Dear Kathy,
Since you graciously agreed (in our recent conversation) to let me present you with some examples of the Bible’s problems, I decided to do it in this way so it would have its own comment thread. As I’ve said, when I was a Christian, one strike against the Bible was not enough to shake my faith — maybe it only seemed problematic, maybe there was an explanation we hadn’t uncovered yet, maybe the historical accounts were wrong, etc. But as the problems began to mount up, I reached a point where I could no longer deny the fact that the Bible had actual errors.
A couple of suggestions before we begin. Try to be as open-minded about this as possible. As you go through these examples, ask yourself if God would allow such problems to exist in a message that he wanted all people to accept and believe? According to the Bible, whenever God sent someone a message, whether it was Pharaoh or Gideon or Nebuchadnezzar or Paul, they had no question whom it was from. They didn’t always follow it, as we see with people like Pharaoh and Solomon, but they didn’t question the source of the message or what it stated. So why would God operate differently today? Why would he want us to be so confused about his message that we’re able to question whether or not it’s really from him?
Another thing to keep in mind is that even if you come to the conclusion that the Bible has actual problems, that doesn’t mean you have to stop believing in God. There are a number of Christians who don’t believe in inerrancy. And even if you lose faith in the Christian god, that still doesn’t mean you have to stop believing in God. A number of people, including several of our founding fathers, were deists. I have a lot of sympathy for that view and plan to do a post on it soon.
Some of the items listed here will have links that provide additional information, especially when the issue is too detailed to list here. I hope that you’ll check out those links, since some of them are quite significant points. And regardless of how this article strikes you, I hope it will help serve as a great springboard to launch you into your own research.
Some of the Problems
Creation
The creation accounts in Genesis do not match what we’ve learned through science. This isn’t shocking news, but it bears looking into. Evolution and the Big Bang Theory had nothing to do with my deconversion, but I’ve learned more about both since leaving Christianity. It’s shocking how much misinformation I had been operating under. Not to say that all Christians are that way — that was simply my experience. But the evidence for both evolution and the Big Bang are far more substantial than I had ever realized. Two good resources for learning more about these issues are the following (though I’d also recommend checking out the recent Cosmos series, as well as some of the PBS NOVA specials):
Another problem with the creation accounts is that Genesis 1 says that plants and trees were made on the 3rd day, while man was made on the 6th. But Genesis 2:5-9 says that man was created before there were any plants or trees in the land. Also, the 1st chapter says that man was created after all the animals, but the 2nd chapter implies that it was the other way around. It seems strange that such discrepancies would exist only a chapter apart, but there are a number of textual clues that suggest the first 5 books of the Bible were assembled over a long period of time from various writings written by a number of different people. Many scholars believe that Genesis 1 and 2 represent two separate versions of the creation story that were both included because the compilers didn’t know which was more accurate. Whatever the reason, there’s no question that the differences exist and are hard to explain.
10 Plagues
During the 10 plagues, God afflicts all of Egypt’s livestock with a disease (Ex 9:1-7), and it specifies that it would affect the “horses, the donkeys, the camels, the herds, and the flocks.” We’re told that all of Egypt’s livestock died. But the later plague of boils was said to affect both man and beast (verse 10 of chapter 9). Maybe it meant non-livestock animals. But Ex 11:5 says that the death of the firstborn would also affect Egypt’s cattle, and in Exodus 14, Pharaoh pursues the Israelites with horses.
Hares Chew the Cud
Leviticus 11:6 tells us that hares chew the cud. They do not. Animals that chew the cud are called ruminants. When they eat plant matter, it goes to their first stomach to soften, and then it’s regurgitated to their mouth. They spend time re-chewing it, and then it is swallowed and fully digested. Ruminants (cows, sheep, goats, etc.) are recognizable because their chewing of the cud is very obvious. Hares (rabbits) don’t chew the cud; however, their mouths do move frequently, so it’s possible to see why some people may have assumed that they do chew the cud. Of course, God would know they didn’t, and this is why the passage is problematic. You can read more about this here.
Arphaxad
In the genealogy given in Genesis 11:10-12, we see that Noah fathered Shem and Shem fathered Arphaxad. At the age of 35, Arphaxad fathered Shelah. This information is confirmed in 1 Chron 1:18. But Luke 3:35-36 tells us that Arphaxad’s son was Cainan, and he was the father of Shelah.
