This post is not going to be in the standard format. Instead of laying out what I think about a particular issue and then possibly getting into a discussion afterward, I really just want to ask a series of questions that I hope readers will answer in the comment section.
My background with Christianity is with a very fundamentalist variety that believes faith, grace, and works are all tightly woven together — each plays a necessary part in salvation. I’m much less familiar with more liberal versions of Christianity, and that’s what I’m hoping to learn more about in this discussion. So here are my questions:
- The New Testament speaks a lot about salvation. What exactly are Christians being saved from?
- In a similar vein, are non-Christians bound for a different fate than Christians? What will the afterlife be like for each?
- What does God/Jesus expect from us? Anything?
- Of what value are works? Is baptism a work? If so, then is faith also a work?
- What’s the relationship between faith, grace, and works?
I’ve numbered these for ease of reference, but please answer any or all of them in whatever way you like. Or if some of them are bad questions, let me know that too. It’s time to witness, folks! 🙂
Finding Truth 
Thanks Josh for your honesty! I can only speak for myself, but I have never intentionally been a Christian Basher . I was one for over 40 years (a Christian not basher). 🙂
I continue to read about Christianity even though I am no longer a believer. Why ? To better understand why Christians continue to believe and why I no longer do.
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Those of you who follow this blog know that I rarely get into the heat of the discussion. I prefer to remain on the sidelines and learn, but sometimes throwing out a remark here and there. Another big reason I don’t add much is because Nate, kcchief1, and Howie put things much more eloquently than I could. (I even think Ark makes some good points — when he’s not being quite so caustic.)
I know where Josh is coming from because I’ve been there. And I understand his passion for defending his beliefs (I’ve been there as well). But for me, his latest posting shows more of the “Christian spirit” than anything he’s posted before.
As I’ve indicated previously, unkleE’s comments often tend to rub me the wrong way — and from other’s comments, I don’t think I’m the only one that feels this way. However, it’s apparent he has done considerable reading and I commend him for that since so many who claim to be Christians don’t have a clue about their faith. All they are doing is following in the footsteps of those before them.
And finally, I must say I simply LOVE this blog. The conversations are super stimulating — and I can’t tell you how many times the contributors have driven me to my library to confirm or deny their comments. Thank you, Nate, for introducing such provocative topics.
OK, that’s all from my little corner of the world. This will probably be the longest posting I’ll ever make. 😉
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Well said , Nan ! You don’t have to take a “back seat” to anyone here ! You are more than adequate in expressing your thoughts !
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Thanks, kc and Nan. Good to know I’m not the only one who’s been there, Nan 😉
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I cannot remotely expect Unklee to visit this site and read what Carrier has to say, it would have him frothing at the mouth and might cause an infarction and I couldn’t have that on my conscience. But anyone else who might be interested in reading about Stephen Law and his recent paper on the trustworthiness of the historicity of Jesus might find this very interesting. Very interesting indeed.
There is also reference to the TF and how that has been finally laid to rest. Thank god(sic)
It’s a long post…you know what Carrier is like?
Make a coffee and pull up a comfy chair.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/4096
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Hello, Nate. I just nominated you for the Liebster Award. Have a great week.
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Hi Josh: this latest comment of yours is very kind and humble. I think a lot of us (including myself) fall into the heat of the discussion and make comments which are not so kind, so don’t feel too bad. I am new to active blogging (although I have been a blog “lurker” since the early days of blogging) and I am still trying to find my “blogging personality”, but I know for sure that I want it to exude the humility that you have expressed here – I believe humility is an important facet in getting us closer to “finding truth”. And I am very much for “finding truth” as honestly as possible, and I believe you are as well even though we disagree. Thanks for your comment!
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Ark, thanks for sharing this ! Interesting link. I liked the part which said,” Law makes the point that there are so many extraordinary claims about (through all recorded history in all cultures and religious traditions) that we can necessarily expect many examples of claims backed with “improbable evidence” like this. Therefore, for evidence to be extraordinary, it must be much less probable than this.
I think we haves seen much of the same kind of extraordinary evidence used here ! 🙂
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Hi Nan: Thanks for the mention! I hadn’t really thought I was all that eloquent. And I agree with KC – you are more than capable – your comments add important pieces to the mix, and I’d like to read more.
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Thanks, Howie!
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@ kcchief1
Carrier does have a habit of going on a bit, but he was spot on with his shredding of William Lane Craig.
Stephen Law’s analysis of the lack of historicity of Jesus might me be considered a minority view currently, but the list of top flight biblical scholars who are leaning in this direction is heartening. My gut has always suspected it was nothing more than fiction and I suspect a lot more scholars feel this way as well, but have always been reluctant to say so publicly.
