151 thoughts on “Does This Make Any Sense At All?”
Unkle E,
Here was my original claim: “If Christian prayer was really as effective as Christians claim it is, we should see dramatically lower illness, accident rates, and death rates among Christians compared to members of other Faiths (or no Faith) in the same society and social class. There is zero evidence that such a disparity exists.”
You have FAILED to disprove the majority of my statement and have only focused on the three words in parentheses. Yes, I agree with you, believing in an imaginary friend seems to convey some health benefits, but the name of that imaginary friend seems to be irrelevant. Christian prayer is no more effective than Muslim or Hindu prayer.
In a similar vein, I was told, on Colorstorm’s blog, that I could easily be the Bible’s god’s next convert – when I expressed doubt, it initiated the following conversation:
Tricia says:
December 21, 2015 at 4:11 pm
God can work miracles on anyone Arch, even you…;)
archaeopteryx1 says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
December 21, 2015 at 4:29 pm
I can wait, Trish, at least until he finishes healing all of the ill, regrowing the limbs of the amputees, and filling the empty bellies of all of the starving children and providing for their future nutritional needs. When he’s done all that – and if he created an entire universe in only six days, it shouldn’t take that long – have him get back to me.
And to further your point, Gary, you did say “dramatically” different stats. And that’s just not the case. There are slight benefits in some studies, but as you said, they aren’t isolated to a single belief set. And some specific studies about prayer have indicated that it might sometimes do more harm than good.
NeuroNotes has lots of links on the ineffectiveness of prayer in the healing process, and I’ve emailed her to join in on this discussion, but I’ve yet to hear back from her.
Back in August when I was challenged about the truth of the Bible over on the Isaiah 53:5 blog I responded by listing a number of passages in the New Testament that suggest the the prayers of the faithful should be answered. I posed the question of whether these promises could be claimed to be honored.
That stored up a hornet’s nest which clearly angered the folk on that blog and after I was accused of taking the texts out of context I was eventually banned from the blog.
Looking back I realise I touched a raw nerve, that the faithful struggle to rationalize the disconnect between what the Bible says the life of the believer should be and the reality of what the experience of that life really is.
I was going to post the link earlier but we got hit by a rather violent lightning storm and all the power went out across half dozen suburbs.
What annoyed the crap out of me was reading the Templeton Foundation had spent 2.4 million on one study and worse ,the frakking US Guv’ment spent around 2 million!
For frak’s sake, that’s over 4 million dollars simply squandered for absolutely nothing.
Just imagine how many kids died of malnutrition while a bunch of half-wits pandered to some goddamned belief continually promoted by religious arseholes – some of whom pop up here on Word-Press.
Truly, It’s enough to make you gag, and such people should be thoroughly ashamed to even admit they put any stock in this horse manure.
Yes, Arch, I think this the same study I read. It was extensive and the conclusion needs to be shouted from the rooftops.
.
For the Christian whipping boy … Maybe when you get to heaven you could explain to some of those kids why they died while you had your hands together, as did one of your fellow Christians who was praising the Lord for helping her find her car keys and for also securing her favorite parking spot at the supermarket.
Truly, why aren’t you ashamed and disgusted?
CONCLUSIONS:
Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.
Many Christians use amazing personal experiences of “miracles” as evidence of the existence of their god. The problem is—Mormons, Muslims, Hindus, and members of many other religions can make the very same “amazing” claims. Amazing coincidences even happen to atheists.
To demonstrate that prayers to Jesus are truly effective (other than the benefit of lowered pressure and heart rate as discussed above), Christians should be able to demonstrate that Christians have significantly lower accident rates and death rates than persons of other Faiths, and, that Christians have a significantly higher “recovery from illness” rates than persons of other Faiths. Can Christians provide such evidence? Let’s see, but I doubt it.
The initial intent of my comments was not to claim that being an atheist will give you better health and prolong your life. The initial intent of my comments were to demonstrate that there is no good evidence that prayers to a man who has been dead for 2,000 years are magically fulfilled by his invisible supernatural powers.
