This post is not going to be in the standard format. Instead of laying out what I think about a particular issue and then possibly getting into a discussion afterward, I really just want to ask a series of questions that I hope readers will answer in the comment section.
My background with Christianity is with a very fundamentalist variety that believes faith, grace, and works are all tightly woven together — each plays a necessary part in salvation. I’m much less familiar with more liberal versions of Christianity, and that’s what I’m hoping to learn more about in this discussion. So here are my questions:
- The New Testament speaks a lot about salvation. What exactly are Christians being saved from?
- In a similar vein, are non-Christians bound for a different fate than Christians? What will the afterlife be like for each?
- What does God/Jesus expect from us? Anything?
- Of what value are works? Is baptism a work? If so, then is faith also a work?
- What’s the relationship between faith, grace, and works?
I’ve numbered these for ease of reference, but please answer any or all of them in whatever way you like. Or if some of them are bad questions, let me know that too. It’s time to witness, folks! 🙂
Finding Truth 
I forgot, Nan. I can’t use figures of speech here 🙂
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“He that says unto me Lord, Lord shall not enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my father which is in heaven” – Matt7:21
there are others like this. James says, “…faith without works is dead…” not to mention the countless examples of people who had to do things to be acceptable to god in both the OT and NT.
You say that it’s clear because of passages like “god is not the author of confusion”, etc. It’s a emperor’s new clothes indoctrination. The bible’s message isnt clear. Sure, for you, to see it your way, I guess you could say that’s clear. But all you have to do is look around you. How many flavors of christianity are there? The bible clearly says you have to do stuff (more than faith) to be acceptable to god, yet you clearly just said how clear it was that god expects nothing of us.
And I wont even get into why your reasoning is flawed regarding the uniqueness of the christian ethic, but i will point out how christianity matches all other religions. It was written by man. These human authors said they are speakers for god. Said there were miracles proving it, but do not offer any today. They say that only the pure and honest heart will accept it. men who wrote flaws, bogus prophecies, errors, contradictions, and atrocities and pawned it off to the masses with fear, the promise of mansions and riches in the afterlife, and to some with the promise of enlightenment or heavenly wisdom.
If you have a bucket with holes in it, eventually you’d get tired of placing in makeshift patches and just get a new bucket that doesnt have holes – or at the very least a bucket that has smaller holes.
But your response is exactly the type I was criticizing earlier – and no offense intended, but it’s true. Just LOOK. Your response doesnt hold water and neither do the claims of the biblical authors.
Josh, my man, if if we had a animal in front of us that loved the water, which had feathers, webbed feet and a beak, i’d say it were a duck. But you’d swear it was a platypus.
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”But, there is none that teaches the character and love of God the way Christianity does. ”
This is part of the Triune that John talks about is it? ”The Word”.
The Word that was before everything and then flooded the whole earth because he got seriously pissed off with ‘His’ Creation? Talk about anger management issues. Sheesh. This is the god you worship right?
This is the same ‘god’ that insisted that his OWN SON be put to death for YOUR sins (not mine..I, hasten to add as I have NOTHING to do with religion) in the most barbaric way?
Why couldn’t Jesus merely have died of measles?
I truly am not sure who is worse, the clearly round the bend Fundamentalist or the likes of you who ”think” they embrace some science but then spew polemic.
There is no reasoning with someone who never answers the questions put to him other than in an oblique and noncommittal way and who then goes all fundamentalist.
With every comment you demonstrate to all on this blog that you are as ill informed and intractable as your Kentucky brethren.
I will say a silent ‘prayer’ for your kids. May Thor and Zeus protect them from insanity.
Silly person.
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@Josh, “The trouble I have with this teaching, and you can disagree if you want, is that we are not really any better than we ever have been as people.”
I couldn’t agree more Josh ! For 2000 years Christians in reality have behaved no better than adherents to any other religion or atheists.
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This is the god we are required to worship?
