This post is not going to be in the standard format. Instead of laying out what I think about a particular issue and then possibly getting into a discussion afterward, I really just want to ask a series of questions that I hope readers will answer in the comment section.
My background with Christianity is with a very fundamentalist variety that believes faith, grace, and works are all tightly woven together — each plays a necessary part in salvation. I’m much less familiar with more liberal versions of Christianity, and that’s what I’m hoping to learn more about in this discussion. So here are my questions:
- The New Testament speaks a lot about salvation. What exactly are Christians being saved from?
- In a similar vein, are non-Christians bound for a different fate than Christians? What will the afterlife be like for each?
- What does God/Jesus expect from us? Anything?
- Of what value are works? Is baptism a work? If so, then is faith also a work?
- What’s the relationship between faith, grace, and works?
I’ve numbered these for ease of reference, but please answer any or all of them in whatever way you like. Or if some of them are bad questions, let me know that too. It’s time to witness, folks! 🙂
Finding Truth 
Matt,
I agree with what you’ve laid out about Christianity. That’s my reading of it as well (even though I no longer really believe it).
Thanks for weighing in — always great to hear from you!
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Hi Nate, yes, I agree with all you’ve said. But most christians would give the credit to Jesus – saying that they couldn’t achieve it without what he’s done for them, without his example and teaching, and without the power of his Spirit.
My point is simply that the kingdom of God started by Jesus is working exactly as he said it would – by people opting in, bubbling away often unnoticed, mixed up with good and evil together, but making a big difference. And therefore we can say that he has made a big difference.
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@Unklee.
”Hi Josh, when you said “Agreed. He has not. Not yet “ I think you were being too modest.”
No, mate, Josh is ALMOST right.
”Not yet.” YThe answer is , in fact,”Not a bloody chance…ever.”
And this is the delusion that people have been conned, yes CONNED through, guilt, fear, and other more subversive forms of coercion,outright physical brutality, oppresion and murder.
You are little more than a smarmy version of William Lane Craig,unklee.
A person who will secretly laugh at Creationists while feeling so smug that your claim to ”KNOW” the Resurrection is fact. Really? What a twit.
Someone who will trot out your famous ‘consensus’ line yet when shown how fallacious your argument is you will accuse the other person of not being in the same universe or some-such.
You, sir, and your asinine, unsubstantiated patently ridiculous comments are the poster boy for this type of inculcation.
Ad hominem? You bet you christian backside.
You are the ultimate bullshitter, unklee. And the person you are bullshitting the most, is yourself.
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unkleE-
“Not yet” was referring to the completion of reconciliation on Jesus’ return.
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Yes, I understood that. But I thought I might give a progress report!
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@unkllE
”Yes, I understood that. But I thought I might give a progress report!”
LOL! Any why oh why would you believe you are qualified to even venture an opinion let alone offer a progress report?
Do you truly believed you have your god’s ear in this matter?
That he would require your input to assuage any fears or doubts expressed by the likes of Josh?
If I was this god I would tell you in no uncertain terms to mind your own bloody business and chat to Josh myself.
But it seems your god is keeping mum, hey, unklee? And has been for the past 2000 years.
What a Silly Person.
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Ark-
You bring up a good point about doubts and fears. For me, it is often my doubts and fears that cause me to dig deeper into what I believe in order to try to better understand it and its claims.
Do you experience the same with your beliefs? Doubts and fears, I mean? Or, would you say you have a level of confidence and certainty that precludes any concern that you may not be on the right track?
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“But I thought I might give a progress report!”
Always appreciated. Part of the reason I thought I might back off on the “heavy lifting”. You do such a wonderful job of explaining these things, and I hate to muddle it up with my attempts at doing the same 🙂
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I don’t want to answer for Ark, so i wont, I’ll ask a question regrading your instead.
You ask Ark about fears… what do you mean? fears that he may be wrong and that christianity may be right? or are you just asking if he fears he may be wrong?
If you mean that he may fear because of a “what if jesus is the son of god” then do you fear that zeus may be real? Or Thor?
