Lately I’ve been reading The Bittersweet End, and I’ve been quite engrossed in the way his story is unfolding. He began the blog as a place to gather his thoughts about a few doubts he was dealing with. Over the last year, he has moved further and further away from belief, until he now pretty much considers himself an atheist. He has just recently talked to his wife and his pastor about it (he’s still attending church), and it’s been very moving to hear about those experiences through his writing. It’s reminded me of my own de-conversion.
I started this blog almost 6 years ago. That’s a pretty good life for a blog — I don’t often run across any that are that old. In fact, it’s made it impractical for me to display my archives without a drop-down; it would just take up too much space. But it’s not like I’ve blogged constantly through all that time. In 2007, I went back to school and got a 2nd Bachelor’s degree. I didn’t complete it until December of 2008, so you’ll notice that I didn’t really blog anything that whole year. 2009 saw a little more activity, but barely. I only made 3 posts that year, and I posted nothing in 2010. So I essentially had a 3-year hiatus from this blog. What happened in the meantime to make my return in 2011 a complete reversal from my original approach?
Well, like I said, I was in school during 2008, plus I was still working full time and I had 2 young children. Blogging just had to take a back seat. But 2008 also saw Barack Obama’s historic election to President of the US. I’m a Democrat, and I have been for a long time. But living in the South and associating with conservative Christians, you tend to be inundated with Republican talking points. It’s not that I have anything against Republicans. I just sometimes have trouble understanding why conservative Christians identify with them so much right now. And during the 2008 election, that stood out to me more and more. I often heard my Christian friends (and I was a Christian too at this point) talk badly about efforts to provide universal health care, for instance. They were against abortion, yet they didn’t support welfare programs that would help take care of the mothers and babies once they’ve been born. I had trouble squaring that with what Jesus said here:
Then the righteous will answer him, saying, “Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?” And the King will answer them, “Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.”
– Matt 25:37-40
I felt that their position ran counter to Christian values. I was really bothered by that experience, but I wasn’t naive enough to blame Christianity itself when these were just faults in its adherents. However, I was part of a denomination known as the church of Christ. They believe they are the one true church that Christ established on the Day of Pentecost. Since the CoC thinks it’s the one true example of Christianity in the world, they believe that virtually everyone else is going to Hell. By the time 2008 rolled around, I no longer agreed with them on that. But I still thought God had a high standard set for salvation, and I still believed in a literal Hell. So when I saw how the group of Christians that claimed to follow Christ more closely than anyone seemed more concerned with keeping their taxes low than with helping those less fortunate, it became hard to rationalize how they could be on God’s good side. It was also hard to see how the “heretics and heathens” that did try to help the less fortunate could be going to Hell.
And it didn’t stop with social issues. Members of the CoC are often known for their extensive Bible knowledge. That’s admirable. But there were still many in the congregations who obviously didn’t think deeply about their beliefs or doctrines. Many of them had just been raised in the church and didn’t seem to know very much about why they believed what they believed. Of course, that’s a common problem in any denomination. But since the CoC takes the position that others will go to Hell for not understanding Christianity more perfectly, what would happen with those casual members in the CoC? Would they be found acceptable just because they were in the right version of Christianity? If so, isn’t that unfair to all the other casual members of any other denomination? And if the CoC is really the one right version of Christianity, but its casual members aren’t saved, then just imagine how small the number of saved will be.
In early May of 2008, the country of Myanmar (or Burma) was devastated by a tsunami. Over 138,000 people died. I was really bothered by that event. Myanmar is a very poor country, and almost 90% of the population is Buddhist. According to my Christian beliefs, almost every one of those 138,000 people went to Hell, after living in poverty and dying in a horrific manner. Why would God allow that?
My thought processes during this time showed me that according to my beliefs, the vast, vast majority of people who had ever lived were going to Hell. That’s a pretty bleak picture. Surely God wouldn’t be okay with that scenario. So I began studying about Hell to see if I had misunderstood what the Bible said about it.
I’ll talk more about that in the next post.
Finding Truth 
There is only one single point to understand, which is ironically, a lie.
A Christian must accept that Jesus is God but to understand Christianity means to recognize that this is a lie.
