I spent a long time as a Christian. I’m able to look back on much of that time very fondly. I loved my fellow brethren, and I truly wanted to learn more about God’s will and do my best to follow it. But there was also a deep fear tied to my belief. I think that’s fairly common among fundamentalists, but it may apply to more moderate Christians as well.
Where did this fear come from? There are certainly a number of passages that talk about God’s love for mankind:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. – John 3:16
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? – Rom 8:31
For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. – Rom 8:38-39
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. – 2 Pet 3:9
But despite his love, God can get angry too. And you wouldn’t like him when he’s angry:
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. – Heb 10:26-31
The scariest thing about this is that facing God’s wrath will be a complete shock to some people. There are those who think they’re doing what God wants, but are completely missing the mark:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” – Matt 7: 21-23
What if you believe in Jesus and love God, but aren’t doing God’s will? Is your sincerity enough? This was a thought that plagued me when I believed. If some people would get to Judgment Day only to find that they weren’t acceptable, then why couldn’t such a thing happen to me? How did I know my beliefs were the correct ones? My brother and I used to talk about this a lot. Through study, he and I both began to think that a couple of the doctrines we had always been taught in the Church of Christ were incorrect. Coming to that conclusion was extremely difficult. Were we reading and understanding our Bibles correctly?
As an illustration, consider a minor passage: 1 Corinthians 11. The beginning of this chapter says that women should have their heads covered when they pray. But the passage is confusing. Paul says that since women have long hair, they should also wear a covering when they pray or prophesy. He spends several verses giving reasons why a woman should cover her head, but then in verse 15, he also says that her long hair is given to her as a covering. So do they still need a separate one? Most confusing at all, verse 16 says:
If anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God.
What does that even mean? Does it mean there’s not a practice of being contentious? That sounds like a crazy thing to have to say. So maybe he’s saying that the head covering is not supposed to be a practice if anyone makes a fuss over it. But that doesn’t make sense either. I mean, what other doctrines are given that caveat? Did any of the 10 Commandments have such an escape clause? The whole passage is confusing. What are Christians supposed to do? Either God wants the covering, or he doesn’t, but that passage can be read any number of different ways.
And of course, that’s far from the only vague passage. When you’re raised in a denomination, you’re taught to read the Bible a particular way. “Predestination” means something very different, depending on who you’re talking to. Who’s right? And what if you were raised in one of the groups that thinks they’re right, but to whom God will say “depart from me, I never knew you”? My brother and I realized how difficult it is to unpack all those preconceptions in order to clearly see the scriptures for what they really say. It’s scary.
Here’s the Point
But eventually, I realized that my fear was needless. The Bible says that God is fair, he doesn’t play favorites, he loves us, and he wants us to find the truth. Jesus said “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you” (Matt 7:7). If those things are true, then there’s no reason for us to be so worried about getting it wrong, as long as we’re sincerely seeking the truth.
It’s important to realize how significant that point is. If we’re really looking for the answers, then no question is going too far. So if we dig into the Bible and think “it doesn’t make sense to me that God would send people to Hell,” we shouldn’t run from that thought — we should investigate it. It’s okay for us to ask why God would command genocide in the Old Testament. It’s okay to wonder why he seems so hidden. It’s okay to ask why he would inspire people to write a message, but not protect the originals or ensure its accuracy. If God supports our search for truth, then all of these questions are valid. In fact, the people who pursue these questions obviously take the issue seriously. Wouldn’t that be more pleasing to God than those who never question what they’ve been told?
If you believe in God, then have faith in his character. Have faith in his promises. And take him seriously enough to challenge those who claim to speak for him (the writers of the Bible). Don’t let people tell you that you can’t question God whenever you express doubt about a passage. The Bible is not God. So show God the respect he deserves and critically examine the Bible before you accept the claim that he inspired it. If he’s real, he’ll be much more pleased with an honest seeker than with someone who’s too scared to ask the tough questions.
Finding Truth 
i have finally had time to get back to this site, after a couple of week absence. lots to catch up on. glad to see it has just recently returned to civil and reasonable discussion. i’d like to look at one point made by william a few posts back:
“the bible says a lot of different things on hell and one of them is eternal torture – and another is the one you pointed out, eternal death.”
it is difficult to develop a doctrine of “eternal torture” based on the words, and especially the meanings of those words, found in the bible. i acknowledge that, indeed, the doctrine has been developed and continues to be believed by many, many christians. but our modern beliefs are based more on dante than on the bible. william, do you have a particular passage that comes to you regarding this matter?
i have been interested in this doctrine, in particular, because it is so repugnant to non-believers, and to many christians as well. if it’s true, then it really doesn’t matter how i or anyone else feels. however, if it’s not true – which i tend to believe – then it has done immense damage to what is often called, and what i know of as, “the good news.”
