Dear Kathy,
Since you graciously agreed (in our recent conversation) to let me present you with some examples of the Bible’s problems, I decided to do it in this way so it would have its own comment thread. As I’ve said, when I was a Christian, one strike against the Bible was not enough to shake my faith — maybe it only seemed problematic, maybe there was an explanation we hadn’t uncovered yet, maybe the historical accounts were wrong, etc. But as the problems began to mount up, I reached a point where I could no longer deny the fact that the Bible had actual errors.
A couple of suggestions before we begin. Try to be as open-minded about this as possible. As you go through these examples, ask yourself if God would allow such problems to exist in a message that he wanted all people to accept and believe? According to the Bible, whenever God sent someone a message, whether it was Pharaoh or Gideon or Nebuchadnezzar or Paul, they had no question whom it was from. They didn’t always follow it, as we see with people like Pharaoh and Solomon, but they didn’t question the source of the message or what it stated. So why would God operate differently today? Why would he want us to be so confused about his message that we’re able to question whether or not it’s really from him?
Another thing to keep in mind is that even if you come to the conclusion that the Bible has actual problems, that doesn’t mean you have to stop believing in God. There are a number of Christians who don’t believe in inerrancy. And even if you lose faith in the Christian god, that still doesn’t mean you have to stop believing in God. A number of people, including several of our founding fathers, were deists. I have a lot of sympathy for that view and plan to do a post on it soon.
Some of the items listed here will have links that provide additional information, especially when the issue is too detailed to list here. I hope that you’ll check out those links, since some of them are quite significant points. And regardless of how this article strikes you, I hope it will help serve as a great springboard to launch you into your own research.
Some of the Problems
Creation
The creation accounts in Genesis do not match what we’ve learned through science. This isn’t shocking news, but it bears looking into. Evolution and the Big Bang Theory had nothing to do with my deconversion, but I’ve learned more about both since leaving Christianity. It’s shocking how much misinformation I had been operating under. Not to say that all Christians are that way — that was simply my experience. But the evidence for both evolution and the Big Bang are far more substantial than I had ever realized. Two good resources for learning more about these issues are the following (though I’d also recommend checking out the recent Cosmos series, as well as some of the PBS NOVA specials):
Another problem with the creation accounts is that Genesis 1 says that plants and trees were made on the 3rd day, while man was made on the 6th. But Genesis 2:5-9 says that man was created before there were any plants or trees in the land. Also, the 1st chapter says that man was created after all the animals, but the 2nd chapter implies that it was the other way around. It seems strange that such discrepancies would exist only a chapter apart, but there are a number of textual clues that suggest the first 5 books of the Bible were assembled over a long period of time from various writings written by a number of different people. Many scholars believe that Genesis 1 and 2 represent two separate versions of the creation story that were both included because the compilers didn’t know which was more accurate. Whatever the reason, there’s no question that the differences exist and are hard to explain.
10 Plagues
During the 10 plagues, God afflicts all of Egypt’s livestock with a disease (Ex 9:1-7), and it specifies that it would affect the “horses, the donkeys, the camels, the herds, and the flocks.” We’re told that all of Egypt’s livestock died. But the later plague of boils was said to affect both man and beast (verse 10 of chapter 9). Maybe it meant non-livestock animals. But Ex 11:5 says that the death of the firstborn would also affect Egypt’s cattle, and in Exodus 14, Pharaoh pursues the Israelites with horses.
Hares Chew the Cud
Leviticus 11:6 tells us that hares chew the cud. They do not. Animals that chew the cud are called ruminants. When they eat plant matter, it goes to their first stomach to soften, and then it’s regurgitated to their mouth. They spend time re-chewing it, and then it is swallowed and fully digested. Ruminants (cows, sheep, goats, etc.) are recognizable because their chewing of the cud is very obvious. Hares (rabbits) don’t chew the cud; however, their mouths do move frequently, so it’s possible to see why some people may have assumed that they do chew the cud. Of course, God would know they didn’t, and this is why the passage is problematic. You can read more about this here.