LikeLike
Ark,
Understanding Christianity is very difficult and is not something everyone can do. Misunderstanding Christianity, on the other hand, is very, very easy and there are billions who do it — many of whom host blogs that enable them to easily spread their misunderstandings to others.
Jesus was a man, an ordinary man like any other man. Theologians use the phrase “true man” to indicate that Jesus had no special powers or abilities or feelings or knowledge that would place him outside the boundaries of ordinary human capacity. You yourself, in an earlier comment, quoted Mark 10, 18: “Jesus answered him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”
You understand that Jesus is a man — and you understand truly and it is good for you to hold on to this truth and not be deceived by the thought that there was anything about Jesus that equipped him with super-powers. He, like all men, lived a life of dependence upon God.
You understand truly; but you do not understand the Mystery of the Incarnation. Very few understand it. The Incarnation is to Theology what subatomic particles are to physics. Only a very few people, for example, really understand anything about the Higgs Boson; but those who do understand attempt to give analogies and tell stories to give the rest of us a glimpse of understanding — but even those glimpses evaporate under close inspection.
The good thing is, though, a person can lead a completely productive and fulfilling life without ever knowing anything about the Higgs Boson beyond the crude fantasies and fables that “real physicists” tell those of us who are incapable of truly comprehending. The other good thing is that you can lead a completely productive and fulfilling life without ever knowing anything about the Incarnation that isn’t self-contradictory. No problem.
I say this over and again — we place too much emphasis on understanding Christianity and not enough on practicing it. In a misguided attempt to understand concepts beyond their comprehension, Christians have generated all sorts of silly and foggy notions that have confused dull minds and repulsed sharp ones.
One needs only understand a teensy weensy bit of Christianity in order to begin practicing it. We ought to accept that understanding will only begin after a sufficient amount of practice; instead, we insist on a acquiring a sufficient amount of understanding before we’re willing to begin practicing.
You’re not rejecting Christianity — you’re rejecting bad practices.
Peace,
Paul
LikeLike
@Captain
Sorry, have to disagree. If Jesus was only a man, and there was nothing supernatural about him, then Christianity is nothing but a philosophy (at best), and the ravings of a madman at worst. Either way, Christianity, as far as a system of beliefs to live by, quite frankly, sucks. 2000 years of tradition did not misunderstand this key point.
I have a few opinions about Ark (and I don’t give a damn what his response is because of those opinions) but I would never accuse of him of misconstruing what he is rejecting. He, the author of this blog, and other commentators on this blog, may have some misunderstandings, but they are all quite theologically adept.
LikeLike
@ Paul.
Absolute utter hogwash. There is nothing to understand about incarnation. This again is a church narrative construct.
You have stated that you believe Jesus is the christian god and now you come with this bunkum that even someone as wackadoodle as Don is wont to wade in and say that you are out of the park.
The crap you espouse is enough to confuse a William Lane Craig Groupie on a good day.
You believe Jesus is your god. Just like Don, just like every Christian. Period .Finito. There is not need to worry or concern your self with anything else but this.
If you are trying to philosophize something else out of this for any reason…don’t bother. It has been done to death by the likes of Aquinas and his ilk.
So, To reiterate
A Christian must accept that Jesus is God but to understand Christianity means to recognize that this is a lie.
Accept it or don’t. It wont alter the fact that it is the truth.
LikeLike
@ Don
”I have a few opinions about Ark (and I don’t give a damn what his response is because of those opinions)”
You believe in a lie and follow a doctrine based upon this lie.
You are a Christian and while you remain one your opinion regarding anything about me in these matters is less than worthless.
LikeLike
I think humans have an inherent desire to categorise and organise. After all, generally speaking, we are pattern seekers. For many months now I have tried to deconstruct faith, but this only accomplished a move away from faith.
I think deconstruction is useful, but to deconstruct faith is moving away from faith and focusing on something entirely different. Like the separating of a language, those words that do actually hold insight are deconstructed to symbols, mere lines and shapes in isolation.
Aren’t words merely just a pattern of shapes, arranged in patterns, that have collective meaning attached to them? But I believe words represent something far more valuable than this.