For me, I consider that I may not know the full answer, so I continue to seek, but I feel as certain that the bible is not from god as I do that neither zeus nor thor are real.
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”Do you experience the same with your beliefs? Doubts and fears, I mean? Or, would you say you have a level of confidence and certainty that precludes any concern that you may not be on the right track?”
I will answer this in context (atheism) and hope this is what you are alluding to.
The answer: Based a on the evidence; emphatically No.
If you are referring to doubt in other areas of life, then sure, who doesn’t?
Will I get a tax rebate, will Liverpool win the English league, Will such and such client accept this offer, will one of my books sell a million copies, will Jesus help me with the lottery.
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@William
”’For me, I consider that I may not know the full answer, so I continue to seek, but I feel as certain that the bible is not from god as I do that neither zeus nor thor are real.”
I know my KJV is NOT from god…any god. It was given to me by my Sunday school teacher when I was nine or ten for passing a bible ‘test’ – along with the rest of the class.
Ah…inculcation. In those days I really believed Jesus wanted me for a sunbeam.
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@Josh
“But I thought I might give a progress report!”
Always appreciated. Part of the reason I thought I might back off on the “heavy lifting”. You do such a wonderful job of explaining these things, and I hate to muddle it up with my attempts at doing the same :)”
Yes, unklee does do a wonderful job. What a comfort he must be?
You wouldn’t take his level of bullshit from a 2nd hand car salesman so why take it from a snake oil peddler like him?
I think your god would be very disappointed if he thought you weren’t thinking for yourself, Josh.
That’s why god gave you a brain, right?
It isn’t compulsory to have it permanently tuned to Radio Unklee, you know?
Just turn the dial and listen to another station. Maybe you’ll find Sweet Home Alabama
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“Just turn the dial and listen to another station. Maybe you’ll find Sweet Home Alabama”
I laughed out loud… Who are you?
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Josh, don’t sell yourself short. Besides, christians should be honest and courteous, and you are both of those. All the best to you.
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@Ark
“If you are referring to doubt in other areas of life, then sure, who doesn’t?
Will I get a tax rebate, will Liverpool win the English league, Will such and such client accept this offer, will one of my books sell a million copies, will Jesus help me with the lottery.”
Really? Liverpool winning the League is in your doubt category? If there are ANY certainties, the fact that the Scousers have ZERO chance of coming in on top.
Glory, Glory!
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@Graham
Oh god this must be another bloody Manc….
There’s always next season mate… 😉
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@Josh
”Josh, don’t sell yourself short. Besides, christians should be honest and courteous, and you are both of those. All the best to you.”
I don’t think you are selling yourself at all, Josh. that’s what “hanging on the corner Sales Ladies do”
And you certainly wouldn’t to want to be a condescending, smarmy git, ”Jesus Sunbeam”, now would you?
However, If ever you find yourself looking at your reflection in the mirror saying, “G’day, Jesus, well tie me bloody kangaroo down, sport”, with a twangy Oz accent please seek medical attention, immediately.
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Thanks, unkleE. Just trying to find my own voice here. Trying to determine the productivity of these conversations. It seems that we all really do see things very differently. No amount of explaining or evidencing can get another person to see things from my perspective. And, I really cannot see things from their perspective, either. So, what’s the point of having the conversation? I read a post over at Ark’s blog talking about how the atheist is deceiving himself if he thinks he can have a rational conversation with a religious person. Nate commented there, seeming to agree with that sentiment. If no one thinks we can have rational dialogue, why do it? We just seem to be talking past each other – the religious person being unable to see the atheist perspective, and vice versa. It’s not that any of us are “pretending”, it just seems we really cannot find common ground. Maybe talking/debating/arguing these things out isn’t the right way to go about it?
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@ Josh.
The honest starting point in any such debate is to regard anything and everything open to inquiry and to treat it all the same way, no special pleading.
The second …the instant you are prepared to do that, to let go of the mentality of inculcation and
say ”Okay, let’s look at what we have got…”
Believe me, within ten minutes studying it will all begin to unravel.
Unklee is NOT honest because he starts by saying THIS IS REAL. Now let me find stuff to back this up, no matter how he couches his terms. He deliberately obfuscates every issue.