Arphaxad
In the genealogy given in Genesis 11:10-12, we see that Noah fathered Shem and Shem fathered Arphaxad. At the age of 35, Arphaxad fathered Shelah. This information is confirmed in 1 Chron 1:18. But Luke 3:35-36 tells us that Arphaxad’s son was Cainan, and he was the father of Shelah.
Where does Luke get this information? It disagrees with the Old Testament, so who should we believe? Some have suggested that Genesis and 1 Chronicles simply left out Cainan for some reason. But why would they do that? To further complicate it, how could Cainan have fit in there? Genesis tells us that Arphaxad was 35 when he fathered Shelah. Does it really seem likely that Arphaxad became a grandfather by 35, especially when you consider the extreme old ages that people lived to at that time?
Another explanation is that some copyist messed up when copying Luke and Cainan is just a mistake. But this is not much better. First of all, the error would have needed to occur early for it to be in all our copies of Luke. Secondly, are we really comfortable saying that we have the inspired word of our creator, but it got messed up by some guy who wasn’t paying close attention? To me, that doesn’t lend a lot of credence to the idea of inspiration or inerrancy.
Instead, the most likely explanation is that Luke made a mistake. This, of course, would indicate that he was not inspired.
Problems in the Book of Daniel
In Daniel 5, the writer refers to Belshazzar as the son of Nebuchadnezzar 7 different times. Yet we know from multiple contemporary sources that Belshazzar’s father was Nabonidus, who was not related to Nebuchadnezzar. The same chapter says that Darius the Mede took over Babylon, but this person does not seem to have ever existed. Daniel says that he was the son of Ahaseurus, and in mentioning this, the author of Daniel indicates that he was thinking of a later ruler — the persian emperor Darius the Great, whose son was Ahaseurus. This post in particular goes into the problems surrounding the 5th chapter, but if you’d like to learn about the problems in the rest of the book, you can access each article in the series here.
Jairus’s Daughter
In Mark 5:23, Jairus finds Jesus and says that his daughter is at the point of death. While they’re on their way to the house, some of his servants find them on the way and say that she has died and there’s no point in troubling Jesus further.
However, in Matthew 9:18, Jairus already knows that his daughter has died, but tells Jesus that if he’ll lay his hands on her, she’ll live. This may seem like a minor difference, but honestly, there’s only one scenario that could be true. Either the girl was already dead, or she wasn’t. And if Jairus already knew she was dead, then there was no point in his servants coming to tell him that (so of course, they don’t appear in Matthew’s account).
The Centurion
This is similar to the previous issue. Matthew and Luke both record a centurion who asks Jesus to heal his sick servant. Matthew 8:5-13 says that the centurion himself comes before Jesus to ask for help. Luke 7:1-10 says that the Jewish elders went on his behalf, and then he sent servants to follow up. In Luke, Jesus never speaks to, or even sees, the centurion at all.
Hight Priest
In Mark 2:23-28, Jesus talks about the occasion from the Old Testament when David ate the showbread, which Jesus said was in the days of Abiathar the high priest. However, in 1 Samuel 21:1-6, it appears that Ahimelech was the high priest. Some have tried to answer this problem by saying that Abiathar was alive during that particular episode, so Jesus’ statement is still true. But that’s obviously not the intent of the passage. After all, we would correct anyone who said that the tragedy of 9/11 occurred during the days of President Barack Obama. He may have been alive at the time, but that event did not happen while he was President.
430 Years
Galatians 3:16-17 says this:
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.
Here, Paul says that the law came 430 years after the promises were made to Abraham. But in Exodus 12:40-41, we see:
Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt was 430 years. At the end of the 430 years, to the very day, all the LORD’s divisions left Egypt.
If the Israelites were in Egypt 430 years, then there could not have been 430 years between Abraham’s promises and the law. God made the promises to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3, and as we read on through Genesis, we see that Abraham had no children at this time. Later, he had a son named Isaac. When Isaac was 60 years old, he had Jacob (Gen 25:24-26), and Jacob had 12 sons that produced the 12 tribes of Israel. Already, we can see that some time has passed since Abraham received the promise. Once Jacob’s sons were all grown with families of their own, they finally settled in Egypt. Jacob was 130 years old at this time (Gen 47:9), and this marks the beginning of that 430 year period that the Israelites spent in Egypt.