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Dave,
Jesus referred to “Gehenna” as the place of eternal punishment
Gehenna was the trash heap that was always on fire.
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Dave,
As I mentioned in my comments before, I would offer John 3:16 and Matthew 10:28 to refute the evil doctrine of eternal torment. I agree with your points about how repugnant eternal torment seems to many believers and non-believers. There is no “good new,” in this or in the teaching that most of humanity is damned. These are teachings introduced by those who are no friends of the Gospel. The teaching of the early Church regarding the “Harrowing of Hades,” points to the salvation of most, if not all, of humanity. Although eternal torment was one of three views of the early Church concerning the damned, it was based on the false belief in a natural immortality of the soul, and was a minority view. The other eschatological views of annihilation and universal salvation had as many or more supporters.
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There about five points in that comment, Marc, with which I could take exception, but you’re a nice guy and ’tis the season to be jolly, so I’ll just say, fa la la la la, la la la la —
Hope you and yours had a great Xmas, and I wish for all of yours a Happy New Year!
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i couldn’t have said it better, marc. i had never heard the term “harrowing of hades,” though knew of the concept, and of the various views in history that still are held today. i lean toward annihilationism myself, but wouldn’t be surprised if universal salvation is the reality.
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I don’t know when I last bit my tongue so hard! (Think happy thoughts! Think happy thoughts! Think happy thoughts!)
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Thanks, Arch. I think I know you well enough now to have a good idea of why you might take exception to my points of view. Please accept my best wishes to you and yours for the New Year also. We have enjoyed having all three of our children, seven grandchildren, and our grand dog visit us this week. Don’t bite your tongue Arch, just shake your head and roll your eyes.
You and I are on the same page Dave on these eschatological issues. If you do not know Arch yet, you will find out that he is a tough yet fair advocate of the atheist cosmic view. I enjoy his wonderful knowledge of history and his piercing wit.
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Done!:-) HNY!
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i’ve read and mostly appreciated arch’s comments during the month i’ve been on this site. his bark is worse than his bite, which for the sake of his tongue is a good thing.
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Arf!
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Sorry I’ve been gone so long. Hope everyone has had a great holiday season so far!
Marc said:
Welcome back, Marc! It’s nice to hear from you again.
I am definitely not a militant atheist, and I understand why so many people believe in a god. As humans, I think we have a “spiritual nature,” for lack of a better word, even though I don’t believe in an actual spirit. I think it’s obvious that we are tied to one another in ways that are difficult to explain — maybe it has something to do with pheromones or something; I don’t know. I think a lot of it is tied to the fact that we’re all aware of our own mortality, and this leads us to look for meaning beyond our physical lives.
What keeps me from being a deist or theist is that even though I can appreciate the longing we have for something transcendental, I haven’t experienced anything to make me believe this is any more tangible than a desire. I just don’t find the evidence for a deity convincing.
So I do feel open to the various possibilities — I’m just not currently convinced by any of them. That’s why I identify as an atheist.
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Dave, welcome back to you as well!
Since you and Marc asked about the passages to support the idea of an “eternal torture” type of Hell, these are the ones that I think of:
Matt 3:12 (and Luke 3:17):
Matt 18:8-9:
Mark 9:43:
Matt 25:46:
2 Thess 1:9:
I know that one talks about “eternal destruction,” so it might lead some to view this as annihilation. But how do you destroy something eternally? Once it’s destroyed, it’s gone. So is this talking about a never-ending process of destruction? If so, that would seem to fit the eternal torment idea…
Jude 12-13:
When one really studies the doctrine of Hell, I think it’s very obvious that it was built up over time. The concept that most people have of it (and that the above verses suggest) is simply not taught in the Old Testament. Why, if it were true, would God not have mentioned it to all the people that lived before Christ’s time? And when you consider its similarities to the beliefs held by the Persians and Greeks, it’s no wonder that the Jews didn’t teach a similar doctrine until they had been under captivity to both of those empires.
