I was having a discussion with a friend of mine the other day, and it started me on a certain train of thought about two topics in particular. I think they’re often points of misunderstanding between those who are religious and those who aren’t. I have my own thoughts about these two issues, but I’d really like to hear from the other nonbelievers who read this blog. As always, Christian commentary is welcome too.
- If the Bible’s claims about God, Jesus, miracles, etc are untrue, what were the motives of the people who wrote it?
- Many nonbelievers view Christians’ efforts at teaching their children and others as indoctrination. Is that a fair term? Why do we view it as indoctrination? And if that’s what it is, what is the point of it? Furthermore, are we indoctrinating our own children against religion? If we’re striving for open-mindedness, should we try to teach our children about religious perspectives as well?
Again, I have my own thoughts regarding these questions. I think they’re often asked (or unasked) in a way that carries some assumptions, and I’ve tried to leave those intact. So if you feel that the questions aren’t phrased correctly, feel free to address that in your response as well.
I almost never directly ask for comments, yet my posts usually get quite a few. It will be just my luck that no one comments now that I’m asking. 🙂
Finding Truth 
That’s true, Ruth.
@Sabio — Yes, I have 3 kids. Also, for what it’s worth, I thought your earlier points about possible benefits of religion were valid. I’m undecided on whether or not those same benefits can always be filled with secular things. I think one of the potential benefits of religion is that it keeps you in close contact with the other people in your congregation. My wife and I always went to small congregations (50-60 people, usually), and we went 3 times a week. You can’t help but get to know people when you see them that often. And if you’re sick, or you have a family emergency, there’s a strong support network there to help.
My wife and I have started doing some things with a secular group in our area, but we usually only see them once or twice a month. I’m sure they would offer to help us if we had something come up, but they aren’t as present in our lives yet as our old congregation used to be.
Anyway, I think all religions are false, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say that nothing good can come from them. I think most contain a mixture of good and bad, but the bad often far outweighs the good (as illustrated in CHope’s comment).
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When I was a Christian I followed her philosophy pretty much. I started praying for my step-daughter’s(might as well have been my daughter since she lived with us) husband when she was probably about ten. I also prayed for her to have wisdom and discernment in choosing a mate. We went to church when the doors were open. We encouraged morning quiet times and any questions she had were answered with “biblical wisdom”. In my hayday I was so heavenly minded I was no earthly good.
When she went to college she went through a phase where she questioned the teachings, but never the faith. We debated abortion rights and legislated morality at length . She was liberal and I was a right-wing nut.
It is my step-daughter, now 30 with three kids, who posted that to her facebook page. Now I’m considered a liberal and she’s turning into a right-wing nut. My how things change.
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@ Nate,
Thanx for agreeing with my “benefits of religions” comment. When a blog owner does not jump in on personal attacks, it almost feels like they are agreeing. I don’t allow personal attacks on my blog, nor in my home.
For secular things, my wife and I try to build local friends (Christian, Hindu and atheist) and try to meet regularly and intentionally help each other regularly. Not ideal. So we can see how religious communities are a better solution at times. But in the end, family is the best (if possible), of course. However, we don’t live near our nuclear families — as don’t most of our friends.
Since I think of “religions” as social/psychological functions and not “truth machines” or “philosophical systems”, saying “I think all religions are false” would make no sense for me, nor be useful in any meaningful way. Religions are agglutinations of complexities both in functions and in types of believers best understood socially, I think. Now, of course, arguing against those who approach religion doctrinally is a pleasure of mine too. But then, arguing about vehement political folks, sports fanatics, politically correct folks and more is fun too. When someone tries to pass off their practices as rational, reasonable and better, while not seeing through the mechanics of their own silliness, I jump in.
Funny, yesterday in our clinic I mentioned how Professional Football (USA) players are simply mercenaries and it offended almost everyone.
Concerning good or bad balance. All my Christian friends only use it to the good and their harm is minimal, whereas the way I see most Atheists arguing, well ….
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I commented, Ruth, but as you might expect:
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I also meant to add that I have friends who threw out anything that was remotely linked to witches, witchcraft, magic, crystal balls, etc. They even threw out Fantasia: Mickey Mouse The Sorcerer’s Apprentice.
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Before you grow old and gray – well, old – waiting for those floodgates to creak Nate, word to the wise, she moderates. I doubt that any contrary comment will ever see the light of day. There’s only one there now, and it’s singing her praises.
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Yeah, I ran into the same thing. Guess she’s brainwashing herself (and her readers) too! 🙂
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Yeah, the post is from October and the only thing there is one comment and two pingbacks so I feel certain she’s probably gotten other feedback she’s chosen to censor.
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Oh, I have no doubt. That topic is too hot to have attracted only one comment, and that one positive.
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You know what I find relief in? She only has one comment. If she had more positive comments surely she would have approved them.