That means that the time between the promise to Abraham and the giving of the law was actually over 600 years. So why did Paul say 430 years? I think it’s obvious that this was a simple mistake. He remembered the 430 year figure because that’s how much time the Israelites spent in Egypt, and so he simply misspoke. It’s not a big deal… except that he’s supposed to be inspired by God.
Jesus’ Birth
There are a number of issues surrounding Jesus’ birth. First, Matthew’s and Luke’s accounts contradict one another on virtually all the details, which you can read about here. Secondly, Matthew seems to invent an episode where Herod kills all the children in Bethlehem who are 2 and under, causing Mary, Joseph, and Jesus to flee to Egypt (instead of just returning home to Nazareth, because only Luke says that they started in Nazareth). Matthew does this in order to “fulfill” some Old Testament passages that actually have nothing to do with Jesus or killing babies. You can read about Matthew’s misuse of the Old Testament here — it’s quite blatant.
The Virgin Birth is one of the most famous aspects of Jesus’ story, and it was supposedly done in fulfillment of a prophecy from Isaiah. But it turns out that Isaiah was prophesying no such thing — he was talking about an event that was happening in his own time, and Matthew (once again) just appropriated the “prophecy” for his own devices. You can read all the details here.
Another problem concerning Jesus’ birth narratives is that Matthew and Luke both offer genealogies for Jesus, but they are completely different from one another. Worse, they don’t match the genealogies listed in the Old Testament, either. And Matthew claims that there was a pattern in the number of generations between Abraham and David, between David and the Babylonian captivity, and between the Babylonian captivity and Christ. But to get this neat division, he is forced to leave out some names. In other words, that pattern didn’t happen. You can read more about that here.
The Triumphal Entry
While not as blatant as most of these other issues, when Matthew recounts Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem, he once again borrows from the Old Testament, but seems to make a mistake in his implementation. See here for more info.
Judas’ Death
Judas is well known for being the disciple that betrayed Jesus, but what’s not as well known is there are two different accounts of his death, and it’s very hard to reconcile them. According to Matthew, Judas threw his money down at the chief priests’ feet and went out and hanged himself. We’re not told where he did this. The priests then take the money, and instead of putting it back in the treasury (since it’s blood money), they buy a field to use for burying strangers. Because they bought the field with this money, it’s called the “Field of Blood.”
According to Acts, Judas bought a field with his money (we’re not told that he was remorseful), and he somehow fell down, bursting open in the middle and bleeding to death. The field was called “Field of Blood” after that because of the manner in which Judas died.
To make things more complicated, Matthew (of course) says that this happened in accordance with Jeremiah’s prophecy, but there’s nothing in Jeremiah that matches up. The closest reference comes from Zechariah, not Jeremiah.
These issues really complicate the notion of divine inspiration, and you can read more about them here.
The Crucifixion
There are several big problems with the way the gospels record the events of Jesus’ death, including the fact that different times of day are given for it, and even different days altogether. You can read more about this here.
The Resurrection
There are also a number of problems concerning the resurrection, some minor, some major. They’re too involved to get into here, but you can read all about them here and here.
The Problem of Hell
The notion of Hell is fraught with problems. It might even surprise you to learn that the Bible’s teachings on the afterlife change dramatically between the Old and New Testaments. I go into detail about Hell’s problems here, here, and here.
The Problem of Evil
Another huge problem for Christianity is the problem of evil, which I talk about here. This post also addresses the “problem of Heaven.”
The Bible’s Morality
While a number of people believe that the Christian god is the source of all morality, the Bible is actually filled with some monstrous acts that are either commanded by God, done with his consent, or carried out by him directly. I talk about some specific examples here, and I address some of the common responses to them here.