The New Testament uses at least two different terms for Hell: Gehenna, the trash heap outside Jerusalem; and Tartarus, the Greek’s name for Hell. Personally, I think most of the NT writers did believe in a literal, eternal Hell. I don’t really see what else Jesus could have meant by warning people about Gehenna — surely he didn’t mean that they would literally be cast into the trash pit for not observing all their moral obligations to Jehovah. I think they used the terms Gehenna and Tartarus to stand in for a literal Hell-like afterlife. But who knows?
The main thing I get from these passages is that the Bible was definitely a product of its times and was susceptible to the same evolution that other myths undergo. That’s why I don’t believe it was actually divinely inspired.
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Couldn’t have said it better myself – more sarcastically, certainly, but not better.
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I intend demonstrating at some future point on my own website, that the idea of hell originated only after the Greek conquest of the Levant c.300 BCE, but I’m a long way from having all of my ducks in a row, so nobody should start with me now, as I’m unprepared to debate it and will politely(?) decline to do so.
Interesting to note that the philosopher, Porphyry, a student of Plotinus, disapproved of eating meat, and believed that farts originated because demons inside of meat-eaters devoured the consumed meat, and farted – of course those had to come out somewhere, and I’m sure we can guess where – the dog didn’t do it! I guess he was unfamiliar with cabbage.
To all of you “ists” – whether athe-ist, de-ist, or the-ist, or nudist – hope you have a Happy Earth Birthday!
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LOL Arch. I must be damned because I do prefer meat to veggies.
The hell business is always confusing because of how it is translated. The King James Bible uses the world hell for the Hebrew Sheol and Gehenna, and the Greek Hades and Tartarus. Sheol and Hades mean the realm of the dead, Tartarus is a spiritual prison, and Gehenna is a garbage dump that burns continuously. So much for Bible inerrancy.
One interesting take on Gehenna, or the everlasting fire associated with the last judgment, is that it is the presence of God rather than a created fire. Many of the early Church Fathers believed that God’s presence was either experienced as illuminating joy or as a consuming fire depending upon the spiritual condition of the individual.
Ditto on Happy New Year to all of are “ist” friends.
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Well, at least you now know where your farts come from – daemons!
Interesting parallel between “Sheol” and jail!
“Gehenna” was where your hero was headed, before Joseph of Arimathea said, “Hey, anybody wanna borrow a tomb?”
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Nate, good to be back. Hope you are having a happy, meat-and-demon-free holiday.
Jesus warned people about “gehenna,” yes. But did He think of it as eternal torture? In the gospel of John, there is the famous verse: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.” (John 3:16; NRSV) This word, “perish,” was used, along with “destruction,” to describe a potential fate after death. And when considering “eternal destruction,” it’s not about destroying something eternally, which as I think you are indicating is not possible. It’s about a destruction that lasts eternally. As you mentioned, once it’s destroyed, it’s gone. For how long? Eternally.
Death is common to all people, obviously, and is dealt with in all cultures. How it is imagined differs. The Hebrews and Greeks imagined it differently, I am guessing. But there is also the difficulty of language differences. As has been mentioned by Marc, “sheol” was the word used by the Hebrews, which surely Jesus would have known. But his words were recorded in Greek, and so the equivalent “hades” was used. In addition, Jesus added the other well-known (at that time) image of “gehenna.” Was that “evolution” (i.e., a change), or simply a fuller understanding of death?
Finally, what happened in “gehenna”? Did the trash and the bodies thrown there burn forever? No, they perished. And even though new trash and bodies were added at that time, they eventually burned out. If I’m not mistaken, today that valley is full of life.
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For Dave:
Kissing Hank’s Ass
This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:
John: “Hi! I’m John, and this is Mary.”
Mary: “Hi! We’re here to invite you to come kiss Hank’s ass with us.”
Me: “Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who’s Hank, and why would I want to kiss His ass?”
John: “If you kiss Hank’s ass, He’ll give you a million dollars; and if you don’t, He’ll kick the shit out of you.”
Me: “What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?”
John: “Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can’t until you kiss His ass.”
Me: “That doesn’t make any sense. Why…”
Mary: “Who are you to question Hank’s gift? Don’t you want a million dollars? Isn’t it worth a little kiss on the ass?”
Me: “Well maybe, if it’s legit, but…”
John: “Then come kiss Hank’s ass with us.”
Me: “Do you kiss Hank’s ass often?”
