I’m not at all suggesting that all prayer is answered, or that these and the other studies offer proof of anything. But I am saying that the medical evidence is against what you have said, and I don’t think your statement is well based. I’m hoping you’ll be interested in getting the best facts available. Thanks.
IMO, all these articles are saying is that if one practices religion or believes in some kind of spiritual superbeing, they may have better health and/or faster healing. It does not necessarily indicate that prayer had anything to do with it.
From another perspective … I often ask why does god allow the sickness, the tragedy, the death to happen in the first place?
Faith doesn’t make a damn bit of sense. That said, prayer causes people to unite under a common purpose and focus on a singular goal. When people do such things fervently, amazing things can happen.
It always strikes me as funny that the only response people accept to a prayer is the one they want. (An “answered prayer” is one in which God did as s/he was told. Any other “response is typically considered a non-answer.) Most prayers, if they are “answered”, are answered through the efforts of people. Whether that’s “God” pulling the strings, just human effort, or some combination of the two is anybody’s guess.
That said, there is some Freaky Shit that happens in this world that cannot be explained. Makes this marble more interesting, really.
Ok, Unkle E, I am going on the record admitting that I am wrong and you are right…kind of.
Read the following excerpt from an article in Psychology Today in which their studies show that religious people in counties like the United States do have better health statistics than atheists, however, before you jump for joy, the article goes on to then ask this question: If religion/faith is the key factor in better health, why then do secular countries like Sweden and Japan have much better health statistics than the much more religious United States?
Excerpt: In the U.S. some health researchers are fond of giving religion the credit for boosting life expectancy. Yet despite being a nation with a large religious majority, Americans have much lower life expectancy than is enjoyed by secular countries at a similar level of economic development such as Japan and Sweden. Evidently, the lower quality of life here both provides a market for religion and reduces life expectancy.
From that perspective, it seems bizarre that health researchers would be so keen to tout the alleged health advantages of religion (2). If religion really promoted longevity, how could people have such short life expectancy in sub-Saharan Africa where virtually everyone is deeply religious?
Watching the Miss Universe contest (for no other reason than really hoping to see Venusians or maybe Andromedans, but nooooo!), and Miss USA was chosen as one of the last five finalists (SURPRISE!), but she lost me when she said that if she won the title, she would be blessed. BIG minus —
“if one practices religion or believes in some kind of spiritual superbeing, they may have better health and/or faster healing.”
I’m glad we are agreed on this. But it isn’t just belief in something vague – the studies sometimes differentiate different types of belief. For example, belief in a loving God helps health more than belief in an angry God; prior belief is better than a belief a person takes on in the crisis; a personal and spiritual belief is generally better than a cultural belief; certain practices seem to be important, etc.
“It does not necessarily indicate that prayer had anything to do with it.”
No, not “necessarily”, but it does seem to be important. e.g. like I said, prior belief and religious practice is a great help when a health crisis occurs, and those practices generally include prayer, and may be specifically measured in some studies. So prayer is in the mix along with other things. It would take very specifically designed studies to separate out the causes, and some studies have done that. For instance, neuroscience studies by Andy Newberg led him to this conclusion: “Activities involving meditation and intensive prayer permanently strengthen neural functioning in specific parts of the brain that are involved with lowering anxiety and depression, enhancing social awareness and empathy, and improving cognitive and intellectual functioning.” (How God Changes Your Brain, p 149)
“Ok, Unkle E, I am going on the record admitting that I am wrong and you are right…kind of.”
Thanks for that. I hoped, as a doctor, that you would see that.
“If religion/faith is the key factor in better health, why then do secular countries like Sweden and Japan have much better health statistics than the much more religious United States?”
This is very easy to explain. Such studies only work when the study controls for other factors like age, diet, marital status, age, etc. In simple terms, religiosity is associated with better physical and mental health other things being equal
But of course, when comparing people from Europe or Japan and the US, other things aren’t equal. There could be all sorts of factors involved – diet, exercise, gun ownership, homicide rates, unemployment, social security (or lack of it), hereditary, etc. Only when a study controls for those factors, and many others, can the conclusions on religiosity be compared.
Gary, that Psychology Today article is really a bit silly. It concludes with this:
“If religion really promoted longevity, how could people have such short life expectancy in sub-Saharan Africa where virtually everyone is deeply religious?”