Conclusion
Kathy, there are a number of other examples that could be given, including the prophecy of Tyre that we’ve been discussing. But to me, these are some of the most significant and clear-cut problems. We could try to manufacture explanations for every one of these — some might be more believable than others. But why should we have to? If a perfect God inspired this book, why should it contain so many discrepancies? And honestly, some of these issues can’t be explained. They’re just wrong. The problems go well beyond internal contradictions and unfulfilled prophecies. There are problems of authorship, problems with the doctrines, and problems with the way the texts were written, transcribed, and compiled.
I’m sure you’ve spent your time as a Christian trying to reach those who are lost. You’ve always believed that Christianity is truth, and it’s the one thing that everyone needs. But could it be that Christianity is just as false as every other religion in the world? And if that’s the case, wouldn’t you want to leave it behind? When one is dedicated to finding truth, they have to be prepared to follow it wherever it leads. It’s not always easy or popular. It’s not even a guarantee that you’re right. All it means is that you follow the evidence where it leads to the best of your ability. If you find out that you’re wrong about something, you adjust course when the evidence dictates. If God exists, and if he’s righteous, what more could he ask for than that? I’ll close with my favorite quote:
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
— Marcus Aurelius
Finding Truth 
Nate, they would likely say we had to understand the language, culture and context.
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“People who believe we have souls have realized that there is no better explanation.. we are created beings, with purpose.. not freak accidences.
It’s the MOST rational explanation.. I believe I’ve already made this claim/ challenge, I wonder if this one will get ignored also.”
Only if you can explain the creation of your creator, and his/her/it’s creator, and his/her/it’s creator, and his/her/it’s creator, and his/her/it’s creator, and his/her/it’s creator, and his/her/it’s creator, and his/her/it’s creator, and his/her/it’s creator, and his/her/it’s creator, and his/her/it’s creator, and his/her/it’s creator, and his/her/it’s creator – you don’t really want me to go on, do you?
There is far too much evidence in support of evolution to bother presenting it here – spend a little time on Google. We’re closer now than ever to determining how abiogenesis worked, especially after the discovery last year that Mars had microbial life as well, proving that life was not unique to the earth.
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@Kathy
I strongly suspect that you haven’t actually read the Old Testament, for if you had you would be perfectly aware that your god, Yahweh, commanded pretty much all those horrible things you seem so dismissive of, not least of all the genocidal( fictional) Canaanite campaign.
For now, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and choose to believe you are suffering from indoctrination…..for now.
Please, go and read the Old Testament for your god’s sake.
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Hi John, you said:
“Hi Kathy, there seems to be some confusion here. Nowhere in the bible does it outlaw abortion. In fact, if you actually read the bible you’d see that the Middle Eastern god Christians worship is quite definitively pro-abortion, personally and passionately performing many terminations and ordering countless more.”
“Thou shalt not kill “.. that’s the law prohibiting abortion.
What you don’t discern is that God and human beings are not the same.
God created human beings. He has the sovereign right to do with us as He wants.
You have to look at the TOTAL picture of the Old Testament to understand why God
“orders” people killed or allows horrible things to happen. Atheists don’t want to do that.
But primarily when God “terminates” a pregnancy, that in no way is an endorsement of abortion.
It is God using HIS sovereign right.. something we do NOT have.
“In total there are in fact twenty-six separate instances where this Middle Eastern god performs abortions on demand, conducts infanticide (the intentional killing of newborns), and murders toddlers en masse; acts recounted from 1 Samuel 15:3 to Isaiah 13:15-18 where this god not only smashes babies to death but also orders the rape of their mothers. In a word the Christian god is a heinous baby-killing, foetus-destroying monster, and as it turns out his son is also no friend of the unborn. In the Gospel of the Egyptians Jesus not only demands total abstinence but preaches for the outright separation of the sexes, stating that “sorrow” and what he repeatedly calls “error” will remain with man for just “As long as women bear children.” The statement is quite explicit: don’t ever get pregnant, and if you do then abortion is better than birth.”
Ok, in order..
“..Middle Eastern God performs abortions on demand,..”
On WHOSE demand? The Creator of the universe’s demand.