Dear Christians, if praying to dead people makes you feel better and improves your health, all power to you! But please stop telling the rest of us that if we do not submit to your superstitious belief system that we are in danger of unpleasant consequences at the hands of your dead prophet after we die.
Earlier in this thread I wrote: “From another perspective … I often ask why does god allow the sickness, the tragedy, the death to happen in the first place?”
I just read on Facebook about an explosion and fire south of where I live. Four people were critically injured. At last count, there were 33 people who had “commented” and said they were praying. I ask again … why doesn’t god prevent these type of tragedies from happening in the first place?
Obviously, he doesn’t, so my next question is what possible good are all the”prayers” going to do for the family involved? Is god going to take time out from his “heavenly” duties to heal all the injured and prevent their possible death?
When push comes to shove, the only value in prayers is to the person doing the praying.
UnkleE and others may cite “answers to prayers,” but they are minuscule in the big picture.
When push comes to shove, the only value in prayers is to the person doing the praying.
Exactly! It is all part of the self-delusion.
People like unklee claim to be unbiased and side with the ”experts” but in reality they enter every such discussion with their presuppositional beliefs firmly intact.
This is undeniable as the premise of the belief is that their god exists and is Jesus of Nazareth and therefore anything is possible.
The decision to become a Christian is based on emotion.
But why I am telling you this…. lol.. forgive me, Nan!
You will note that when I made my first comment to Gary I said:
“I’m not at all suggesting that all prayer is answered, or that these and the other studies offer proof of anything. But I am saying that the medical evidence is against what you have said, and I don’t think your statement is well based.”
That is what I have said all along. Gary’s original statement that there was no evidence was wrong – the evidence shows that. And it seems that you both agree now.
My reason for pointing this out is that christians don’t have a monopoly on people who make unjustified statements – the internet is also full of atheists making unjustified statements as if they were fact. It was worth pointing that out and correcting it.
And the example of a “failed” prayer study offered by Victoria via Arch is another example of the same. You would be amazed how many atheists offer up this study as the definitive answer, without (apparently) checking to see if other studies have been done. I have looked extensively at this question, and found 26 studies on the question, several of which were “meta studies”, summarising the results of further studies, making something like 60 studies over all.
I have summarised the 26 studies in Studies of intercessory prayer. The results are roughly 2:1 in favour of a positive effect. I don’t think these results “prove” anything about God, or even test anything much about God (they are not measuring prayer for divine healing as practiced by christians, they are measuring prayer as a therapy), but the number of studies demonstrates my point that unbelievers can easily fall into the error of not doing the research before they make statements, and/or only quoting the studies that fit their preconceived viewpoint.
So, I have certainly raised a hornets nest haven’t I? Quite a few contributions all looking like (to paraphrase Peter’s words):
“the faithless struggle to rationalize the disconnect between what naturalism says the life of the believer should be and the reality of what the experience of that life really is”
But it seems my rather forthright presentation of evidence, without making any claims beyond the facts, has still been too much for some readers, and I really don’t like to to generate ill-feeling, so I will cancel my subscription to this post and leave you all in peace. Thank you Nate for putting up with me, I appreciate it.
That is what I have said all along. Gary’s original statement that there was no evidence was wrong – the evidence shows that. And it seems that you both agree now.
Hi unkleE,
About this point in particular, we’d still disagree. Gary’s post said that there was zero evidence of “dramatically” different outcomes for religious people in these situations. You posted articles that talk about minor differences… but that’s not what Gary was talking about. So I don’t think you’ve overturned anything. The two of you were just talking about different things. And thanks for putting up with me, too. 😉
I was quite the prayer zealot before deconversion. Jesus was the absolute last thing I held unto in the faith. When I looked at how incredibly rude and violent he was in the Bible I just couldn’t take it anymore. More than that, I got tired of his lies. He said if you ask in his name you shall receive. It’s also mentioned in the New Testament that we should do even greater feats than what he did because he left us the holy spirit. This whole “yes, no or maybe” thing isn’t in the teachings of Jesus. Ask and it shall be given. Seek and ye shall find. Knock and the door shall be opened. One day I finally decided it was time to hold the savior of my salvation accountable to his own words. And that was the end for me.
