Gary, but hope it’s okay if I respond.
I have no problem with someone hoping for more, something better, more meaningful, etc. I am tempted to do the same myself sometimes. I don’t necessarily want to live forever because that would be wearisome, but it would be nice to feel like I’ve had a positive impact on the future of something. Anyway, I wonder if focusing too much on the “more” things can lead someone to depression and hopelessness when they do focus on the “now” things. Like, if someone spent a lot time thinking about heaven or something and then being faced with “back to reality” it could actually have a negative impact, know what I mean?
You wrote: “I may very well be wrong in that, but I have found no other way to maintain my sanity in the light of what seems to be an otherwise pointless existence.”
I won’t pretend to have answers, but I’ll share some things that help me cope with the possibility of naturalism: Rather than looking at it as a bad thing it could be looked at as a unique opportunity – we get to experience existing and all that that entails. We get to have a small or great impact on our immediate friends and family.
Yes, we will probably all be forgotten about one day, but there’s no reason to put all our focus on that. That would be like focusing on the fact that a football game or baseball game will come to an end rather than enjoying the game and just playing for the sake of enjoyment and companionship. Imagine someone sulking around the field all because the game will not last forever (not saying that’s you!) … just trying to make a comparison.
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I like your baseball analogy, Dave. Very insightful.
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Josh,
hope can be a motivator to act on something, but i’m not so sure it’s a good one for believing in something.
but as far as motivators, would you say that fear is factor for you? fear of hell, fear of rejection by god, fear of having to find a new hope (not star wars), or fear of being alone, etc?
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<blockquoteI don’t think you are ignorant, Josh. Just afraid.
but as far as motivators, would you say that fear is factor for you? fear of hell, fear of rejection by god, fear of having to find a new hope (not star wars), or fear of being alone, etc?
Afraid? Maybe. I’m not afraid of hell or rejection by God – I have quite heretical views on both of those subjects. Maybe fear of the unknown, fear that all those who are trampled in this life with no recourse have even less hope than I. Fear of that kind definitely sinks in.
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Stupid blockquotes!
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Dave-
I see where you’re coming from. I certainly can understand the naturalistic view. I am very tempted by it at times.
I think that’s a good perspective. I think we all do have that impact, whether we realize it or not.
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“[W]e get to experience existing and all that that entails.” — Dave
Absolutely!!! For me, this has become my mantra. I don’t know why I’m here. I don’t know how I got here. I don’t know (for sure) what will happen to me when I die.
But … I’m here now. And I’m not going to let fear become part of my life because of the superstitious ramblings in some so-called holy book.
Carpe diem!
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Josh, I feel like you’re standing at the door, looking at the exit sign, but for some reason you’re still thinking the exit sign is a lie or a trap or a test, and that you’re supposed to stay put…
allow yourself to just consider that the signs might be right, and view the bible and the world with view for a second, and I think you’ll feel like I did… that you were once blind, but now you see.
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and nan/dave,
in addition to what you’ve both said, i recognize that acting with reason, skepticism and logical courage help me in every instance in life, where as believing in something or doing something simply out of hope or fear, if not blind faith, only leads to poorer performances or problems in the business world, in school, in sports… so why is the religion of your choice the only exception to that rule?
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Of religion? I certainly am. Of hope in reconciliation that might be represented in Jesus? I’m not so much at the door of that one. The hope is strong with this one 🙂
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unlike the force, hope doesn’t lift rocks so well.
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No, but it carries me just fine.
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Hoping something is true is different than believing something is true. It almost sounds, Josh, like your worldview is closer to mine (agnosticism) with the exception that you have hope in Jesus to save us from death and give us an afterlife.
I hope for things too, but I don’t really put a name to them (like Jesus or Yahweh). I hope that there is a creator deity that put this universe together and will one day give us all the answers we’ve been spent our lives searching for. This doesn’t mean I “believe” this deity actually exists, nor do I rule out the possibility, I just “hope” that it does because I have a lot of questions.
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