Maybe common sense will eventually prevail?
Carrier’ s mention of the final debunking of Josephus and the TF was masterly, I only wish I had heard of this rationale before.
You can argue the facts but that doesn’t change the truth, does it?
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the bible and it’s rules/requirements look like the rules for a game created by children. They make some rules for a game, but as they begin to play realize that the rules didn’t quite cover every scenario, so they hastily created more on the spot to keep the game going, and then eventually ran into a similar situation, and had to then make more field adjustments to keep the game going.
After a while, the players eventually realize that the game is now too stupid to keep playing… that, or at least on lookers (typically the adults) realize it’s too stupid a game for them to play.
Says this here, says that there – now we argue over which one is more clear, or whether it should be literal or figurative, and then proclaim “how wonderful and perfect God’s plan was, that He, in His glorious wisdom, gave us such a clear and simple plan.”
Josh/UnkleE – you guys have to be smarter than this…
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William-
I don’t disagree with much of what you wrote there. The rules changed from book to book, sometimes chapter to chapter. If I were to try to harmonize those I would indeed go insane. For me, what it really boils down to is this: Jesus taught an incredibly high moral and social ethic. There are a lot of do-gooders in the world calling us to treat others as we want to be treated, and there have been these do-gooders since the beginning of time, it seems. I have tried my entire life to become the person that Jesus, and all these others, call me to be. I make strides here and there, but I also make horrible failures that leave me embarrassed and distraught. I just don’t see in myself, or in the world at large, any real progress toward the ideal civility that so many good people have called us to. I want it. I see that so many other people want it, and try as hard or harder than I do. Not many of us, if any, have gotten there. So, I look at myself. I see that I have, thus far, not made a heck of a lot of progress toward the person I wish to be. I get disillusioned, and wonder what hope there is. There is one person who offered hope in such a situation. That was Jesus. He demonstrated healing and renewing to those who were broken and discarded by society. He taught that through him all will be healed and renewed. Now, maybe, as Ark argues, Jesus never existed. Even if the gospels are completely fabricated, and you could prove that to me, I would still HOPE that there was such a man out there, in some place and some time, that truly could offer the kind of hope for renewal that Jesus offered. I will continue to work on myself, and I will continue to try to help others work on the world. But, unless there comes a time where I witness this hope realized in our world, I will continue to hope that Jesus is who he said he was. It is what we all strive for (well, most of us, anyway). That, aside from all the arguments, theological discussions, and recycled rhetoric, is why I remain a “Christian”. That Jesus claim about himself and what he will do, that it appears we cannot, is what I place my hope and trust in. Not the confusion in scripture that causes so much argument.
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@ Josh
”Jesus taught an incredibly high moral and social ethic.”
No, in fact he didn’t. And statements like this, inculcated from way back when , leave christians viewing their faith through rose tinted glasses.
For example….
Luke 14:26
”You cannot be my disciple, unless you love me more than you love your father and mother, your wife and children, and your brothers and sisters. You cannot come with me unless you love me more than you love your own life.”
I wouldn’t give ANYONE who commanded this the time of day.The bloke was an egotistical arsehole.
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Ark-
I see where you’re coming from. If Jesus was not who he said he was, then I would agree with you. Absolutely, that’s a horrible, egotistical thing for one human being to demand of another. However, if Jesus can deliver on what he promised (the healing and reconciliation so many of us desire), then I have no problem placing so much love and trust in him that, relatively speaking, it appears as though I “hate” my family. I’m not hoping in a man that cannot deliver. I’m hoping in God, who can deliver. I could be wrong, sure. But, if I’m not, then I do believe he is worthy of such devotion.
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Josh.
And this is the whole crux of Christianity, is it not, and I am so glad someone has finally raised it, as it strikes at the heart if Nate’s post.
So, never mind what he claimed and what was/is claimed on his behalf, the question is simple.
Did Jesus deliver?
Look at the bible, look around you and look at the world. Based on the evidence at hand – not a chance in hell did he deliver on ANYTHING.
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“Did Jesus deliver?”
Agreed. He has not. Not yet 🙂
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I’ve been away for several days and haven’t been able to keep up. I won’t go back and comment on any of the stuff I missed, since everyone’s moved on.
Thanks for the apology you gave earlier Josh — though I owe one to you too. People always say to never discuss politics and religion for a reason 🙂
Let me ask you about this, though:
How does this match up with your belief that through Jesus everything has already been accomplished and nothing more is required? By default, doesn’t that mean people will just stay the same? The very thing that makes you despair?
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“People always say to never discuss politics and religion for a reason”
Ha! Yes. Thanks, Nate.
“How does this match up with your belief that through Jesus everything has already been accomplished and nothing more is required?”