Imagine meeting someone and having him or her tell you the following:
“My grandfather is the most incredible man who has ever lived! I can count on him for everything. If I need help at work, he always helps me. If I’m having relationship issues, I can always count on him to give me good counsel and support. If I’m ill, I talk to him and he helps me to get better. I talk to him before going to bed every night and before every meal.
My grandfather is the Creator of the Universe and has promised all those who pray and worship him that when they die, he will beam them up to his cosmic city on the edge of the most distant galaxy to live forever.
Would you like to know more about my grandfather?
You: Uhhh. How old is your grandfather?
Oh, he’s dead.
Observation: Scary, crazy nonsense, huh? Yet Christians are baffled when we skeptics don’t buy THEIR “my-dead-friend-is-God” story.
I just read on Facebook about an explosion and fire south of where I live. Four people were critically injured. At last count, there were 33 people who had “commented” and said they were praying. I ask again … why doesn’t god prevent these type of tragedies from happening in the first place?
Prayer: too little, too late.
(Lest anyone think me a hypocrite wrt tragedies and soapboxes: I don’t apply that rule of thumb to third parties.)
“I ask again … why doesn’t god prevent these type of tragedies from happening in the first place?”
Someone once said that thanking god for surviving a disaster in which others died, is like writing a thank-you letter to a serial killer for bypassing your house and slaughtering your neighbors instead.
“People like unklee claim to be unbiased and side with the ‘experts’ but in reality they enter every such discussion with their presuppositional beliefs firmly intact.”
Finding Truth 
Unkle E,
Here was my original claim: “If Christian prayer was really as effective as Christians claim it is, we should see dramatically lower illness, accident rates, and death rates among Christians compared to members of other Faiths (or no Faith) in the same society and social class. There is zero evidence that such a disparity exists.”
You have FAILED to disprove the majority of my statement and have only focused on the three words in parentheses. Yes, I agree with you, believing in an imaginary friend seems to convey some health benefits, but the name of that imaginary friend seems to be irrelevant. Christian prayer is no more effective than Muslim or Hindu prayer.
LikeLiked by 3 people
In a similar vein, I was told, on Colorstorm’s blog, that I could easily be the Bible’s god’s next convert – when I expressed doubt, it initiated the following conversation:
LikeLiked by 2 people
And to further your point, Gary, you did say “dramatically” different stats. And that’s just not the case. There are slight benefits in some studies, but as you said, they aren’t isolated to a single belief set. And some specific studies about prayer have indicated that it might sometimes do more harm than good.
LikeLiked by 1 person
NeuroNotes has lots of links on the ineffectiveness of prayer in the healing process, and I’ve emailed her to join in on this discussion, but I’ve yet to hear back from her.
LikeLike
” … the God of Jesus” ??? — unkleE
Thought they were one and the same.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Back in August when I was challenged about the truth of the Bible over on the Isaiah 53:5 blog I responded by listing a number of passages in the New Testament that suggest the the prayers of the faithful should be answered. I posed the question of whether these promises could be claimed to be honored.
That stored up a hornet’s nest which clearly angered the folk on that blog and after I was accused of taking the texts out of context I was eventually banned from the blog.
Looking back I realise I touched a raw nerve, that the faithful struggle to rationalize the disconnect between what the Bible says the life of the believer should be and the reality of what the experience of that life really is.
LikeLiked by 4 people
I read such a study this afternoon – http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?_r=4&
I was going to post the link earlier but we got hit by a rather violent lightning storm and all the power went out across half dozen suburbs.
What annoyed the crap out of me was reading the Templeton Foundation had spent 2.4 million on one study and worse ,the frakking US Guv’ment spent around 2 million!