John Zande’s post is not for the faint-hearted. However, if you are in any way religious
you will probably love it.
http://thesuperstitiousnakedape.wordpress.com/2013/07/27/educating-christians-lesson-1-abortion-your-god-loves-it/
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What did Jesus teach ? The average person wouldn’t know for sure as they weren’t allowed to read the Bible for hundreds of years. Why ? What was the Church afraid of ?
Decree of the Council of Toulouse (1229 C.E.): “We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.”
Ruling of the Council of Tarragona of 1234 C.E.: “No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned…”
Proclamations at the Ecumenical Council of Constance in 1415 C.E.: Oxford professor, and theologian John Wycliffe, was the first (1380 C.E.) to translate the New Testament into English to “…helpeth Christian men to study the Gospel in that tongue in which they know best Christ’s sentence.” For this “heresy” Wycliffe was posthumously condemned by Arundel, the archbishop of Canterbury. By the Council’s decree “Wycliffe’s bones were exhumed and publicly burned and the ashes were thrown into the Swift River.”
Fate of William Tyndale in 1536 C.E.: William Tyndale was burned at the stake for translating the Bible into English. According to Tyndale, the Church forbid owning or reading the Bible to control and restrict the teachings and to enhance their own power and importance.
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Sorry this turned into a bit of an essay. Although I no longer identify as Christian I once did. In reality my beliefs were always liberal, I was never inclined to take the bible literally, however, then, as now I believed that like all holy books it has a lot to teach us if we open our minds and look beyond the obvious. So here is the ramblings of a once liberal Christian.
1. The New Testament speaks a lot about salvation. What exactly are Christians being saved from?
Death. Not necessarily literal death. By death I mean not living, mindlessly doing what we always did and believing the same thing with out applying reason, because someone somewhere along the line told us it what we should do an believe and we are too afraid to question or challenge this assertion. If we open our mind to what Christ has to teach us then we will be saved from this living death to live a rich and full life here and now and by virtue of that enrich the life of others.
2. In a similar vein, are non-Christians bound for a different fate than Christians? What will the afterlife be like for each?
It is my belief that what Jesus taught us referred only to this life not the next, when he talks of death and the after life he was speaking metaphorically. He was guiding us to learn to live fully here and now, using concepts that are universally identified with, not preparing us for some afterlife that we in reality have no guarantee exists. But then I do not believe that Jesus is the literal son of a god as in a god incarnate, again I don’t believe when he refers to himself as the son of God he means anything more than he is a human created and sustained by a god. It is this life that matters here and now, if we live a mindful, compassionate life and by virtue of this a fulfilled happy life, which enriches the lives of others, then the afterlife if it exists is a bonus and will take care of itself. I don’t know if an afterlife exists or not, if it does then I doubt it will be different for Christians and non-Christians by virtue of the beliefs they hold. I suspect it would be different for each individual, as this life is different for each individual, based on their individual attitude, belief and actions. Someone who is mindful and positive will see the good and positive and take opportunities when they arise, those who a wrapped in dogmatic beliefs will live in fear that if they and their loved ones don’t do exactly as they should according to what someone told them they should then something bad will happen, just as they do here etc
3. What does God/Jesus expect from us? Anything?
God/Jesus expects us to engage and embrace the ability they gave us to think critically and reasonably to reach our full potential (which will be different for every individual). To be mindful and fully present in this life. If we are mindful and fully present and thinking rationally and reasonably then when we see others in pain be that physical, emotional or spiritual then the only action available to us is that of compassion. If I see someone who is in spiritual pain and I try to convince them (think convert or save) of my own beliefs this isn’t a mindful or compassionate act. This is a defense to protect myself from fully seeing and engaging with their pain, an attempt to avoid the risk of making myself vulnerable to that same pain, its easier to preach than to accept and be with the as they are. If I am mindful and compassionate then I can be fully present with the person, whilst remaining aware of my own fears and vulnerabilities, without the need to turn away from or protect myself from the pain or situation. This allows me to provide support and comfort to the person in pain to allow them to find their own solution which may be very different to my solution, and that just fine. Being fully present is scary, painful and difficult. But doing so allows me to become self aware, comfortable with who I am and find real peace. It is also the only way to foster true compassion for others and hence help them.