Words are an extension of our language, of our values. Words assist us in understanding truth. Words are shapes turned into symbols; but they represent something as point of reference, where value can be attached to them.
In contrast, like deconstructing a painting, separating and focusing on one single brushstroke at a time, takes away from the overall meaning of the picture. If there is any true truth and value to be understood, the process of deconstruction strips this value as it attempts to fragment a whole. This turns a picture into a thousand lines of paint, missing the picture.
From this perspective a picture cannot be understood. In contrast, I believe faith cannot be understood through deconstruction. It is then no longer faith you are looking at.
It is about perspective I believe, we cannot reflect on both the picture and a single stroke at the same time. If there is any genuine truth to be found in a written account, or a painting, then it is missed in critical debate because the value is not understandable in isolation, without practice.
I believe humanity shouldn’t forcefully dictate how or where other human’s beings place their meaning or value. That is between each person and God.
I am tired of going around in circles, it is not productive and I ask myself, does this really help anyone? I am tired of trying to deconstruct divinity. I fear I will waste my life in this loop if I don’t stop.
For me, this deconstruction is based on a fear I have of not knowing, of not being sure and of not being in control. From a Christian perspective, there is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment (1 John 4:18).
I think the biggest and scariest question is a question of trust. Do I trust God is love, do I trust there is a big picture?
I don’t want to deconstruct faith anymore; I believe I need to follow it, to see where it leads.
Kind regards, Ryan
LikeLike
Ryan, that was a very profound and well-expressed reflection! Thanks for sharing your thoughts. (You have been asking a lot of questions, and I have often wondered where you were at.)
Experiencing things from the outside and from the inside are two very different things. We can assess belief in God from the outside, via the philosophical “proofs” and other evidence, but we can also assess christian belief by living it and seeing if it works. Both methods tell us something, but they are different things.
I wish you well in trying a different approach. Best wishes, and thanks.
LikeLike
”I don’t want to deconstruct faith anymore; I believe I need to follow it, to see where it leads.”
Ah..sigh…How does that song go? Another One Bites the Dust.
Never mind,…Crispyuns are always falling off the wagon.
Eventually there will be no wagon to fall off of.
Plenty of time….;)
LikeLike
Hi Ryan,
It’s good to hear from you, and like unkleE, I’ve often wondered lately where you were in your thought process.
I like the way you illustrated the deconstruction process that often happens when we put faith under scrutiny. The “not knowing” is really difficult — and it’s the main thing I struggled with too.
I’m not sure if it’s helpful to you, but I got a lot of comfort from this idea: if the God of Christianity is real, then we can trust the promise of Matthew 7 that says “seek and you shall find.” You and I are seekers, and I think that means we have nothing to fear. We’ve each come to our opinions honestly, and as long as we always try to keep open minds and find truth, we’re doing exactly what we should be doing. If a more deistic god exists, then he’s probably a pretty decent guy that would also appreciate truth-seekers. If no god exists, then we really have nothing to worry about anyway. In the end, it all comes down to this quote, for me:
And if you want something even easier to remember, you can take this gem from Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure:
🙂
LikeLike
I figure if focusing on Christ compels to focus more on others than myself, and actively care and serve then how is this not valuable and true?
If faith in Jesus teaches me to (1) not judge, that (2) the measure I give will be the measure I get back, to (3) treat others as masterpieces of God, (4) that sacrifice and service are necessary in love.
In our existence, what is more real and more effective than this? What is more valuable than this focus?
One of the most frustrating things for me is that I am inconsistent in this focus, and I have no one to blame but myself for compromising these values through my actions. But this is no reason for giving up and beating myself up. I figure if I keep my focus on Jesus and His teachings then these inconsistencies will become less and less frequent. I think a lot of our actions stem from where we place our focus.
Ultimately, I just want to be a consistent and kind person who effectively cares for people I have the privilege to meet. In those times I have focused on Christs teachings and followed through faith I have found that I have been far more practical and effective in doing this.
Arkenaten – What are Crispyuns? 🙂
UnkleE- Thanks for your feedback. I appreciate those posts as well, I’ll refer back to a few of them, and they are really well written and informative.