Start by being prepared to suspend faith just for a moment. Now ask is it feasible that anyone can walk on water?
Is is feasible to feed 5000 people from a few fish and loaves. For a gods, maybe.
Now, ask yourself, 5000 people and not a SINGLE witness outside of the bible tale. Not one..
Ask Unklee to explain that?
No, stuff him. YOU explain it. You’re not an idiot.
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Hi Josh, you raise a very heartfelt question, and one I have pondered too. Here are a few of my thoughts (for what they’re worth):
A lot depends on what we mean by “rational”. If either christian or atheist means “according to how I think”, then clearly there is little likelihood of have a constructive conversation. Studies show that analytical thinkers are more likely to be atheist, pessimistic and less social, intuitive thinkers are more likely to be theists, optimistic and social. Analytical thinking is more useful in science and problem solving, whereas intuitive thinking is more useful in life overall, in relationships and in making decisions with inadequate information.
Thus christians and atheists are often going to need to work at understanding each other, and it seems that in many cases they don’t want to. It is easier to dismiss one’s opponents as “delusional” or “rebelling against God” than it is to do the hard work of understanding them. Each needs to realise that there are different modes of thinking, and it is arguable which one is most useful for deciding on questions relating to God.
I have found a few atheists who are willing to do this as I am willing, and have had quite profitable conversations with them – in one case a correspondence with a committed atheist and determinist that lasted almost 18 months, and resulted in friendship, not alienation. But mostly it doesn’t happen, unfortunately – it is easier and ‘safer’ not to recognise that someone’s thinking may be different but sensible.
So I too have questioned whether there is value in these discussions, and quit active involvement in several atheist forums I was part of. But I think there are two possible paths we might follow:
1. It can be interesting to understand another viewpoint, even if we think it is quite wrong. My model for this is atheist philosopher Thomas Nagel, who reviewed a book by christian philosopher Alvin Plantinga in very favourable terms – not because he agreed with it (he did in places, but not overall), but because he was interested to understand Plantinga’s thinking. Unfortunately, most internet discussions become polarised very quickly and few are interested in other people’s views – but we as christians ought to be better than that.
2. I mostly avoid discussing the bigger questions of whether God exists and whether Jesus was divine, because these discussions rarely lead anywhere. So I try to focus more on the evidence that forms the basis for belief or disbelief. There are many established facts that many believers or unbelievers refuse to accept, and outlining the evidence can at least help to provide any discussion with a more solid basis. Unfortunately, here too I find both believers and unbelievers to be equally unwilling to accept facts that seem to threaten their worldview, preferring to try to discredit the established experts and follow non-experts who support their viewpoint.
So when all this fails, I think it is best to move on without rancour. And of course, to pray.
That’s my conclusions after 8 years in this game. Best wishes whatever you decide to do.
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How else would you go about it? It’s no secret that we all disagree – that’s what we’re discussing.
From my perspective, you and UnkleE belong to a more cheery brand of Christianity than I did, but even so, you both seem to pick and choose what parts of the bible you like (as most believers do). Picking and choosing when to apply logic and when to say that god doesnt havent to abide by logic. Picking and choosing scholars. picking and choosing when a scholar’s opinion overrules what the bible says for itself and vise versa. Picking a choosing how to interpret scripture (by how the first century jews would have or in light of modern science) picking and choosing, picking and choosing.
such intellectual gymnastics will create problems when discussing a topic.
I still say, that if you found one such issue in the koran out of the many that exist within the bible, that that single issue would be enough for you completely dismiss the koran as not of god.
are we being fair and consistent? Hope is not evidence, although it can have an impact on a person’s faith – of any faith…
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Ark & William-
The problem I see is that the truth of Christianity rests neither on the belief in Jesus feeding 5000 or the consistency between historical Jewish understanding and modern science. Those, I think, are peripheral issues. Where the truth of Christianity lies is in the claims about Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection. There’s good reason to believe the gospels are accurate eyewitness accounts. People only begin to have problems with that evidence when the issue of miracles is discussed. However, the assertion that the presence of miracles in the accounts requires more than the historically sufficient evidence we have is just that: an assertion. That assertion cannot be established as a neccessity for historical accounts. It seems more of a smokescreen. And, William, with regard to the Koran and all other religions: there’s no other religion that relies on multiple eyewitness accounts with detailed historical information contained in the accounts. There’s really no reason to put the Koran or other religious texts on the same level as Christian accounts. To say otherwise is to misrepresent both Christian and other religious texts with regard to historical verifiability and corroboration.