For reasons you don’t understand, but because you don’t understand, that
doesn’t mean God was wrong. It means you lack the knowledge that He has.. it means you don’t understand the big picture… but somehow THINK you do.. and therefore are perfectly justified in judging your Creator.. the Creator of everything. #liberals
“acts recounted from 1 Samuel 15:3 to Isaiah 13:15-18 where this god not only smashes babies to death but also orders the rape of their mothers.”
These are prophecies.. not “orders”. They are predictions of what is going to happen.. because they are enemies of God. God is allowing these things to happen, but He’s not “ordering” babies to be dashed or pregnant woman killed in these prophecies.
This inability to discern, an inability that is extremely common among liberals/atheists, is evident all throughout your examples. And also lot’s of distortions and twisting of the actual words/ context / meanings.. also common.
And I have no knowledge of the Gospel of the Egyptians.. or what you are claiming Jesus said. Nothing in the Bible to support that.
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“All your comment did was show how MANY different people have witnessed to the truth of the Bible, instead of one (Muhammed).. as I pointed out… ”
Good Stuff Kathy 🙂
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“It’s one thing to hold a position, quite another to imply you are so closed-minded that no other rational explanation is even possible.”
I’m INVITING anyone to argue otherwise.. that’s not closed minded.. it’s the opposite.
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“<em"And I assert that you lack objectivity.. that is based on my 'research' of liberals/ atheists and the knowledge I have of Christianity based on the Bible.”
You really don’t strike me as having done much “research” at all.
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Thank you Mike.. likewise.. I wish there were “like” buttons on WordPress.. your arguments are ALWAYS “spot on”.
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“You’ve just proven my point – it’s NOT the same account, it’s contradicts the synoptics.”
Yes i know. Your standard of proof is for things biblical so flimsy you probably really do think I have but alas…..nope.no contradiction Its two different times and its rather obvious but I know you will beg until the cows come home despite the text in Matthew never saying it was their first meeting that it was – just so you can go where you want to go
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“You really don’t strike me as having done much “research” at all.”
Oh the irony….lol…. I know. You read liberals such as yourself and think thats research
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“another is support of political policies that strip away freedoms.”
What freedoms would those be, Kathy? The freedom to believe as you choose? The freedom to know that your government remains neutral when it comes to religion, allowing you to go to any government building and expect not to see some religious advertisement on the lawn or on the wall? Are those the freedoms we Liberals are trying to strip away?
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Wow, that’s quite a handful of information, John – I’m gonna have to take notes!
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Ron, re: Jesus was a liberal.
Oh sighhhhhh.. you are so wrong.. you/ liberals couldn’t be more wrong in trying to claim that Jesus’ teachings & words would make Him a liberal today. This is CLASSIC liberal twisting, distortion & the simple inability to discern differences.
Jesus would NEVER agree with the liberal views of today. Yes, Jesus had “new” ideas.. and liberals like to pretend that their “new” ideas would make them like Jesus.. but um.. no.
“Paying Taxes:
Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar?s; and unto God the things that are God?s.” (Matthew 22:21, Mark 12:17, Luke 20:25)”
One of many PERFECT examples of liberals’ inability to discern and/ or distort.
Name ONE Christian who says we shouldn’t pay taxes. I know of no one who believes this.. so this claim has zero support… absolutely none.. except to support my claim of liberal confusion and distortion.
on public prayer, displays of faith.. Jesus was speaking about the Pharisees and their phony displays.. NOT Christians who are sincerely worshipping Jesus.
And this is the same for every example you gave.. it’s twisting and distortions of Jesus’ words and meaning. I’m not going to go through all of it.. too time consuming.. if you want to choose a couple of your best examples.. I’ll gladly address those. .and easily point out the twisting and distortions and basic lack of ability to discern differences.
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Always good to have this particular nugget on-hand whenever abortion gets thrown out there.
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Yeah, John. I’d have to say that was pretty impressive…
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Hi Kathy…
So, let me get this straight: Abortion is fine if and when your particular Middle Eastern god does it, but not in any other circumstances.
That’s interesting….
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Ah…yes, thought this just had to rear its ugly head sooner or later.
Divine Command Theory.
The refuge of the William Lane Craig Clones and other Sick in the Head Fundamentalist Christians.