Where does Luke get this information? It disagrees with the Old Testament, so who should we believe? Some have suggested that Genesis and 1 Chronicles simply left out Cainan for some reason. But why would they do that? To further complicate it, how could Cainan have fit in there? Genesis tells us that Arphaxad was 35 when he fathered Shelah. Does it really seem likely that Arphaxad became a grandfather by 35, especially when you consider the extreme old ages that people lived to at that time?
Another explanation is that some copyist messed up when copying Luke and Cainan is just a mistake. But this is not much better. First of all, the error would have needed to occur early for it to be in all our copies of Luke. Secondly, are we really comfortable saying that we have the inspired word of our creator, but it got messed up by some guy who wasn’t paying close attention? To me, that doesn’t lend a lot of credence to the idea of inspiration or inerrancy.
Instead, the most likely explanation is that Luke made a mistake. This, of course, would indicate that he was not inspired.
Problems in the Book of Daniel
In Daniel 5, the writer refers to Belshazzar as the son of Nebuchadnezzar 7 different times. Yet we know from multiple contemporary sources that Belshazzar’s father was Nabonidus, who was not related to Nebuchadnezzar. The same chapter says that Darius the Mede took over Babylon, but this person does not seem to have ever existed. Daniel says that he was the son of Ahaseurus, and in mentioning this, the author of Daniel indicates that he was thinking of a later ruler — the persian emperor Darius the Great, whose son was Ahaseurus. This post in particular goes into the problems surrounding the 5th chapter, but if you’d like to learn about the problems in the rest of the book, you can access each article in the series here.
Jairus’s Daughter
In Mark 5:23, Jairus finds Jesus and says that his daughter is at the point of death. While they’re on their way to the house, some of his servants find them on the way and say that she has died and there’s no point in troubling Jesus further.
However, in Matthew 9:18, Jairus already knows that his daughter has died, but tells Jesus that if he’ll lay his hands on her, she’ll live. This may seem like a minor difference, but honestly, there’s only one scenario that could be true. Either the girl was already dead, or she wasn’t. And if Jairus already knew she was dead, then there was no point in his servants coming to tell him that (so of course, they don’t appear in Matthew’s account).
The Centurion
This is similar to the previous issue. Matthew and Luke both record a centurion who asks Jesus to heal his sick servant. Matthew 8:5-13 says that the centurion himself comes before Jesus to ask for help. Luke 7:1-10 says that the Jewish elders went on his behalf, and then he sent servants to follow up. In Luke, Jesus never speaks to, or even sees, the centurion at all.
Hight Priest
In Mark 2:23-28, Jesus talks about the occasion from the Old Testament when David ate the showbread, which Jesus said was in the days of Abiathar the high priest. However, in 1 Samuel 21:1-6, it appears that Ahimelech was the high priest. Some have tried to answer this problem by saying that Abiathar was alive during that particular episode, so Jesus’ statement is still true. But that’s obviously not the intent of the passage. After all, we would correct anyone who said that the tragedy of 9/11 occurred during the days of President Barack Obama. He may have been alive at the time, but that event did not happen while he was President.
430 Years
Galatians 3:16-17 says this:
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.
Here, Paul says that the law came 430 years after the promises were made to Abraham. But in Exodus 12:40-41, we see:
Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt was 430 years. At the end of the 430 years, to the very day, all the LORD’s divisions left Egypt.
If the Israelites were in Egypt 430 years, then there could not have been 430 years between Abraham’s promises and the law. God made the promises to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3, and as we read on through Genesis, we see that Abraham had no children at this time. Later, he had a son named Isaac. When Isaac was 60 years old, he had Jacob (Gen 25:24-26), and Jacob had 12 sons that produced the 12 tribes of Israel. Already, we can see that some time has passed since Abraham received the promise. Once Jacob’s sons were all grown with families of their own, they finally settled in Egypt. Jacob was 130 years old at this time (Gen 47:9), and this marks the beginning of that 430 year period that the Israelites spent in Egypt.
That means that the time between the promise to Abraham and the giving of the law was actually over 600 years. So why did Paul say 430 years? I think it’s obvious that this was a simple mistake. He remembered the 430 year figure because that’s how much time the Israelites spent in Egypt, and so he simply misspoke. It’s not a big deal… except that he’s supposed to be inspired by God.