Now surely it doesn’t take a lot of imagination to postulate a few reasons why a religious person in sub-Saharan Africa may have a shorter life expectancy that an atheist in Sweden?
You assume that if all things were equal, that American (for example) illness and death rates would be lower than those of the Japanese and the Swedes. Do you have evidence for this statement? The article I quoted from Psychology Today asserts that the disparity between theists and non-theists in the United States is possibly due to the fact that theists run this country and atheists are often treated like outcasts. I will have to see what research they have conducted to back up this assertion. In your country, which is twice as secular as the United States, the health statistics and life expectancy rates are better. Are you saying that Americans have such terrible diets, lifestyles, and gun laws that all of that outweighs the benefit of having a much higher rate of faith in God?
But maybe there is some truth to your position: Maybe believing that an all-powerful, invisible, imaginary friend is always with you and will always provide you with emotional/psychological support, no matter what tragedy you suffer, may lower your blood pressure and have other positive health effects.
If you are correct, what does that mean? That believing in imaginary beings is good for your health?? Is that really what we want to teach our children? Isn’t there any value to the truth?
And another question: Is there any country on earth that is highly religious AND as healthy as Sweden and Japan? Why are the most religious countries in the world, and the most religious states in the US, often the places of higher infant mortality, poorer health, and lower life expectancy?
Lastly, do Christians really want to push the idea that one can derive the same health benefits by believing in ANY supernatural belief system as one receives by believing in Jesus, who they allege is the one and only true God? I should have left “and those of no Faith” out of my original statement: Why are there no significant differences in healing rates, accident rates, and death rates between Christians and persons of other
religions? If one can receive the same health benefits and longevity by praying to Allah or Lord Krishna as praying to Jesus, why go with Jesus? I don’t see how Christians can point to perceived personal miracles and healings and attribute those events as proof of Jesus as the One, True God.
“Now surely it doesn’t take a lot of imagination to postulate a few reasons why a religious person in sub-Saharan Africa may have a shorter life expectancy that an atheist in Sweden?”
Why?
Let’s leave out the orthodox Christian teaching that God punishes non-believers who reject Christ with bad fortune, and assume that God simply leaves atheists in Sweden and Japan alone. So if the overwhelming majority of people in sub-Saharan Africa are very devout persons of faith and prayer, why wouldn’t God provide them with equivalent life expectancy and good health as he seems to allow the Swedes and Japanese to enjoy?
“Ask anything in my name, and it will be done…”
If God really “blesses” the faithful, sub-Saharan Africa should be an area of peace, tranquility, and economic boom. Why isn’t it? Is it possible that the reason is this: while the people in sub-Saharan Africa are spending their days praying to Allah and Jesus to improve their lives and are following ancient, superstition-laden cultural rules that encourage bigotry and discrimination, the Swedes and Japanese are using science and principles of secular humanism to create peaceful, harmonious, low-crime societies?
“You assume that if all things were equal, that American (for example) illness and death rates would be lower than those of the Japanese and the Swedes.”
No, I don’t assume that at all. Why on earth would I assume that? It quite likely isn’t true – for a start, how could ALL things be equal?. And why did you think I had assumed that?
I said: “Only when a study controls for those factors, and many others, can the conclusions on religiosity be compared.” So obviously I wouldn’t draw any conclusion unless a study had controlled for all the other relevant factors.
“Why are the most religious countries in the world, and the most religious states in the US, often the places of higher infant mortality, poorer health, and lower life expectancy?”
This is a good question, and there is a tentative answer for it (i.e. a hypothesis), though I’m not sure if this is properly established yet. Poorer countries and countries with higher wealth inequality, have lower levels of health and prosociality and higher levels of crime. People feel less secure than if they are in wealthy safer countries with less inequality. People who are poor or insecure are more likely to turn to religion. So it is likely that wealth is the key to both health ands religion. The US is anomalous in some of these areas because it is a wealthy country but it has higher inequality, crime and homicide. It is dangerous to use the US as an example because it is an outlier in many of these stats. I can give you references to studies on all this if you want.
But like I said, you can’t use statistics with multiple factors to make a statement about any one of those factors without controlling for all the others.