Mary: “Oh yes, all the time…”
Me: “And has He given you a million dollars?”
John: “Well no. You don’t actually get the money until you leave town.”
Me: “So why don’t you just leave town now?”
Mary: “You can’t leave until Hank tells you to, or you don’t get the money, and He kicks the shit out of you.”
Me: “Do you know anyone who kissed Hank’s ass, left town, and got the million dollars?”
John: “My mother kissed Hank’s ass for years. She left town last year, and I’m sure she got the money.”
Me: “Haven’t you talked to her since then?”
John: “Of course not, Hank doesn’t allow it.”
Me: “So what makes you think He’ll actually give you the money if you’ve never talked to anyone who got the money?”
Mary: “Well, He gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you’ll get a raise, maybe you’ll win a small lotto, maybe you’ll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street.”
Me: “What’s that got to do with Hank?”
John: “Hank has certain ‘connections.'”
Me: “I’m sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game.”
John: “But it’s a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don’t kiss Hank’s ass He’ll kick the shit out of you.”
Me: “Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him…”
Mary: “No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank.”
Me: “Then how do you kiss His ass?”
John: “Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His ass. Other times we kiss Karl’s ass, and he passes it on.”
Me: “Who’s Karl?”
Mary: “A friend of ours. He’s the one who taught us all about kissing Hank’s ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times.”
Me: “And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His ass, and that Hank would reward you?”
John: “Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here’s a copy; see for yourself.”
From the Desk of Karl
1. Kiss Hank’s ass and He’ll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
2. Use alcohol in moderation.
3. Kick the shit out of people who aren’t like you.
4. Eat right.
5. Hank dictated this list Himself.
6. The moon is made of green cheese.
7. Everything Hank says is right.
8. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9. Don’t use alcohol.
10. Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11. Kiss Hank’s ass or He’ll kick the shit out of you.
Me: “This appears to be written on Karl’s letterhead.”
Mary: “Hank didn’t have any paper.”
Me: “I have a hunch that if we checked we’d find this is Karl’s handwriting.”
John: “Of course, Hank dictated it.”
Me: “I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?”
Mary: “Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people.”
Me: “I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the shit out of people just because they’re different?”
Mary: “It’s what Hank wants, and Hank’s always right.”
Me: “How do you figure that?”
Mary: “Item 7 says ‘Everything Hank says is right.’ That’s good enough for me!”
Me: “Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up.”
John: “No way! Item 5 says ‘Hank dictated this list himself.’ Besides, item 2 says ‘Use alcohol in moderation,’ Item 4 says ‘Eat right,’ and item 8 says ‘Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.’ Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too.”
Me: “But 9 says ‘Don’t use alcohol.’ which doesn’t quite go with item 2, and 6 says ‘The moon is made of green cheese,’ which is just plain wrong.”
John: “There’s no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you’ve never been to the moon, so you can’t say for sure.”
Me: “Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock…”
Mary: “But they don’t know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese.”
Me: “I’m not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow ‘captured’ by the Earth has been discounted*. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn’t make it cheese.”
John: “Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!”
Me: “We do?”
Mary: “Of course we do, Item 7 says so.”
Me: “You’re saying Hank’s always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That’s circular logic, no different than saying ‘Hank’s right because He says He’s right.'”
John: “Now you’re getting it! It’s so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank’s way of thinking.”
Me: “But…oh, never mind. What’s the deal with wieners?”
Mary: She blushes.
John: “Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It’s Hank’s way. Anything else is wrong.”
Me: “What if I don’t have a bun?”
John: “No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong.”
Me: “No relish? No Mustard?”
Mary: She looks positively stricken.
John: He’s shouting. “There’s no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!”
Me: “So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?”
Mary: Sticks her fingers in her ears.”I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la.”
John: “That’s disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that…”
Me: “It’s good! I eat it all the time.”
Mary: She faints.
John: He catches Mary. “Well, if I’d known you were one of those I wouldn’t have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the shit out of you I’ll be there, counting my money and laughing. I’ll kiss Hank’s ass for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater.”
With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.
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I find it poor etiquette to advertise on another’s website, but I don’t think Nate would mind, Marc, if I invited you to drop by and see me sometime – feel free to comment.
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Thanks, Arch. Looks like you are focused on Genesis and going forward. I will read and comment as I go. Regarding Hank, I sure am glad that Josh isn’t such an asshole.