Good point, Nate. I guess it doesn’t. We certainly aren’t living in the reconciliation now. At least, I hope we’re not! I do believe Jesus’ return with the “New Jerusalem” in his wake is still required in order for the completion of the reconciliation. So, maybe “everything has already been accomplished and nothing more is required” is not an accurate way to state what I believe. I’ll have to work on that 🙂
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Josh, are you familiar with the children’s story, “the emperor’s new clothes?” Really, check it out if not.
As I look back, I think what that story teaches about is a large part of what kept me in Christianity for as long as i was in it.
With all the convoluted, complex, tangled junk one must wrestle with in the bible, it actually all began to make much, much more sense once I realized the emperor was actually naked.
Once you can toss aside the intellectual and philosophical gymnastics, you can see things for what they are.
And hope? I have hopes as well, but hope does not equate to reality or truth or fact. The truth is what it is regardless of what you or i would like it to be.
(jumping topics) and the scholars can say all they want, but if they posit that the bible actually means something different that what it plainly says, then that’s evidence against the bible – not for it.
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William-
All good points. I’m not going to try to convince you otherwise. You’ve made your choice, and I’ve made mine. I had been trying really hard to convince others I’m right a lot lately, and I just don’t have the interest or the intellect to keep pretending I can give satisfying answers to everything. Just wanting to lend my perspective to the discussion.
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I meant to correct “You’ve made your choice”. That sounds really dramatic. Forgot to change it before I hit POST. 🙂 I just meant that we’ve come to different places in our searches.
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Man, almost 150 comments, this blog is blowing up Nate, very happy for you. I’ll throw my two cents out before I go through and read them all. I’ve been in the very same fundamental version of Christianity that Nate grew up in, and also in more liberal ones. I personally am now somewhat in the middle of the two.
1. What are ‘we’ being saved from? I wrote this answer several different ways, but I feel a different way to look at it might be this: We are being saved from ourselves and what our actions have earned us.
2. Afterlife for the saved: an eternity spent with God-worship, fellowship, peace. Afterlife for the unsaved: an eternity spent away fro God-much pain be it emotional or physical I’m not sure which would be worse.
3. (my favorite btw) We are expected to Act justly, Love mercy, and to Walk Humbly with our God.
4. ah,, works, faith… I don’t get how folks make such a big stink of this. The two work together. It seems two folks can look at the same thing and one call it a work while the other argues that is not. Baptism a great example. for the record I don’t think it is a work, any more than faith or repentance is one. I think the author of James laid it out pretty well, one produces the other.
5. Not sure what you are asking here. God’s grace is given to us in that we don’t deserve salvation but it is offered to us anyhow. Faith in Christ/God should produce works that just makes sense. I’m an Alabama fan, I go to Alabama football games, wear Alabama clothes and talk about Alabama football with others, always sticking up for ‘my’ team. Same should go for Christians.
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Hi Josh, when you said “Agreed. He has not. Not yet “ I think you were being too modest.
300 million people around the world believe they have witnessed or experienced a miracle (mostly significant healing) in Jesus’ name. Whether these was miracles or not, that’s a large impact.
LIkewise millions of people whose lives have been rescued from the hopelessness of substance abuse, depression, emotional trauma, lack of purpose, etc, in the name of Jesus. Another huge impact, however it may be explained.
Since the early days of christianity in the Roman Empire right through to today, christians run hospitals, famine relief, aged care, and a bunch of other worthwhile community services, even in Muslim countries, at a far greater degree than do non-believers. This has made a difference to millions over millennia.
2.3 billion followers around the world, about a third of all people – not bad for a humble Galilean tekton!
I cannot think of a movement of any sort that has achieved more for longer than christianity. I’d say that’s an impressive record. It’s an opt-in movement of volunteers, not conscripts, and I’d say he has achieved as much as we’ve allowed him to.
The christian church as a bunch of organisations has much to be ashamed of (as have virtually all organisations), but the individual followers of Jesus have a fine record. However it is explained, let’s not sell it short!
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unkleE,
All of those things were still done by people. The specific things you’ve laid out were done by people motivated by Christianity — that much is true, and I don’t want to sell that short. It is important. But I still feel it’s a bit different than saying Jesus did those things, and it also doesn’t prove much as to whether or not there’s any truth to Christianity.
People can find lots of things to motivate them, and it’s not uncommon for people to use those common motivations to do good things for others. In every case, it’s people that are bringing these changes about, not a deity. And it’s taken thousands of years for society to evolve to this point. It’s also taken science and technology.
Motivations are important, and it’s certainly true that Christians are motivated by Christianity. But non-Christians do great things too, despite having different motivations. That’s part of our human nature.
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