“while the people in sub-Saharan Africa are spending their days praying to Allah and Jesus to improve their lives and are following ancient, superstition-laden cultural rules that encourage bigotry and discrimination, “
Gary, this is another speculation like your comment that we started with and which you have agreed was wrong. Have you any evidence that this occurs? I think I have evidence that this too is a demonstrably false statement, and I’ll see if I can find it. Until then, it is a baseless statement.
I would have thought it was obvious that most sun Saharan countries are way poorer than Europe, Japan and the US, have far less effective health systems, are subject to drought, sometimes civil war and sometimes famine. Before you draw any conclusions, you’d have to control for those factors, and I suggest (1) that would be very difficult and (2) once those factors were controlled for, there’s be very little difference left to explain.
Unless of course you think that medical science is largely useless!!?? 🙂
I guess you aren’t seeing my point. When Jesus said (or at least the anonymous authors of the Bible assert he said), “ask anything in my name and it shall be done unto you…” I think he meant it. If you have TRUE faith in me, you will have the power to move mountains. Either the devout people of sub-Saharan Africa aren’t praying hard enough, or Jesus was wrong about the extent of his magical powers.
Bottom line, our discussion may have revealed that, in certain countries, if the majority believes that they have an all-powerful imaginary friend, the result is that they have better health and life expectancy as compared to persons who do not believe in imaginary friends, but you are still stuck with the fact that there is no proof that believing that one’s imaginary friend’s name is Jesus is any more advantageous than if his name is Allah or Krishna.
Our discussion may have proven that imaginary friends are heart healthy, but please provide evidence that Jesus specifically answers prayers for health, safety, and long life any more effectively than prayers to any other imaginary friend. If Christians could demonstrate that prayers to Jesus really work, whereas prayers to any other god do not, you would probably see some of us come back to the fold. I don’t think you can do that…but then I’ve been wrong before…
Imagine if there was a study that demonstrated that people who believe in fairies and leprechauns live longer. Would that be reason enough to believe, pray to, and worship these invisible entities??
Sorry. I’ll take the truth…even if it shaves a few years off my life expectancy.
Gary, we have reached some understanding, that religious belief and practice does, on average, confer some health benefits. I could show you information on prayers to the God of Jesus leading to surprising recoveries in some instances, but I’m doubtful you would be convinced, so why bother? I have achieved what I set out to do, and that is sufficient for me. Thanks.
Anyone unfamiliar with unklee’s presentation of highly distilled ”facts” to support his fundamental Christian perspective – which contains zero fun but a llot of mental – might be left wondering if he is simply uniformed and might want to do the charitable thing and help straighten him out.
Those familiar with unklee’s, somewhat sycophantic and oft-times condescending method of presenting his brand of highly-distilled ”facts” merely indulge his ineptitude because, as he rightly states,
”Every atheist blog has to have a token christian to be the whipping boy”
.
And for once I wholeheartedly agree with him – he is a token Christian, and an ignorant one at that.
the studies sometimes differentiate different types of belief. For example, belief in a loving God helps health more than belief in an angry God; prior belief is better than a belief a person takes on in the crisis; a personal and spiritual belief is generally better than a cultural belief; certain practices seem to be important, etc.
… For instance, neuroscience studies by Andy Newberg led him to this conclusion:
Activities involving meditation and intensive prayer permanently strengthen neural functioning in specific parts of the brain that are involved with lowering anxiety and depression, enhancing social awareness and empathy, and improving cognitive and intellectual functioning.
(How God Changes Your Brain, p 149)
To me, these points are extremely important. If God’s real, you’d think that whether people believed in a happier version of him vs an angrier version wouldn’t make much difference in their health so long as they believed. Coming to belief earlier in one’s life shouldn’t matter much either, just so long as you come to that belief (parable of the workers in the vineyard). Also, why would meditation offer the same benefits, since meditation is often practiced by non-religious people or adherents of Eastern religions?
But if these benefits have nothing to do with the supernatural but stem from the effects of optimism, then these details make perfect sense.
Finding Truth 
Hi nonsupernaturalist,
“There is zero evidence that such a disparity exists.”
I wonder what your evidence is for this statement? Could you share with us please on what you base it? Thanks.
Just to offer an alternative view, I do have evidence for the opposite view. Here’s just a few examples (I have many more):
Researchers Study Health-Faith Connection
Spirituality May Help People Live Longer
Religion, spirituality, and physical health in cancer patients: A meta-analysis
View of God as benevolent and forgiving or punishing and judgmental predicts HIV disease progression.