For frak’s sake, that’s over 4 million dollars simply squandered for absolutely nothing.
Just imagine how many kids died of malnutrition while a bunch of half-wits pandered to some goddamned belief continually promoted by religious arseholes – some of whom pop up here on Word-Press.
Truly, It’s enough to make you gag, and such people should be thoroughly ashamed to even admit they put any stock in this horse manure.
LikeLiked by 2 people
LikeLiked by 1 person
They even have their own product line —
LikeLiked by 1 person
RE the “benefits” of prayer, Victoria was kind enough to share this with me —
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060403133554.htm
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Yes, Arch, I think this the same study I read. It was extensive and the conclusion needs to be shouted from the rooftops.
.
For the Christian whipping boy … Maybe when you get to heaven you could explain to some of those kids why they died while you had your hands together, as did one of your fellow Christians who was praising the Lord for helping her find her car keys and for also securing her favorite parking spot at the supermarket.
Truly, why aren’t you ashamed and disgusted?
CONCLUSIONS:
Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Many Christians use amazing personal experiences of “miracles” as evidence of the existence of their god. The problem is—Mormons, Muslims, Hindus, and members of many other religions can make the very same “amazing” claims. Amazing coincidences even happen to atheists.
To demonstrate that prayers to Jesus are truly effective (other than the benefit of lowered pressure and heart rate as discussed above), Christians should be able to demonstrate that Christians have significantly lower accident rates and death rates than persons of other Faiths, and, that Christians have a significantly higher “recovery from illness” rates than persons of other Faiths. Can Christians provide such evidence? Let’s see, but I doubt it.
The initial intent of my comments was not to claim that being an atheist will give you better health and prolong your life. The initial intent of my comments were to demonstrate that there is no good evidence that prayers to a man who has been dead for 2,000 years are magically fulfilled by his invisible supernatural powers.
Dear Christians, if praying to dead people makes you feel better and improves your health, all power to you! But please stop telling the rest of us that if we do not submit to your superstitious belief system that we are in danger of unpleasant consequences at the hands of your dead prophet after we die.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Earlier in this thread I wrote: “From another perspective … I often ask why does god allow the sickness, the tragedy, the death to happen in the first place?”
I just read on Facebook about an explosion and fire south of where I live. Four people were critically injured. At last count, there were 33 people who had “commented” and said they were praying. I ask again … why doesn’t god prevent these type of tragedies from happening in the first place?
Obviously, he doesn’t, so my next question is what possible good are all the”prayers” going to do for the family involved? Is god going to take time out from his “heavenly” duties to heal all the injured and prevent their possible death?
When push comes to shove, the only value in prayers is to the person doing the praying.
UnkleE and others may cite “answers to prayers,” but they are minuscule in the big picture.
LikeLiked by 4 people
Exactly! It is all part of the self-delusion.
People like unklee claim to be unbiased and side with the ”experts” but in reality they enter every such discussion with their presuppositional beliefs firmly intact.
This is undeniable as the premise of the belief is that their god exists and is Jesus of Nazareth and therefore anything is possible.
The decision to become a Christian is based on emotion.
But why I am telling you this…. lol.. forgive me, Nan!
LikeLiked by 3 people
Hi Nate, Gary,
You will note that when I made my first comment to Gary I said:
“I’m not at all suggesting that all prayer is answered, or that these and the other studies offer proof of anything. But I am saying that the medical evidence is against what you have said, and I don’t think your statement is well based.”
That is what I have said all along. Gary’s original statement that there was no evidence was wrong – the evidence shows that. And it seems that you both agree now.
My reason for pointing this out is that christians don’t have a monopoly on people who make unjustified statements – the internet is also full of atheists making unjustified statements as if they were fact. It was worth pointing that out and correcting it.
And the example of a “failed” prayer study offered by Victoria via Arch is another example of the same. You would be amazed how many atheists offer up this study as the definitive answer, without (apparently) checking to see if other studies have been done. I have looked extensively at this question, and found 26 studies on the question, several of which were “meta studies”, summarising the results of further studies, making something like 60 studies over all.