Jesus’ Birth
There are a number of issues surrounding Jesus’ birth. First, Matthew’s and Luke’s accounts contradict one another on virtually all the details, which you can read about here. Secondly, Matthew seems to invent an episode where Herod kills all the children in Bethlehem who are 2 and under, causing Mary, Joseph, and Jesus to flee to Egypt (instead of just returning home to Nazareth, because only Luke says that they started in Nazareth). Matthew does this in order to “fulfill” some Old Testament passages that actually have nothing to do with Jesus or killing babies. You can read about Matthew’s misuse of the Old Testament here — it’s quite blatant.
The Virgin Birth is one of the most famous aspects of Jesus’ story, and it was supposedly done in fulfillment of a prophecy from Isaiah. But it turns out that Isaiah was prophesying no such thing — he was talking about an event that was happening in his own time, and Matthew (once again) just appropriated the “prophecy” for his own devices. You can read all the details here.
Another problem concerning Jesus’ birth narratives is that Matthew and Luke both offer genealogies for Jesus, but they are completely different from one another. Worse, they don’t match the genealogies listed in the Old Testament, either. And Matthew claims that there was a pattern in the number of generations between Abraham and David, between David and the Babylonian captivity, and between the Babylonian captivity and Christ. But to get this neat division, he is forced to leave out some names. In other words, that pattern didn’t happen. You can read more about that here.
The Triumphal Entry
While not as blatant as most of these other issues, when Matthew recounts Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem, he once again borrows from the Old Testament, but seems to make a mistake in his implementation. See here for more info.
Judas’ Death
Judas is well known for being the disciple that betrayed Jesus, but what’s not as well known is there are two different accounts of his death, and it’s very hard to reconcile them. According to Matthew, Judas threw his money down at the chief priests’ feet and went out and hanged himself. We’re not told where he did this. The priests then take the money, and instead of putting it back in the treasury (since it’s blood money), they buy a field to use for burying strangers. Because they bought the field with this money, it’s called the “Field of Blood.”
According to Acts, Judas bought a field with his money (we’re not told that he was remorseful), and he somehow fell down, bursting open in the middle and bleeding to death. The field was called “Field of Blood” after that because of the manner in which Judas died.
To make things more complicated, Matthew (of course) says that this happened in accordance with Jeremiah’s prophecy, but there’s nothing in Jeremiah that matches up. The closest reference comes from Zechariah, not Jeremiah.
These issues really complicate the notion of divine inspiration, and you can read more about them here.
The Crucifixion
There are several big problems with the way the gospels record the events of Jesus’ death, including the fact that different times of day are given for it, and even different days altogether. You can read more about this here.
The Resurrection
There are also a number of problems concerning the resurrection, some minor, some major. They’re too involved to get into here, but you can read all about them here and here.
The Problem of Hell
The notion of Hell is fraught with problems. It might even surprise you to learn that the Bible’s teachings on the afterlife change dramatically between the Old and New Testaments. I go into detail about Hell’s problems here, here, and here.
The Problem of Evil
Another huge problem for Christianity is the problem of evil, which I talk about here. This post also addresses the “problem of Heaven.”
The Bible’s Morality
While a number of people believe that the Christian god is the source of all morality, the Bible is actually filled with some monstrous acts that are either commanded by God, done with his consent, or carried out by him directly. I talk about some specific examples here, and I address some of the common responses to them here.
Conclusion
Kathy, there are a number of other examples that could be given, including the prophecy of Tyre that we’ve been discussing. But to me, these are some of the most significant and clear-cut problems. We could try to manufacture explanations for every one of these — some might be more believable than others. But why should we have to? If a perfect God inspired this book, why should it contain so many discrepancies? And honestly, some of these issues can’t be explained. They’re just wrong. The problems go well beyond internal contradictions and unfulfilled prophecies. There are problems of authorship, problems with the doctrines, and problems with the way the texts were written, transcribed, and compiled.
I’m sure you’ve spent your time as a Christian trying to reach those who are lost. You’ve always believed that Christianity is truth, and it’s the one thing that everyone needs. But could it be that Christianity is just as false as every other religion in the world? And if that’s the case, wouldn’t you want to leave it behind? When one is dedicated to finding truth, they have to be prepared to follow it wherever it leads. It’s not always easy or popular. It’s not even a guarantee that you’re right. All it means is that you follow the evidence where it leads to the best of your ability. If you find out that you’re wrong about something, you adjust course when the evidence dictates. If God exists, and if he’s righteous, what more could he ask for than that? I’ll close with my favorite quote:
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
— Marcus Aurelius
Finding Truth 
William, to me, a liberal is someone who adheres to all the beliefs & political views that are anti God/ anti Christian.