Nate – I really love reading about Marcus Aurelius, he seemed like a real man of integrity. I have started to read his Meditations, actually for a short time considered becoming a stoic 🙂 I think there is a lot of value in it as a way of living, although I do branch off from the Ancients understanding of Pantheism. I think Stoicism is quite misunderstood as a philosophy in today’s world.
Thanks to all three of you for continuing to challenge and inform me through discussions and comments. Hope you all have a really productive and safe week.
All the best, Ryan
LikeLike
Nate: Just curious……
Do you think your change of mind had anything to do with your being raised in the CoC? I was sent there as a kid, but stopped going at about 12. God changed me when I was 25 at an independent bible church. Since then I’ve studied various groups a bit, including CoC, and known a few folks that go there. Since, as you know, they don’t have a doctrinal statement, there are some variations between the churches, but since all the leaders go to the same schools they tend to think similarly. They are rather legalistic, and teach a heavy emphasis on obedience to please God. Yours didn’t happen to be connected with Boston, did it?
I knew one lady who was raised CoC and ended up in a large frustration, thinking she’d lose her salvation every time she sinned. Plus, I’ve never seen one who had any emphasis on the work of the Holy Spirit at all. Just curious if the emphasis on obedience affected your current views.
LikeLike
Hi humblesmith,
Thanks for the question. Yes, I do think the fact that I was raised in the CoC had a lot to do with my leaving Christianity. I’ve always been a bit of a freethinker — my parents taught me that I shouldn’t just accept whatever I heard from teachers and preachers, but should check everything against the Bible. So over my time in the church, there were several doctrines that I eventually disagreed with them on. And yes, I think their legalism is problematic. In most of the congregations I’ve had dealings with, they have some consistency issues in which rules should be bound and which ones are simply a matter of conscience. And yes, they believed in the Holy Spirit, but weren’t very clear in what it did in this day and age.
The version of the CoC I was raised in wasn’t involved with Boston, that I know of. Each congregation was independent. We observed the Lord’s Supper each Sunday, we sang a capella, we believed baptism by immersion was necessary for salvation, we did not support orphan’s homes or schools (at least not with the treasury), and we didn’t have a fellowship hall. We also didn’t believe in once saved always saved. Hopefully that gives you an idea of which branch I was associated with.
The main reason I think it moved me away from Christianity is that the CoC really emphasizes going back to the Bible for everything. I think that’s pretty admirable, considering it’s the basis for Christianity. But that eventually led me into studying the textual discrepancies and prophecy fulfillment issues. I just reached a point where I could no longer believe it was actually divinely inspired. That’s probably a conclusion I would have reached much earlier, but I just wasn’t aware that there were any issues in those areas. I didn’t know anyone who didn’t believe in God and the Bible, so I never had cause to research anything beyond doctrinal issues.
So I think my loss of faith had much more to do with focus on scripture, not really anything about the emphasis on obedience.
Thanks again for the comments today. It’s late — I’m gonna crash. Have a good night. 🙂
LikeLike
I was sent to CoC from a small child until I didn’t want to go anymore at about 12 or 13. So I was a “nothing” until 25 when I was saved. After that I researched groups and churches and denominations, what separated them and why. So I’m familiar with what the CoC teaches and how it functions. The Boston group is especially legalistic. The teachings you describe are pretty well mainstream CoC.
One big issue with CoC is they don’t believe in summarizing what they believe into a doctrinal statement or statements of belief. As you say, they try to refer to the Bible for everything. Which is fine, except that I’ve found CoC is especially poor at discerning between what is a major issue and what is a minor one. Hence they’ve had a myriad splits over everything imaginable…..musical instruments, what to call the minister……(ever hear of the “one cuppers”?)
Different Christian groups have very different views of the Bible. The mainstream, main-branch denominations have generally taken the position that we can pick and choose what we think is inspired and reject what we don’t like. They take a very different approach than conservative groups like CoC. I just didn’t know if you’d ever explored them.
As for prophesy, have you seen “Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophesy” By Barton Payne? It was referred to me as excellent, but I haven’t read it yet. It supposedly deals with all the issues, but as I said, I haven’t gotten around to reading it yet.