I’m not at all suggesting that all prayer is answered, or that these and the other studies offer proof of anything. But I am saying that the medical evidence is against what you have said, and I don’t think your statement is well based. I’m hoping you’ll be interested in getting the best facts available. Thanks.
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IMO, all these articles are saying is that if one practices religion or believes in some kind of spiritual superbeing, they may have better health and/or faster healing. It does not necessarily indicate that prayer had anything to do with it.
From another perspective … I often ask why does god allow the sickness, the tragedy, the death to happen in the first place?
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(See Tim Minchin’s ‘Thank You God,’ above –)
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Faith doesn’t make a damn bit of sense. That said, prayer causes people to unite under a common purpose and focus on a singular goal. When people do such things fervently, amazing things can happen.
It always strikes me as funny that the only response people accept to a prayer is the one they want. (An “answered prayer” is one in which God did as s/he was told. Any other “response is typically considered a non-answer.) Most prayers, if they are “answered”, are answered through the efforts of people. Whether that’s “God” pulling the strings, just human effort, or some combination of the two is anybody’s guess.
That said, there is some Freaky Shit that happens in this world that cannot be explained. Makes this marble more interesting, really.
LikeLiked by 1 person
LikeLiked by 1 person
Ok, Unkle E, I am going on the record admitting that I am wrong and you are right…kind of.
Read the following excerpt from an article in Psychology Today in which their studies show that religious people in counties like the United States do have better health statistics than atheists, however, before you jump for joy, the article goes on to then ask this question: If religion/faith is the key factor in better health, why then do secular countries like Sweden and Japan have much better health statistics than the much more religious United States?
Excerpt: In the U.S. some health researchers are fond of giving religion the credit for boosting life expectancy. Yet despite being a nation with a large religious majority, Americans have much lower life expectancy than is enjoyed by secular countries at a similar level of economic development such as Japan and Sweden. Evidently, the lower quality of life here both provides a market for religion and reduces life expectancy.
From that perspective, it seems bizarre that health researchers would be so keen to tout the alleged health advantages of religion (2). If religion really promoted longevity, how could people have such short life expectancy in sub-Saharan Africa where virtually everyone is deeply religious?
Gary (nonsupernaturalist)
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Watching the Miss Universe contest (for no other reason than really hoping to see Venusians or maybe Andromedans, but nooooo!), and Miss USA was chosen as one of the last five finalists (SURPRISE!), but she lost me when she said that if she won the title, she would be blessed. BIG minus —
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Psychology today article:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/201302/do-religious-people-really-live-longer
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Hi Nan,
“if one practices religion or believes in some kind of spiritual superbeing, they may have better health and/or faster healing.”
I’m glad we are agreed on this. But it isn’t just belief in something vague – the studies sometimes differentiate different types of belief. For example, belief in a loving God helps health more than belief in an angry God; prior belief is better than a belief a person takes on in the crisis; a personal and spiritual belief is generally better than a cultural belief; certain practices seem to be important, etc.
“It does not necessarily indicate that prayer had anything to do with it.”
No, not “necessarily”, but it does seem to be important. e.g. like I said, prior belief and religious practice is a great help when a health crisis occurs, and those practices generally include prayer, and may be specifically measured in some studies. So prayer is in the mix along with other things. It would take very specifically designed studies to separate out the causes, and some studies have done that. For instance, neuroscience studies by Andy Newberg led him to this conclusion: “Activities involving meditation and intensive prayer permanently strengthen neural functioning in specific parts of the brain that are involved with lowering anxiety and depression, enhancing social awareness and empathy, and improving cognitive and intellectual functioning.” (How God Changes Your Brain, p 149)
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Hi Gary,
“Ok, Unkle E, I am going on the record admitting that I am wrong and you are right…kind of.”
Thanks for that. I hoped, as a doctor, that you would see that.
“If religion/faith is the key factor in better health, why then do secular countries like Sweden and Japan have much better health statistics than the much more religious United States?”
This is very easy to explain. Such studies only work when the study controls for other factors like age, diet, marital status, age, etc. In simple terms, religiosity is associated with better physical and mental health other things being equal
But of course, when comparing people from Europe or Japan and the US, other things aren’t equal. There could be all sorts of factors involved – diet, exercise, gun ownership, homicide rates, unemployment, social security (or lack of it), hereditary, etc. Only when a study controls for those factors, and many others, can the conclusions on religiosity be compared.