I realize there might be a different def. in the dictionary but in today’s world, I believe my def. is more correct. Look at ANY exclusively liberal belief and you’ll see it directly contradicts the Bible’s teachings.
I could be wrong about assuming you are a liberal, but I make these assumptions all the time, and haven’t been wrong yet.
“didnt mean to ignore your claim. I claim the opposite. And hope doesnt equal reality, ”
I know you claim the opposite William.. I’m practically BEGGING now to know the details of this “opposite” belief that atheists have.. so we can see whose is more rational.
And I believe you when you say you believe I’m not being objective.. that’s fine.. the only way to determine who is correct is to actually address the points/ specifics.
My research is based on all the knowledge I have of the Bible AND outside the Bible. I don’t know how anyone can be more objective. I ask questions.. but I don’t see atheists doing the same.. only trying to “debunk” other’s beliefs. It STILL leaves the ultimate questions unanswered/ ignored. And it, in my opinion, reveals the level of objectivity present.
LikeLike
I am really curious, Kathy, to know why you make this statement: Look at ANY exclusively liberal belief and you’ll see it directly contradicts the Bible’s teachings.
What exactly are the “liberal” beliefs that you see contradict the bible’s teachings?
Also, you say you base your knowledge on research “outside the bible.” Would you be willing to name of few of these resources?
LikeLike
. “I ask questions.. but I don’t see atheists doing the same.. only trying to “debunk” other’s beliefs.” – kathy
if this is how you really feel, then you havent been paying attention.
“I know you claim the opposite William.. I’m practically BEGGING now to know the details of this “opposite” belief that atheists have.. so we can see whose is more rational.”
well, what do you mean exactly?
Like:
Chritianity:
1) belief in an afterlife, because a book says, and because we;’re conscious now, so we must always be conscious.
Atheism/Agnosticism:
1) no belief in an afterlife. Do you remember what it was like before you were born? It’ll probably be like that.
Christianity:
2) a perfect god did not write a perfect book, but instead told people to write his perfect book, who then told us that god told them to do so. And it’s the way to show ourselves approved and it teaches that we aught to obey god rather than man.
Atheism/Agnosticism:
2) no book. nothing perfect. Rely on science. not that science is perfect, but it tries to learn and correct itself. Plus, we see tangible and real benefits of science.
Christianity:
3) no good enough to be good, but must also believe in the right guy the right way.
Atheism/Agnosticism:
3) it’s good enough to be good.
you mean stuff like this?
LikeLike
“you mean stuff like this?”
sigh.. no, that’s not what I mean.. i mean the opposite of us being created beings.. if we aren’t created beings what other explanation do you/ atheists adhere to? THAT opposite.
LikeLike
“I am really curious, Kathy, to know why you make this statement: Look at ANY exclusively liberal belief and you’ll see it directly contradicts the Bible’s teachings.
What exactly are the “liberal” beliefs that you see contradict the bible’s teachings?
Also, you say you base your knowledge on research “outside the bible.” Would you be willing to name of few of these resources?”
Nan, all liberal beliefs that conservatives don’t agree with are the beliefs I refer to. Abortion, gay marriage are 2 major examples.. another is support of political policies that strip away freedoms.
My research outside the Bible includes archaeological discoveries, fulfilled prophecies supported by outside evidence, outside historical records that verify things inside the Bible.. and just simply looking up.. and all around us.. that’s some of the very best evidence.
LikeLike
“And those who are gullible believe & give their lives based on the word of a SINGLE person.. Muhammed.. a pedophile and a murderer. THAT’S gullible.”
Lord Genocide (aka Yahweh) killed everything on Earth save for a boatload of animals and eight people.
Abraham married his sister Sarai and pimped her out to two kings. (Gen 10:10-20, Gen 20 ) impregnated her maidservant (Gen 16:4) and then banished Hagar and his son Ishmael to the desert with only a bit of food and a skin of water (Gen 21:8-20). Yet Gen 15:6, Gen 15:22, Rom 4:3 and Gal 3:6 “credited it to him as a righteousness” because he believed God.