4. Of what value are works? Is baptism a work? If so, then is faith also a work?
Faith isn’t a work, faith is an innate human experience, we all have faith in something at some time. I have faith that the sun will rise in the morning, I have faith that one day I will die. Ok simplistic I know, I also have faith in my gods and goddesses as may others have faith in theirs. Having faith in Christ/God is simply an extension of this natural emotional state. Perhaps it is a gift but it is a gift we are all born with, sometimes life leaves us cynical and when that happens we have a choice to turn our backs on faith or re-embrace it. As it is a natural human experience it is harder to fight against faith and as such this makes us unhappy. When we allow ourselves to have faith in what ever form that may take, perhaps its just in the innate goodness of human nature then we become more balance and peaceful. In this respect this has nothing to do with works. However, being mindful, present and peaceful is easier when we embrace faith then we naturally act out of compassion to help those in pain. Helping those in pain does not include dictating what they should or shouldn’t do or believe it is helping them to find their own way. This is the value of works they empower others to find their own peace and fulfillment in this life to escape their living death. Those who have blind faith who dictate what other must do or feel only harm others they may believe they are doing gods work but this isn’t the case its idea that the road to hell is paved with good intentions (hell being a mindless, fearful living death).
5. What’s the relationship between faith, grace, and works?
Faith is an innate and universal human experience, we can embrace it or turn our backs on it, we can apply it rigidly and narrowly or broadly and openly. If we have faith, not dogmatic belief, then we are able to learn to be more mindful and by virtue of this more compassionate. If we are truly compassionate then we are able to do good works. We are open to the joys life has to offer and as such live in a state of grace.
I can’t back this up with verse, once maybe I could, but not now. In all honesty I never was inclined to, because I always believed that quoting single verses out of context was a sure way to lose the meaning of the story being told. I read any religious book or text with intent to understand the meaning that applies to me as an individual and how this can guide me to live a better life here and now, I am always aware that this will not necessarily apply to others.
If you got to the end thanks for reading.
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Arkenaten I find your views equally fundamentalist and narrow minded as those you accuse. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, after all. Science can not prove the existence of god, that is not possible, nor does it need to be because belief in god is a mater of faith not science. Science and religion don’t mix, not because they in anyway contradict each other, but simply because they answer different questions. You try to make religion fit into science and when it doesn’t go claim religion is wrong, why is this any different to those religious zealots who try to make science fit into their beliefs and when it doesn’t fit claiming science is wrong. I am an ex Christian, agnostic polytheist (if you want to know what I mean by that feel free to visit my blog) I am also have a bachelors degree in physics. Go figure!
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1. religion ( and in this case in particular, Christianity) is wrong as its basic premise is based on supernatural claims, and erroneous text.
The onus is always on the one who makes the original claim.
2.”Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, after all. ”
Oh dear…oh well, here goes…
There is no evidence of Moses or the Exodus, or the conquest of Canaan. However pretty much all archaeologists and several top Rabbis, recognise this as proof enough that the Exodus did not happen and Moses was a fictional character.
if you want to take this up with Messrs. Finkelstein and Herzog, et al be my guest.
I despise Smart Alecs. Especially those who try to use clever arguments in the form of pseudo philosophy to justify their claims. You are not really that clever, my friend.
Religion is quite simply a crock. Ask the blog host.Or better still, do him the courtesy of reading his story.
Any defense is unfounded and those that try to defend it are fools.
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“Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned !” Anonymous
Ark, I read this tonight from a book by Daniel C Dennett titled, “Breaking the Spell” It is about deconversion. Very enlightening.
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How true is that!
Liked your post on the Councils ans the reading of the bible in days of Yore.
Christians are wont to blithely wave away such periods as ‘Oh, that’s ‘History’, we’re not like that NOW.”
Lol….
They need to look around.
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Josh, I am interested in your opinion about Nate’s comment on Hebrew 10:26-31,
“For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
– vs 26-31
??
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