LikeLike
That’s really interesting — thanks for sharing more of your back story. From my experiences, you’ve absolutely nailed the CoC. And yes, I’ve even heard of the “one-cuppers.” 🙂 The funny thing about the CoC is that even though they don’t supposedly have a “creed,” and they don’t put out anything that lists their particular beliefs, most of the congregations I’ve been to have tons of tracts available in the lobby that pretty much perform the same function. One of the things that really got to me as I god older was the hypocrisy that was often exhibited when they criticized other sects of Christianity for things they were also guilty of, but just didn’t realize.
I have looked into some other brands of Christianity, but my whole disillusionment ended up coming from the Bible itself. I just got to a point where I couldn’t believe any of it anymore.
And I haven’t heard of the book you mention — I’ll add it to my Amazon list and try to pick it up soon.
Thanks again!
LikeLike
Sorry, but the CoC cannot be the One True Church…b/c the CoG is the One True Church! The Church of God! lol…I grew up a member of one of the now hundreds of CoG denominations, the Philadelphia Church of God (in Oklahoma City, not Pennsylvania). We also had a strong emphasis on KNOWLEDGE, and of course our interpretation of scripture was not an interpretation–it was letting the Bible interpret the Bible!
We never had Hell. When you were dead you were dead, and all those (like the poor 138K who died on Myanmar) who died w/o knowing The Truth (R) would be raised up in a 2nd Resurrection just after the Millennium and given a chance to learn God’s Way and repent. That delayed me figuring out it was all a load of rubbish b/c it made God sound infinitely more Just and Loving than the god of all those False Christians who misinterpret the bible and claim an everlasting Hell Fire.
LOL.
LikeLike
Hey Nate! This is Amanda Dodson Gremillion. I lost touch with you guys and haven’t seen you in years unfortunately but found this blog again through mutual friends. Ironically I debated on here with you years ago as a fellow Christian of a different denomination with some different beliefs than you and now I actually agree with the views on some things you shared years ago I used to debate with you about and now you no longer do. Since we last talked years ago my husband got saved and started going to church with me some. Right before this however I almost became an atheist myself after going through really bad postpartum depression because around the time I had a baby I also lost my father and grandfather and was laid off from my job, had severe back pain and my husband eventually left me. Obviously he eventually came back and got saved and started going to church with me like I said before but it took a lot to get that 16 year prayer answered along with a lot of religious answers I had been seeking for a long time which resulted in me going back to church and getting closer to God than ever before. A lot like the story of Job in a lot of ways. I am not on here to debate or try and change your mind because I don’t agree with your new views of course I did not agree with your old ones either and truth for me has been in the middle, but I hope these new beliefs are just another journey to you finding all the answers you seek and I am praying for you because of my own beliefs. I have learned over the years that people’s beliefs do not change based on online debates, lol, it takes life experience and things happening personally with God and Jay and i have seen a lot of that recently in our lives, too much too agree with your current beliefs (although I agree with some if it I guess, I do believe in Evolution or parts of it anyways and believe in God at the same time). However, if you guys ever want to get together for dinner or any reason please let me know we would love to see you guys! We are always here as friends regardless of any of our religious beliefs.
LikeLike
Hey Amanda,
It’s great to hear from you! I’m really sorry to hear about all the difficult things you went through a while back — I had no idea any of that was going on. Of course, I’m very glad to hear that things are much better now with you and Jay (tell him I said hi!).
I appreciate your weighing in on this post, and I definitely remember the religious discussions we used to have. Yeah, I’ve pretty much gone 180 degrees from those days. 🙂
Anyway, feel free to comment on here any time, if you like. It was really good to hear from you, and maybe we can all get together sometime this summer.
Take care!
Nate
LikeLike
We would love to see you guys if you will email me amandalgremillion@gmail.com we can swap phone numbers etc if you want because you guys don’t have a facebook do you? And I might add some comments on here once I get a chance to read more. I said I wouldn’t debate but sometimes it is hard for me to resist lol we all went too long without talking to each other because apparently a lot has happened in all of our lives. Miss you guys!