Lot impregnated both his daughters in a cave (Gen 19:19-37), yet 2 Peter 2:7-8 claims he was “righteous”—three times!
Moses killed an Egyptian and thousands of Israelites. Joshua killed Canaanites.
David impregnated another man’s woman and had him killed in battle (2 Sam 11)., yet God considered him “a man after my own heart” (Acts 13:22, 1 Sam 13:14) who “kept my commandments and followed me with all his heart, doing only that which was right in my eyes.” (1 Kings 3:14, 14:8)
Lord Genocide made a bet with Satan to see if they could break righteous Job’s faith by destroying his health wealth and family.
Pot, meet kettle!
Who in their right mind would want to dedicate their life to worshiping the tyrant found within the pages of the Bible?
LikeLike
@Kathy
* Good! Anything anti-god or anti-Christian can only be encouraged, especially if it recognises personal freedom, and personal responsibility that is not behoven to a god found in a grotty little rag.
The bible contains some of the most disgusting and heinous examples of moral behaviour imaginable and much of it sanctioned or directly commanded by the despotic, tyrannical self-centered egotistical SOB called Yahweh.
Anyone who adheres to this rubbish and genuflects to this meglomaniacal make believe monster is either (sadly) indoctrinated or simply not right in the head.
LikeLike
@Kathy
Hi Kathy, there seems to be some confusion here. Nowhere in the bible does it outlaw abortion. In fact, if you actually read the bible you’d see that the Middle Eastern god Christians worship is quite definitively pro-abortion, personally and passionately performing many terminations and ordering countless more.
In Hosea 9:11-16, the son of Beeri prays for his god to intervene in earthly affairs and wreak havoc on the unborn of an entire population. “Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts… Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.” To paraphrase, Hosea pleads that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children, to which the Christian god dutifully obeys and makes all their unborn children miscarry. Now, terminating a pregnancy unnaturally is unmistakably what we today call an abortion.
In Hosea 13:16 the Christian god is utterly diabolical as he dashes to “pieces” the infants of Samaria and orders “their pregnant women [to be] ripped open by swords.” This, self-evidently, describes mass abortions of such barbarity that it’s hard to even fathom.
In Numbers 5:11-21 a bizarre and abusive ritual is described which is to be performed by a priest on any woman suspected of adultery; a ritual which results in an abortion. In the text a potion is mixed and the accused woman is brought before the priest who says, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband may the Lord cause you to become a curseamong your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.” As clear as day this is a definitive description of an induced abortion; an act where poison is forcibly given to ruin the foetus and rid a woman of another man’s child.
In Numbers 31:17 Moses commands “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words, kill all women that are or could be pregnant, which is plainly abortion for the foetus.
In 2 Kings 15:16 the Christian god again orders pregnant women to be “ripped open,” which is both abortionand homicide on a mass scale. “At that time Menahem destroyed the town of Tappuah and all the surrounding countryside as far as Tirzah, because its citizens refused to surrender. He killed the entire population and ripped open the pregnant women.”
In total there are in fact twenty-six separate instances where this Middle Eastern god performs abortions on demand, conducts infanticide (the intentional killing of newborns), and murders toddlers en masse; acts recounted from 1 Samuel 15:3 to Isaiah 13:15-18 where this god not only smashes babies to death but also orders the rape of their mothers. In a word the Christian god is a heinous baby-killing, foetus-destroying monster, and as it turns out his son is also no friend of the unborn. In the Gospel of the Egyptians Jesus not only demands total abstinence but preaches for the outright separation of the sexes, stating that “sorrow” and what he repeatedly calls “error” will remain with man for just “As long as women bear children.” The statement is quite explicit: don’t ever get pregnant, and if you do then abortion is better than birth.
I hope this helps.
All the best
LikeLike
So your “outside research” basically includes resources that back up what the bible says.
“Liberals” also believe in helping the less fortunate (something the BIBLE teaches). IMO, believers tend to focus primarily on the issues you mentioned and fail to see that many of the core beliefs of liberals are much more bible-focused than conservatives care to admit.
As far as looking up and around me, I feel a profound wonder and awe, but I do not attribute it to some preconceived idea of God. But then, that’s where you and I (and many of the people on this blog) differ.