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Gary, that Psychology Today article is really a bit silly. It concludes with this:
“If religion really promoted longevity, how could people have such short life expectancy in sub-Saharan Africa where virtually everyone is deeply religious?”
Now surely it doesn’t take a lot of imagination to postulate a few reasons why a religious person in sub-Saharan Africa may have a shorter life expectancy that an atheist in Sweden?
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I had my tonsils out when I was seven, since then, I haven’t been ill a day in my life – I don’t pray, I don’t get sick – works for me.
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You are making an assumption, Unkle E.
You assume that if all things were equal, that American (for example) illness and death rates would be lower than those of the Japanese and the Swedes. Do you have evidence for this statement? The article I quoted from Psychology Today asserts that the disparity between theists and non-theists in the United States is possibly due to the fact that theists run this country and atheists are often treated like outcasts. I will have to see what research they have conducted to back up this assertion. In your country, which is twice as secular as the United States, the health statistics and life expectancy rates are better. Are you saying that Americans have such terrible diets, lifestyles, and gun laws that all of that outweighs the benefit of having a much higher rate of faith in God?
But maybe there is some truth to your position: Maybe believing that an all-powerful, invisible, imaginary friend is always with you and will always provide you with emotional/psychological support, no matter what tragedy you suffer, may lower your blood pressure and have other positive health effects.
If you are correct, what does that mean? That believing in imaginary beings is good for your health?? Is that really what we want to teach our children? Isn’t there any value to the truth?
And another question: Is there any country on earth that is highly religious AND as healthy as Sweden and Japan? Why are the most religious countries in the world, and the most religious states in the US, often the places of higher infant mortality, poorer health, and lower life expectancy?
Lastly, do Christians really want to push the idea that one can derive the same health benefits by believing in ANY supernatural belief system as one receives by believing in Jesus, who they allege is the one and only true God? I should have left “and those of no Faith” out of my original statement: Why are there no significant differences in healing rates, accident rates, and death rates between Christians and persons of other
religions? If one can receive the same health benefits and longevity by praying to Allah or Lord Krishna as praying to Jesus, why go with Jesus? I don’t see how Christians can point to perceived personal miracles and healings and attribute those events as proof of Jesus as the One, True God.
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“You are making an assumption, Unkle E.” – You’ll find, Gary, that he makes a lot of those —
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I’d imagine most of your read Epiphenom (Tom Reese).
Recent pertinent article:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/epiphenom/2015/12/whether-religious-people-are-more-healthy-depends-upon-the-social-context.html
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The one thing to which I have to look forward with mixed emotions, is that in your country, the adorable Koala and you are on the road to extinction.
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“Now surely it doesn’t take a lot of imagination to postulate a few reasons why a religious person in sub-Saharan Africa may have a shorter life expectancy that an atheist in Sweden?”
Why?
Let’s leave out the orthodox Christian teaching that God punishes non-believers who reject Christ with bad fortune, and assume that God simply leaves atheists in Sweden and Japan alone. So if the overwhelming majority of people in sub-Saharan Africa are very devout persons of faith and prayer, why wouldn’t God provide them with equivalent life expectancy and good health as he seems to allow the Swedes and Japanese to enjoy?
“Ask anything in my name, and it will be done…”
If God really “blesses” the faithful, sub-Saharan Africa should be an area of peace, tranquility, and economic boom. Why isn’t it? Is it possible that the reason is this: while the people in sub-Saharan Africa are spending their days praying to Allah and Jesus to improve their lives and are following ancient, superstition-laden cultural rules that encourage bigotry and discrimination, the Swedes and Japanese are using science and principles of secular humanism to create peaceful, harmonious, low-crime societies?
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Hi Gary,
“You assume that if all things were equal, that American (for example) illness and death rates would be lower than those of the Japanese and the Swedes.”
No, I don’t assume that at all. Why on earth would I assume that? It quite likely isn’t true – for a start, how could ALL things be equal?. And why did you think I had assumed that?
I said: “Only when a study controls for those factors, and many others, can the conclusions on religiosity be compared.” So obviously I wouldn’t draw any conclusion unless a study had controlled for all the other relevant factors.
“Why are the most religious countries in the world, and the most religious states in the US, often the places of higher infant mortality, poorer health, and lower life expectancy?”