I have summarised the 26 studies in Studies of intercessory prayer. The results are roughly 2:1 in favour of a positive effect. I don’t think these results “prove” anything about God, or even test anything much about God (they are not measuring prayer for divine healing as practiced by christians, they are measuring prayer as a therapy), but the number of studies demonstrates my point that unbelievers can easily fall into the error of not doing the research before they make statements, and/or only quoting the studies that fit their preconceived viewpoint.
So, I have certainly raised a hornets nest haven’t I? Quite a few contributions all looking like (to paraphrase Peter’s words):
“the faithless struggle to rationalize the disconnect between what naturalism says the life of the believer should be and the reality of what the experience of that life really is”
But it seems my rather forthright presentation of evidence, without making any claims beyond the facts, has still been too much for some readers, and I really don’t like to to generate ill-feeling, so I will cancel my subscription to this post and leave you all in peace. Thank you Nate for putting up with me, I appreciate it.
LikeLike
Hi unkleE,
About this point in particular, we’d still disagree. Gary’s post said that there was zero evidence of “dramatically” different outcomes for religious people in these situations. You posted articles that talk about minor differences… but that’s not what Gary was talking about. So I don’t think you’ve overturned anything. The two of you were just talking about different things. And thanks for putting up with me, too. 😉
LikeLiked by 1 person
Peter,
I totally understand this.
I was quite the prayer zealot before deconversion. Jesus was the absolute last thing I held unto in the faith. When I looked at how incredibly rude and violent he was in the Bible I just couldn’t take it anymore. More than that, I got tired of his lies. He said if you ask in his name you shall receive. It’s also mentioned in the New Testament that we should do even greater feats than what he did because he left us the holy spirit. This whole “yes, no or maybe” thing isn’t in the teachings of Jesus. Ask and it shall be given. Seek and ye shall find. Knock and the door shall be opened. One day I finally decided it was time to hold the savior of my salvation accountable to his own words. And that was the end for me.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Imagine meeting someone and having him or her tell you the following:
“My grandfather is the most incredible man who has ever lived! I can count on him for everything. If I need help at work, he always helps me. If I’m having relationship issues, I can always count on him to give me good counsel and support. If I’m ill, I talk to him and he helps me to get better. I talk to him before going to bed every night and before every meal.
My grandfather is the Creator of the Universe and has promised all those who pray and worship him that when they die, he will beam them up to his cosmic city on the edge of the most distant galaxy to live forever.
Would you like to know more about my grandfather?
You: Uhhh. How old is your grandfather?
Oh, he’s dead.
Observation: Scary, crazy nonsense, huh? Yet Christians are baffled when we skeptics don’t buy THEIR “my-dead-friend-is-God” story.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Gary,
After adjusting for the time, money, worry, shame, etc. spent on the religious life, maybe you’ll break even, or come out ahead. 😉
LikeLiked by 1 person
Prayer: too little, too late.
(Lest anyone think me a hypocrite wrt tragedies and soapboxes: I don’t apply that rule of thumb to third parties.)
LikeLiked by 1 person
This is a brilliant line.
Excellent! Made me laugh out loud.
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“Yes, Arch, I think this the same study I read. It was extensive and the conclusion needs to be shouted from the rooftops.”
Would you mind ever so much doing that? I have a touch of vertigo —
LikeLiked by 3 people
“I ask again … why doesn’t god prevent these type of tragedies from happening in the first place?”
Someone once said that thanking god for surviving a disaster in which others died, is like writing a thank-you letter to a serial killer for bypassing your house and slaughtering your neighbors instead.
LikeLiked by 4 people
“People like unklee claim to be unbiased and side with the ‘experts’ but in reality they enter every such discussion with their presuppositional beliefs firmly intact.”
Plus, they cherry-pick their ”experts”.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“I really don’t like to to generate ill-feeling”
When did you get a personality transplant?
LikeLiked by 2 people