LikeLike
Jesus Was a Liberal
On Separation of Church & State
Paying Taxes:
Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar?s; and unto God the things that are God?s.” (Matthew 22:21, Mark 12:17, Luke 20:25)
Public Prayer & Displays of Faith:
And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.”(Matthew 6:5-7)
“Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. They devour widows? houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.” (Mark 12:38-40, Luke 20:46-47)
LikeLike
Jesus Was a Liberal
Healthcare Reform:
“Be a good Samaritan” (Luke 10:30-37)
…plus he performed a countless number of healings for free.
Immigration:
“Love your neighbor as yourself.” (Matthew 22:39, Mark 12:31)
“I was a stranger and you took me in.” (Matthew 25:35)
On Foreign Policy:
Make Peace, Not War!
“Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.” (Matthew 5:9)
“Resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.” (Matthew 5:39)
“Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despite-fully use you, and persecute you.” (Matthew 5:44, Luke 6:27-31)
On Capital Punishment:
“If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to cast a stone.” (John 8:7)
“Thou shalt not ki11.” (Matthew 5:21)
On Justice:
“Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.” (Matthew 5:7)
“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (Matthew 6:15)
“Do not judge, lest you too be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” (Matthew 7:1-2)
“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.” (Luke 6:37)
“And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.” (Matthew 6:12)
LikeLike
Jesus Was a Liberal
On Wealth, Greed and Monetary Policy:
“And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.” (Matthew 6:12)
“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.” (Matthew 6:19)
“You cannot serve both God and Money.” (Matthew 6:24)
“Truly, I say unto you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 19:23)
“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. (Mark 10:25, Luke 18:25)
“But woe to you who are rich,for you have already received your comfort.” (Luke 6:24)
“Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man?s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.” (Luke 12:15)
“Sell your possessions and give to the poor.” (Luke 12:33)
“Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.” (Mark 10:21, Luke 18:22)
On Social Policy:
“Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.” (Matthew 5:42)
“So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you.” (Matthew 7:12)
“If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.” (Matthew 19:21)
“Love your neighbor as yourself.” (Matthew 22:39)
“I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you took me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Mathew 25:35-36)
“But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.” (Luke 14:13-14)
LikeLike
Very well put, Ron. 🙂 You just expanded quite nicely on what I was referencing.
LikeLike
Ron, you said:
“Pot, meet kettle!
Who in their right mind would want to dedicate their life to worshiping the tyrant found within the pages of the Bible?”
All your comment did was show how MANY different people have witnessed to the truth of the Bible, instead of one (Muhammed).. as I pointed out… and it reminded us that God has the SOVEREIGN right to take what He has created.. He’s just not in the same category as Muhammed.
It’s not reasonable to believe a single person’s claims who is a murderer and a pedophile.
All those people you referenced were not perfect, I wouldn’t try to claim otherwise.. which, is again one of the central messages of the Bible.. that we are sinners and need saving. But those people loved God and wanted to obey Him. Muhammed created his OWN “god”.. which was pretty much himself. This is nothing new with humans.. every faith is based on one man’s creation, where they essentially receive worship… which again is not the situation with the God of the Bible.
I know atheists have a strong desire to make God a “tyrant” etc.. but He gave the ultimate sacrifice for us.. no tyrant would do this. Somehow this part of the Bible ALWAYS gets ignored.. like so many other things that are inconvenient to the narrative and desire to set themselves against God due to pride.
LikeLike
“Good! Anything anti-god or anti-Christian can only be encouraged, especially if it recognises personal freedom, and personal responsibility ..”
Yes.. encourage the slaughter of innocent human beings… nothing “disgusting and heinous” about that!
And God gave us free will.. aka FREEDOM… and personal responsibility.
You don’t understand the messages of the OT.. you choose to see all the horrible things and blame as many of those horrible things on God as you possibly can. You aren’t interested in anything else.
LikeLike
“NO in John 1 he wasn’t. again its just not the same account. Sorry.”
You’ve just proven my point – it’s NOT the same account, it’s contradicts the synoptics.
LikeLike
“And my statement that there is no other rational explanation, in a DEBATE forum.. is a challenge.. to ANYONE who disagrees. I find it very revealing that no one took up that challenge this time or ANY other time I’ve made it.”
It’s one thing to hold a position, quite another to imply you are so closed-minded that no other rational explanation is even possible.
