I was having a discussion with a friend of mine the other day, and it started me on a certain train of thought about two topics in particular. I think they’re often points of misunderstanding between those who are religious and those who aren’t. I have my own thoughts about these two issues, but I’d really like to hear from the other nonbelievers who read this blog. As always, Christian commentary is welcome too.
- If the Bible’s claims about God, Jesus, miracles, etc are untrue, what were the motives of the people who wrote it?
- Many nonbelievers view Christians’ efforts at teaching their children and others as indoctrination. Is that a fair term? Why do we view it as indoctrination? And if that’s what it is, what is the point of it? Furthermore, are we indoctrinating our own children against religion? If we’re striving for open-mindedness, should we try to teach our children about religious perspectives as well?
Again, I have my own thoughts regarding these questions. I think they’re often asked (or unasked) in a way that carries some assumptions, and I’ve tried to leave those intact. So if you feel that the questions aren’t phrased correctly, feel free to address that in your response as well.
I almost never directly ask for comments, yet my posts usually get quite a few. It will be just my luck that no one comments now that I’m asking. 🙂
Finding Truth 
1. If the Bible’s claims about God, Jesus, miracles, etc are untrue, what were the motives of the people who wrote it?
I speculate that the motives were to
1) To unify the tribe of Israel.
2) To control the tribe of Israel.
3) To galvanize the tribe of Israel.
Looking at it objectively non of what’s written in the OT is meant for so-called Gentiles except as a warning.
2. Many nonbelievers view Christians’ efforts at teaching their children and others as indoctrination. Is that a fair term? Why do we view it as indoctrination? And if that’s what it is, what is the point of it? Furthermore, are we indoctrinating our own children against religion? If we’re striving for open-mindedness, should we try to teach our children about religious perspectives as well?
Why do we view it as indoctrination? Because it is indoctrination. Many fundamentalist sects would assent to this proudly proclaiming that ‘if we don’t indoctrinate our children the world surely will’. The point of indoctrination would be to inoculate a child against a worldview with which one disagrees. Religious people tend not to want their children to make these decisions for themselves for fear that they might actually choose to believe something blasphemous. If you believe in heaven and hell you can scarce afford to leave it up to them, can you?
Some non-believers indoctrinate and some don’t. Having been on both sides of this (as a believer and now a non-believer) I probably would teach my children about various religious perspectives with the caveat of why I don’t believe that. I would want to be the one who introduces them to these ideas instead of them encountering it as a “surprise”. Maybe that, too, is indoctrination.
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Looking at it objectively none* – none of what is written…
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“To expect a child to exercise critical thought while the worldview of all his or her peers is diametrically opposed to critical thought is asking way too much of a kid….A child is looking for some guidance and when the inevitable questions regarding religion arise what must parents say if they are true believers but want to remain objective?”
Love that quote from Ark. Great point. The influence of the “Worldview” is one that never goes away with age/maturity, unfortunately.
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Of course, if in time, his prophecies didn’t come true, he would eventually be summarily fired.
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I haven’t read all the other comments so sorry for any repetition but here’s my 2 cents.
1) This is a major reason I continue to be a Christian. It’s not the only reason, but it is compelling I think.
2) I’ve thought quite a lot about this, having two young children who pretty much believe whatever I say without question (for now ha). Certainly many parents do indoctrinate their kids wittingly or not. But isn’t this true of all belief systems and not just Christians? To me the difference in indoctrination and guidance is this – the encouragement of critical thinking and asking questions. I teach my kids about God and take them to church, but I would never shame them for asking questions and I want them to examine their beliefs as they grow and determine what they believe for themselves.
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@arch, “Of course, if in time, his prophecies didn’t come true, he would eventually be summarily fired.”
Or stoned to death ! 🙂
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Or, if the game were soccer or rugby, gang-kicked!
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I found THIS interesting:
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What a difference a “>” makes —
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@ bburleson
This is almost an oxymoron. What can you possibly teach them about ‘god’, and which god are you referring to?
By the time your children are old enough to utilize serious critical thought much of their worldview will have already been stamped on their subconscious, thus influencing their actual outlook on life, that will now include a belief that your god is not only real but the only god that counts.
As will every other ‘faith’ based doctrine.
You are living proof of this indoctrination and blatant lack of critical thought and yet struggle to recognise it.
There is little or no objectivity where religious belief is concerned, especially when children are involved.
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I think it’s safe to say that all children, everywhere, are to some extent victims of Stockholme Syndrome.
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Interesting questions.
As have already been said above, as to motives, it has to give a blanket motive. I for one like the book of Ecclesiastes and in it, the author could be said to have been writing a philosophical discourse on how he saw life. Many books I think had a political bent.
On question 2; I think most parents do not know better. If they did, I think they would expose their children to as many religious opinions as they have time for and at a time when they could make this decision on their own.
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I agree. It’s somewhat unavoidable, unfortunately.
That said, there are parents who stress the importance of asking questions, being open-minded, thinking for oneself, etc. There are religious parents who fit into this group, though I think the group is more usually populated with those who either aren’t religious or are only moderately religious. As Ruth said, if Heaven and Hell are on the line, how can you take the chance that your child might end up on the broad path that leads to destruction? It’s no wonder so many religious people teach their children these beliefs before they can be questioned.