This is a good question, and there is a tentative answer for it (i.e. a hypothesis), though I’m not sure if this is properly established yet. Poorer countries and countries with higher wealth inequality, have lower levels of health and prosociality and higher levels of crime. People feel less secure than if they are in wealthy safer countries with less inequality. People who are poor or insecure are more likely to turn to religion. So it is likely that wealth is the key to both health ands religion. The US is anomalous in some of these areas because it is a wealthy country but it has higher inequality, crime and homicide. It is dangerous to use the US as an example because it is an outlier in many of these stats. I can give you references to studies on all this if you want.
But like I said, you can’t use statistics with multiple factors to make a statement about any one of those factors without controlling for all the others.
“while the people in sub-Saharan Africa are spending their days praying to Allah and Jesus to improve their lives and are following ancient, superstition-laden cultural rules that encourage bigotry and discrimination, “
Gary, this is another speculation like your comment that we started with and which you have agreed was wrong. Have you any evidence that this occurs? I think I have evidence that this too is a demonstrably false statement, and I’ll see if I can find it. Until then, it is a baseless statement.
I would have thought it was obvious that most sun Saharan countries are way poorer than Europe, Japan and the US, have far less effective health systems, are subject to drought, sometimes civil war and sometimes famine. Before you draw any conclusions, you’d have to control for those factors, and I suggest (1) that would be very difficult and (2) once those factors were controlled for, there’s be very little difference left to explain.
Unless of course you think that medical science is largely useless!!?? 🙂
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I guess you aren’t seeing my point. When Jesus said (or at least the anonymous authors of the Bible assert he said), “ask anything in my name and it shall be done unto you…” I think he meant it. If you have TRUE faith in me, you will have the power to move mountains. Either the devout people of sub-Saharan Africa aren’t praying hard enough, or Jesus was wrong about the extent of his magical powers.
LikeLike
Bottom line, our discussion may have revealed that, in certain countries, if the majority believes that they have an all-powerful imaginary friend, the result is that they have better health and life expectancy as compared to persons who do not believe in imaginary friends, but you are still stuck with the fact that there is no proof that believing that one’s imaginary friend’s name is Jesus is any more advantageous than if his name is Allah or Krishna.
Our discussion may have proven that imaginary friends are heart healthy, but please provide evidence that Jesus specifically answers prayers for health, safety, and long life any more effectively than prayers to any other imaginary friend. If Christians could demonstrate that prayers to Jesus really work, whereas prayers to any other god do not, you would probably see some of us come back to the fold. I don’t think you can do that…but then I’ve been wrong before…
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Imagine if there was a study that demonstrated that people who believe in fairies and leprechauns live longer. Would that be reason enough to believe, pray to, and worship these invisible entities??
Sorry. I’ll take the truth…even if it shaves a few years off my life expectancy.
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Gary, we have reached some understanding, that religious belief and practice does, on average, confer some health benefits. I could show you information on prayers to the God of Jesus leading to surprising recoveries in some instances, but I’m doubtful you would be convinced, so why bother? I have achieved what I set out to do, and that is sufficient for me. Thanks.
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Hi Midsouthmom,
“Martyr complex much?”
Lol!! I’ll let you be the judge! 🙂
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Anyone unfamiliar with unklee’s presentation of highly distilled ”facts” to support his fundamental Christian perspective – which contains zero fun but a llot of mental – might be left wondering if he is simply uniformed and might want to do the charitable thing and help straighten him out.
Those familiar with unklee’s, somewhat sycophantic and oft-times condescending method of presenting his brand of highly-distilled ”facts” merely indulge his ineptitude because, as he rightly states,
.
And for once I wholeheartedly agree with him – he is a token Christian, and an ignorant one at that.
LikeLiked by 1 person
To me, these points are extremely important. If God’s real, you’d think that whether people believed in a happier version of him vs an angrier version wouldn’t make much difference in their health so long as they believed. Coming to belief earlier in one’s life shouldn’t matter much either, just so long as you come to that belief (parable of the workers in the vineyard). Also, why would meditation offer the same benefits, since meditation is often practiced by non-religious people or adherents of Eastern religions?
But if these benefits have nothing to do with the supernatural but stem from the effects of optimism, then these details make perfect sense.
LikeLiked by 5 people