Are you honestly saying that you were unaware that Moses didn’t write the first five books of the Bible?
As for evidence, did you not read my quotation from Biblical archaeologist William G. Dever, raised in religion, who became an atheist after spending 35 years in the Levant, excavating Biblical sites?
And did you not watch the video I added, from Biblical archaeologist Israel Finklestein?
If not, why would I provide more evidence if you haven’t bothered to examine what I have already given you?
And you’re right about one thing, you didn’t handle it very well.
LikeLike
@Kathy,
You said:
William, to me, a liberal is someone who adheres to all the beliefs & political views that are anti God/ anti Christian.
I realize there might be a different def. in the dictionary but in today’s world, I believe my def. is more correct. *Look at ANY exclusively liberal belief and you’ll see it directly contradicts the Bible’s teachings.
What do you make of the many people who wear the Christian label who support a woman’s right to choose and gay marriage? Furthermore, I’m a big proponent of keeping our freedoms, but how is having them stripped away anti-God? Every teaching I can find on the subject within the Bible basically says to follow God no matter what lot in life you were given, whether slave or free. It does encourage slaves that if they can obtain their freedom there’s nothing wrong in that, but it doesn’t guarantee freedom.
LikeLike
“Sigh…catch you guys later or not.”
Here’s a plan: make it just a little bit later than not —
LikeLike
Kathy, let’s think about God’s sacrifice of his son. Jesus knew exactly what awaited him after his death — he would reign in Heaven. No other person has ever had that kind of knowledge when facing death. He did not have to experience the fear of oblivion that everyone else experiences. And while death by crucifixion is horrible, there are worse and more painful ways to die as well. Jesus had a really, really bad day.
What’s worse is that Jesus’ death was completely unnecessary. God was only saving us from himself — why not just implement a forgiveness plan that didn’t require human sacrifice and suffering? It shows that he’s really no different from the other Canaanite gods like Molech.
It’s funny to me that you are so dismissive of Islam while thinking your own religion is completely rational and well-supported. Really think for a moment about what it would be like if you had been born in Saudi Arabia. No doubt, you’d be a fervent believer in Allah and view Christians as the infidel. Can’t you see how impervious to evidence everyone’s beliefs are? It takes real work to try to strip away the preconceptions we’re given when we’re young and look at things objectively. It also takes real compassion for those who differ from us.
LikeLike
“Yes, that is my claim.. it is evidence of their firm belief, which is evidence (however compelling) for the truth of the Bible. My claim is that it is VERY compelling evidence.”
And Nate’s claim, as well as my own, was that people in the grip of religious mania can give their lives willingly for a multitude of reasons, proving the validity of nothing except the dangers of religious mania.
LikeLike
“All your comment did was show how MANY different people have witnessed to the truth of the Bible, instead of one (Muhammed).. as I pointed out… and it reminded us that God has the SOVEREIGN right to take what He has created.. He’s just not in the same category as Muhammed.”
They’re all FICTIONAL characters, Kathy. Stories made up by superstitious and scientifically illiterate men trying to make sense of their universe, and/or scribes wishing to exploit others… just like Mo, Joseph Smith and Ron L Hubbard.
The god of the OT doesn’t exist, because it’s a logical contradiction from start to finish.
LikeLike
It’s funny to me that you are so dismissive of Islam while thinking your own religion is completely rational and well-supported. Really think for a moment about what it would be like if you had been born in Saudi Arabia. No doubt, you’d be a fervent believer in Allah and view Christians as the infidel.
I have little doubt that any contradictions, discrepancies, errors we think we might be able to come up with a Muslim apologist would be able to use their commentaries, maps, books, and other materials to reconcile and harmonize their sacred text as well.
LikeLike
Yes, Arch is exactly right. Whether people give their lives willingly or through unwilling martyrdom is irrelevant — the point is that they believe so strongly they’re willing to give up the only life they have. That shows true conviction, whether you agree with their reasons or not. But conviction alone does not make one’s beliefs true. And it’s important to know that while it’s often claimed that the original disciples were martyrs, there’s not a lot of good evidence to support this. Most if not all of these stories are legends — in some cases, there are different stories for the same disciple.
LikeLike
I think you’re absolutely right, Ruth. In fact, it was this realization years ago that helped me start to question my own beliefs more dispassionately.
LikeLike