So while it is indoctrination, and it is detrimental to the child, I also know that people do it with the best of intentions. It’s a sad situation.
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A very Christian member of my family posted this to her facebook page with the comment : I try to brainwash my children every. single. day.
http://www.thissweethomeblog.com/2013/10/14/why-you-should-brainwash-your-children/
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You may have just opened the floodgates, Ruth. Are you okay with people going there and commenting? I found this portion especially chilling:
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So. Scary.
The scary thing is I know people like this too. Although I’ve never heard them use the word brainwash with pride like that, wow…
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Dave,
It is terrifying.
Nate,
The blog-owner is not my family member. She just posted that entry to her fb page so have at it!
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I guess maybe one would call that facebook sharing.
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This hits on one of Ark’s main points in a lot of his posts which I agree with – what if the parents decide to fill their children with the idea that there is valor to strapping bombs on themselves and setting them off in public areas. That’s just one example of the scary things that children can be led into. Whether it is objectively immoral or not is irrelevant, it is scary and painful and I don’t want stuff like that in our world and luckily many other people don’t want it either.
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I couldn’t agree more. My comment over there is awaiting moderation, so it may never see the light of day. Here’s what I said:
You know, tell your children they’re beautiful; tell them they can do anything; tell them they’re lucky to have a brother, etc (as the author advocated). It’s true that the rest of the world will tell them they’re not good enough, smart enough, pretty enough. They need to be built up at home. But when it comes to things that are objectively true and things as important as reality, it doesn’t do them any favors to “brainwash” them.
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Nicely put. She may not post it, but at least she might read it.
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I try very hard to brainwash my children to not be a bully, to be thoughtful, to be polite, to not be a sucker, to listen to their mother and more.
I could say, “Look, when you get older, you decide if being mean or not is OK. What whatever TV you like, hange with whatever which friends you like so you can hear the various voices. I won’t choose for you.”
Ugly truth #1: We treat children like children.
Ugly truth #2: There are no universal morals.
Drawing the line is tough but there is no fixed line — no universal moral about where the line of freedoms we should grant out children. Sure, I draw the line at not threatening my children with violence if they disobey, but I do threaten them with limitations (is that violent — to some of my ‘unschool’ acquaintances).
It is these ugly truths that make conversation on this issue difficult. We all hate when people teach kids things we wouldn’t and use methods we wouldn’t.
I wish commentors on these policies would declare if they have kids — I have only two. Nate has three, right?
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@ Ark,
To further address your ‘question’ about benefit of religion (and thus indirectly of “brainwashing”), here is a link to a comparison I did on doing a similar analysis of drugs.
http://triangulations.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/religions-and-drugs-harm-vs-benefit/
Just in case you were really curious instead of just out to attack.
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I suspected that the comments over there would be moderated.
The post, itself, is littered with the specific Bible verses that relate to the reasons she “brainwashes”. Anyone who believes in the infallibility of the Bible, of course, is going to brainwash their children with it’s teachings because that same Bible explicitly teaches them to do so. I highly doubt your comment will have much affect on that with her because she is indoctrinated as well.
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@Ruth
Truly scary, but at least she’s using the right word for it instead of the verse/cliche “train up a child”.
My Pentecostal parents were such fanatics that any story about witches was evil, crystal balls were evil, horoscopes were evil, homosexuality, fornication, smoking, drinking and all drugs were evil. My parents rarely ever gave us kids any medicine, even after accidents, dental work, menstrual issues and bouts with the flu. We prayed, dammit! All the while abusing us was okay and my dad would watch gory horror films right in front of us, regardless of the nature of the film or our ages.
I was taught that if it is anything outside of the Bible it was evil, period. That was the end of the matter.
I don’t get into the Talmud, Bible or Koran with my little boys. I don’t really sit down and discuss religion with them too much. Grant it, in my Jesus days I led them both in a salvation prayer at two to three years old. We also went to Church often, prayed and read the Bible out loud together as a family quite a bit. When I look back at all of that, I clearly see the indoctrination. As mild as it all seemed to be in comparison with other Christian parents we knew over the years, we were still horribly brain washing them.
There are a few times when my husband and I will discuss religion with our kids (they’re five and eight BTW). It’s usually around Easter or Christmas when we do so. Sometimes we’ll talk about religion because we hear something about God or Jesus at their public school or on the local news. We’ve made it a point to not attend my oldest’s gifted program’s fall meeting at school because we went once and it reminded me of a Wednesday night Church service. My youngest one still refuses to let go of a Veggie Tales book and will not let me give away a small set of Precious Moments books. He’s also a fan of Toby Mac and will request to listen to his CD as he sleeps at night. Once in a while he asks me to play the Newsboys “God’s not dead (roaring like a lion)” video on Youtube for him.
I still have my boys’ dedication and little kid Bibles. I also have different versions of the Bible, The Pentateuch, Vine’s, Strong’s and maybe a couple of other Biblical/Christian reference books on our shelves, but they’re right next to our Dr. Seuss and JK Rowling sets.
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