Though a lot of people don’t want to fill in the little box giving out their names, email addresses, and such, and instead probably chose to “share” it on their favorite medium.
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I know you were talking to Sabio, here, but if I may:
My husband is from England and, while there are many Christians there (really people from all sorts of religions), they have a very ‘live and let live’ attitude towards it all. He is baffled here, having moved to the South in the U.S., by the open religious undertones in, well, just about everything. Upon first meeting people, complete strangers, often ask, “Where do you go to church?” It’s as though it’s a given that everybody goes to church. If you answer that you don’t attend regularly somewhere the next thing on the agenda is, “You really ought to come on out to ‘the really good church I go to’.”
One of the things I lost in becoming agnostic towards a god and atheist in practical living was a sense of community. I think that’s one of those things that might be regional. There isn’t a secular humanist organization in the city I currently live in and it’s considered a metropolis. A sense of community is the thing I miss the most about not going to church. Honestly, in this area, church people don’t associate much with not-church-people. And if they do it’s mostly to try to turn them into church people.
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@ Ruth,
And I”d wager that those secular humanist groups are very poor at forming the type of communities that many churches do. They certainly don’t have all the cognitive manipulations tools in their baskets that religions have. Sports and Politics are probably the closest secular bonding mechanisms among seculars. I contend that building family is key and then friends. Community is precious. I’d love to see seculars build health networks and counter mechanisms and so weaken religions downsides where they exist.
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Surely there are social groups based on hobbies, or other interests.
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She actually approved our comments!
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I had joined a meetup group that only had about three members in it about two years ago. The administrator disbanded it shortly after I joined. I just(and I do mean just now this very minute) re-checked the meetup website and lo and behold a new group has been started and it has 34 members! I just rejoined.
In answer to you suggestion: yes, there are but you wouldn’t believe the amount of religious proselytizing that goes on even within those. Since I’m not ‘out’ yet I haven’t figured out a way to avoid this without ‘outing’ myself.
“Mind your own business” seems kind of counter intuitive when you’re trying to make friends.
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@ archaeo,
The social groups based on hobbies are usually fair weather groups and not committed bonds of community — mainly in that such a thing is not their goal.
With my friends, I try to nurture our friendship by sharing activity instead of just dinner parties.
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I think she scoped things out over here first. But I don’t blame her. I’d think she’d want to know the people commenting were calm dissenters or hostiles.
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I agree
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@ Sabio.
The crux of the issue is the word ‘benefit’ and anything with an underlying negative dogma is not beneficial no matter what the superficial appearances may seem.
Such community bonding is insular and ultimately divisive, even among Christian congregations which regard other Christian churches as “not the right type of Christianity”.
The recent nonsense with ken Ham is the perfect example.
Similar scenarios are played out all the time in the more religious communities, the likes of which are found in the Southern States of USA ( traditional Bible Belt country).
In other religions too; and we are all aware of the devastating effects of the more militant Islamic sects that will not quibble when it comes to blowing to smithereens rival Islam sects.
What benefits are gleaned form morals such as these?
I strongly suggest you rethink your position and broaden your outlook, Sabio.
I stand by my original comment. All of it.
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The way I see it, it doesn’t mean that religion has no positive qualities, it’s that they’re often overshadowed by the negative ones. Just like meth makes you feel good, but its side effects obliterate any possible good it could bring.
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Are you sure you don’t want to rethink this metaphor, Nate?
In context of your post it is ripe to be torn to shreds, but because I like you so much maybe you want to delete it or use something else? 🙂
Lol! Just asking.
To respond. The premise of religion is bad, thus it will ultimately be bad.
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Ah, I’ll stick with it. But thanks for the offer 😉
I actually agree that it’s ultimately bad — I just think that Sabio was saying if we break it down into all its separate components, there are some elements in there that are good. I agree with that. Maybe a better analogy is this: there’s nothing wrong with metal. It can be used to make a car, a piece of medical equipment, or a bomb. Generally speaking, bombs are bad, but if you were to break it down into its components, no one would claim that metal is bad.
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There are still many people who believe Hitler did a good job in revitalizing Germany.
He established a…
potential community with the safety that provides
– a sense of identity
– a means of instilling morals using community
– hope, to make it through another day
– opportunity to serve others and reach out beyond yourself.
I hardly think these are good reasons to become a Nazi?
It is unrealistic to isolate individual components of religion and say these are benefits, as this is does not take in the true object of religion . One church may hand out food parcels , which is definitely beneficial to those who are hungry, but this is not a benefit of religion, per se and there are several organisations that do similar community work without the religious baggage.
You might have met your wife at church, and I suppose you could suggest that this was a benefit of religion.
There are good people within such communities, but this does not mean that the organisation is basically rotten.
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Oops
I actually think the 3 of us are pretty much in agreement on this, we were just talking about it in different ways.
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