LikeLike
Sounds great — I’ll shoot you an email soon. 🙂
LikeLike
I can only said when 1/3 of the angel rebel in heaven, there is a lot of war going on in the heavenlies, but eventually all that rebellion will stop. you read about the war in Dan 10:13 too. Then you will find you are on that wrong side of the equation. God Bless you! I pray you find your way home and don’t get lost and misled. Matthew 7:13
LikeLike
a lot of war in heaven. makes one wonder how long fallible man will last in heaven before he is cast out… that is if god still allows man to have “freewill” in heaven.
LikeLike
It’s amazing how similar the CoC’s self appointed salvation and the UPC I grew up with are. Alpha humans controlling the weak minded. Thanks be to God he gave us a mind to reason his non-existence. 🙂
LikeLike
That got a big laugh out of me, Mark! Thanks for the comment 🙂
LikeLike
A copy Mark Monroe’s comment, as well as Nate’s response, ended up in my email box the other day and has drawn my attention back to this comment thread. That’s the reason I’m here again. I had actually forgotten the fact that I commented back in March.
Today, when I re-read what I’d written back then and read the responses to my comments (I’d forgotten it all) I felt really discouraged. I’ve long been looking for a website that will give me a chance to discuss philosophy with atheists — mostly because I think you guys are a lot closer to the truth than most folks who identify themselves as Christians — and I haven’t ever found a welcome. I certainly didn’t find a welcome here in March.
What generally happens when I get involved in these threads is that I’ll respond to somebody who says something along the lines of, “Christians believe thus-and-thus which is ridiculous, or hypocritical, or just gives them an excuse to behave like complete beasts so I reject religion completely and that’s why I’m an atheist.”
Almost always — check that, ALWAYS — the belief that provoked their ‘de-conversion’ is a belief I reject entirely. When I point that out, I’m told, by you guys, that I’m not really a Christian — that atheists really, really understand Christianity and that I misunderstand it. Sometimes I’m even accused of believing things that I don’t believe at all — things I find totally appalling.
Here’s one I hear all the time from atheists: “Christianity is based on the Bible.” That’s not only wrong, it’s powerfully and explosively wrong! You guys supposedly believe in logic but saying that Christianity is based on the Bible is OBVIOUSLY illogical. Christianity was a going concern for twenty five years before the first book of the Christian Scriptures was even written. Your false assertion that my religion is based on the Bible implies that, at least at the start, Christianity was based on a book that DIDN’T EVEN EXIST. How illogical is that???
In addition, Christians didn’t even agree on what the Bible is until it had been around for nearly three centuries. Even then, the Christians themselves weren’t pushing for a scriptural canon — Constantine was the one who insisted on having an “authorized” New Testament. Read your history!! Somehow, someway, people must have been practicing Christianity without the Bible for a dozen generations. And yet you say that Christianity is based on the Bible. When I tell you that’s wrong, you tell me I’m not a Christian. Whether I’m a Christian or not, all I have to be is a person with a brain in my head to know you’re all wrong when you say that Christianity is based on the Bible.
Somebody please give me a reasonable response to my reasonable argument.
Paul
LikeLike
Hi Paul!
I’m very sorry you didn’t get a good reception here back in March. I really try to keep my blog an open place where people of all beliefs can discuss things with mutual respect. However, another goal of mine is to avoid censorship as much as possible, which is why I don’t moderate (or remove) comments. Sometimes those two goals compete with each other, so I’m sorry if you were caught in the crossfire.
Christianity is a complex topic. I came from a faith tradition that was very much based on the Bible, as I suppose most Protestant sects are. It’s true that we shouldn’t say “real” Christianity is only based on the Bible, but I also think it would be incorrect to go to the opposite extreme. Some versions of Christianity are based on the Bible; others are not.
But that said, I’d think the Bible is still very important. Before it was assembled, Christianity spread mostly through word of mouth, or through the influence of individual writings. But in the last 1600 years or so, the teachings of Christianity have been very closely linked to the Bible, haven’t they? It seems to me that it’s hard to talk about Christianity without getting around to the Bible. Out of curiosity, how do you get your particular beliefs?
Thanks, and I hope you’ll come by whenever you can! Hopefully, you’ll have a better experience going forward (in other words, Ark, play nice!). 🙂
LikeLike