Dave, I understand Sheol/ Hades, and Tartarus as manifestations of the intermediate spiritual state for humans and fallen angels. The nature of Sheol/Hades was changed with the Harrowing of Hades that happened when the Lord entered and preached the Gospel to all (see 1 Peter 3:18). The most ancient Christian Tradition teaches that most if not all repented and ascended to the Heavenly Jerusalem as part of the spiritual first resurrection. The extension of this understanding is that after the death of the body now, the spirit/soul is illuminated and diagnosed (judged) to determine what therapy might be required for repentance and reconciliation to experience the spiritual first resurrection. Only those who refuse to accept the diagnoses and treatment are left in Tartarus with the fallen angels to await the final judgment and annihilation in the lake of fire (Gehenna).
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For Arch:
“Settin’ Up Straw Men and Knockin’ ‘Em Down”
The next day, after sticking a “No Soliciting” sign on his front door, Arch couldn’t wait for the rest of the day. He was interested in learning more about American history and government, and so after downing a can of “beanie weenies” (completely ignoring the good and helpful advice of John and Mary), he headed downtown to the “Constitutionalists ‘R’ Us” convention.
When he arrived, however, he was disappointed to find a homogenous crowd of white men, all of whom were 175 years old or older. “Well, I’m here, I may as well enjoy it,” he said to himself as he sat down for the first speech, called “How to Treat Your Slaves.” During the Q&A session right after the speech, Arch couldn’t help himself. “Uh, do you guys realize that slavery was abolished years ago?” A low murmur went through the room, and all eyes stared at Arch. “You must be mistaken,” said the moderator. Arch decided not to push it, and sat down for the next presentation, “Puttin’ Uppity Women in Their Place,” in which the speaker decried the suffrage movement and promised that women would never get the vote. Once again, Arch couldn’t help himself, and was first to the microphone. “Excuse me, but you are aware… aren’t you?… that women have the right to vote?” Some snickers were heard, and all of a sudden the room erupted into laughter. “Perhaps you are in the wrong place, sir,” said the moderator, hardly able to breathe he was laughing so hard, as two men hooked their canes to Arch’s arms and pulled him out of the room.
Arch was flabbergasted, but remembering his talk with John and Mary the day before, he was more than ever convinced that, through a brief encounter with people more ridiculous than he could ever have imagined, he could fairly categorize all “Kissing-Hank’s-Ass-ians” and “Lovers-of-the-Constitution-ians,” not to mention their beliefs and interpretations of the rules. As he drifted off to sleep, thinking about the last two days, he wondered what “straw man” he might encounter tomorrow.
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@Marc
“I must be damned because I do prefer meat to veggies.”
I should say so!
Curiously, though, it seems as if God Himself is damned:
“In the course of time Cain brought an offering to the LORD from the fruit of the ground,
while Abel, for his part, brought the fatty portion of the firstlings of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry and dejected.”
Gen 4, 3-5
This story might be the origin of the phrase “God damned”. Perhaps, in an earlier rendition, it may have been, “God, damned”. Which, I suppose, puts a whole new spin on the meaning of hell.
Of course, not being a literalist, I don’t imagine these ‘grasps at scriptural straws’ prove anything at all — so I’m as happy with absurd conclusions as rational ones.
Paul
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This is one of the things, Captain C, that confuses me about you – as, “not a literalist,” how do you decide what, if anything, should be taken literally?
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“[H]ow do you decide what, if anything, should be taken literally?”
Arch,
This is what I believe:
I believe “Repent and receive the good news!”
If the Church, or the Bible, or you or anyone else comes up with a suggestion for me that involves me coming to a more joyful life and doing a better job of bringing joy to others by cleaning up my act and straightening out, I’m going to give that suggestion a fair hearing.
If, in the name of “religion”, you propose something that will make me a worse asshole than I am already, or pour condemnation on other people, or do stuff I don’t agree with because I’m afraid of being punished if I don’t, or slander God by depicting Him as an irrational ogre — well, that’s the kind of stuff I basically set aside.
My thoughts aren’t really that simplistic — but I hope I’ve pointed you in the right direction.
Paul
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Not just trying to be disagreeable, but I can’t honestly say that you have – if anything, you’ve raised far more questions than you’ve answered.
“Repent” what? What “good news“? And of course it’s a logical impossibility to picture a nonexistent being as, “an irrational ogre.”
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