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Ark’s statement here is absolutely right. I believe that people can change positions based on evidence and reasoning — I did. William did. Marcus over at Bittersweet End did. Howie at Truth is Elusive did. Persto at The Meta-Attitude did. KC, Nan, etc. Many people have shown that it happens. And I know there are people that have gone from atheism to belief too — I’m not trying to present this as a one-sided thing. People can change when presented with evidence.
I thought the “parable” on Ark’s site was funny — and I also thought there was some truth in it, because there are plenty of people who won’t change, no matter what information they’re presented with. But those people’s beliefs don’t hinge on evidence anyway.
What are those reasons?
Not true. Miracles were never a problem for me. If God could speak everything into existence, then I felt he was not bound by the laws of physics. He could do whatever he wanted, including the miraculous. But I do believe God is bound by the laws of common sense and logic. And the Bible’s representation of him fails these miserably. I have many articles linked in my About section that detail these problems…
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To me, statements like this show that you’re a bit culturally-blinded. You view the other religions as less credible because their culture is foreign to you. I’m not trying to be insulting — everyone struggles with this. It’s ethnocentrism. It’s not just that someone from Islam was brought up believing a different religion than you — they were brought up with different assumptions about religion, truth, the nature of existence, etc. It takes a lot of work to be able to truly put yourself in their position. Most people aren’t really capable of it, or even take the time to try.
This is why all religions seem false to me. If there’s only one religion — let’s say it’s Christianity — then God expects all people, regardless of background or education, to study their way out of their own beliefs and into a religion that might be foreign to them. If we really think about the realities of human nature, we’ll see that expecting something like that is unrealistic. No being concerned with justice would expect such a thing from people, because most are incapable of doing it.
I think if you’ll spend some time exploring why people believe different things, you’ll come to see that they all have some pretty good reasons. You may not agree with them — but you’ll at least see that they aren’t “rejecting a faith in Jesus” anymore than you’re “rejecting a faith in Allah.” Or Vishnu. Or Thor.
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Josh,
I think you’re fooling yourself. you said, “with regard to the Koran and all other religions: there’s no other religion that relies on multiple eyewitness accounts with detailed historical information contained in the accounts.”
detailed historical accounts? where? do you mean the bible’s accounts of itself?
multiple eyewitness accounts? do you mean where one writer claimed there were 500 nameless witnesses? it’s all unsubstantiated claims. claims made by dudes you never met and never knew. claims for the bible, by the bible.
where’s the records of dead people coming out of their graves at the crucifixion? no one found that noteworthy?
any relreligion can claim it’s not on the same field as the next one because of some unique difference – but that is not evidence for anything.
“To say otherwise is to misrepresent both Christian and other religious texts with regard to historical venerability and corroboration.” I could and probably should use this sentence to reply to you. it is not verified and it is not corroborated.
It’s not a smokescreen to talk about the details. the devil’s in the details and you dont want to discuss them because that’s where the bible damns itself.
if there is good historical support for some guy dying, then raising again 3 days later and flying into heaven, then present it for review and discussion. just claiming there’s evidence doesnt make any appear.
DO you believe in big foot?
do you believe in alien abductions?
they have more evidence and more eyewitnesses than anything from the bible.
and again, with the excuses many believers submit in defense of the biblical problems, you may as well just believe that all religions were given by god and they are all equally valid. It’s easy to see if you’re really seeking with spiritual eyes.
or, or we can treat it like every other outlandish claim and expect some pretty significant evidence to support the claims. And when we see a large amount of contradiction and logical absurdities, we begin to question the nonverifiable claims.
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