You have my sympathy. You truly are not well.
Oh, and please, try to keep this stuff away from children, okay?
We don’t want any more dogma-ranting idiots let loose upon the kids, now do we?
Oh, and the TOTAL picture of the Old Testament? Try lies…..
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Cheers Nate.
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“He gave the ultimate sacrifice for us.. no tyrant would do this. Somehow this part of the Bible ALWAYS gets ignored”
You really don’t knnow anything about the Bible, except for what’s IN the Bible, do you Kathy?
Have you any idea why Yeshua (“Jesus'” REAL name, “Jesus” was only the Greek translation), if he ever existed (and there is no evidence that he did) needed to die?
First, you need to understand something about Jewish religious laws, especially the law about the “Sin Offering.” For the Sin Offering, people were expected to sacrifice an unblemished lamb – unblemished, because otherwise, unscrupulus sheep-owners could easily get rid of a sickly lamb that wouldn’t have lived anyway, and what kind of a “sacrifice” would that be? Poor people, where not able to afford a lamb, were allowed to sacrifice two doves instead. Eventually, the raising of these lambs was taken over by the Jewish priesthood, to assure purity. The sheep were raised in fields just outside the small town of Bethlehem, near a tower called the Migdala, from the top of which, a guard kept watch on the flock. When a ewe was about ready to give birth, she was brought into a cave-like structure undeer the tower – a place kept absolutely spotless – and there, she gave birth. Now if you’ve ever watched a young animal – especially of the livestock variety, sheep, goats, cattle, horses – they’re quite wobbly at first, and in danger of falling and possibly fracturing a limb. For this reason, the newborn sheep was wrapped in swaddling clothes, so it couldn’t move its legs, and placed in a manger until it could get it’s strength. THIS is the reason the anonymous Gospel writers needed to make Yeshua be born in Bethlehem, even though there was never a census that required male Israelites to go to the city of their birth to be counted (can you imagine what that would have done to business, if everyone stopped what they were doing and traveled to be counted?) and had him wrapped in swaddling clothes and laid in a manger – to let people know that here was the lamb, the sin offering to their god.
You see, according to Jewish tradition and prophesy, the Messiah was to be a great leader, he was to unite the Jewish people and make of them a great nation. Then this sad little carpenter’s son was born, lived a few years, and got himself crucified, not exactly fulfilling the prophesy. So how to spin this? I’ve got it! His death was on purpose! He was a Sin Offering to our god for our sins! Now all we gotta do is find a way for him to be born in Bethleham – any ideas? How about a census? Sure, that’ll work – we’re writing this 45 to 100 years after the event anyway, what will anyone know? We say there was a census, they’ll believe there was a census – we’re golden!
Maybe not exactly like that, but very similar —
The sin offering was intended to appease their god. What kind of god, in order to be appeased, requires that his own son be sacrificed?
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Nan, you said: “So your “outside research” basically includes resources that back up what the bible says.”
Yes, outside evidence that supports the truth of the Bible.. I don’t get your point.
“Liberals” also believe in helping the less fortunate (something the BIBLE teaches).”
Um, sorry but that is NOT an exclusively liberal belief.. not only do conservatives adhere to these teachings of our God, we actually ACT upon it.. MORE than liberals do. We put our money where our beliefs are.. liberals prefer to use other ppl’s money to “help the poor”.
“IMO, believers tend to focus primarily on the issues you mentioned and fail to see that many of the core beliefs of liberals are much more bible-focused than conservatives care to admit.”
I know about the “core” beliefs of liberals.. they are mostly beliefs that go against God’s commandments / teachings. Yes, liberals also do things that are in line with God’s teachings.. but I can’t honestly understand what the reason would be for doing so except to try and prove to themselves that they are “good” WHILE they adhere to the other beliefs/ views… which is impossible.. you CANNOT be good and ALSO adhere to views and policies that go AGAINST God.. which include the killing of innocent unborn human beings.
“As far as looking up and around me, I feel a profound wonder and awe, but I do not attribute it to some preconceived idea of God. But then, that’s where you and I (and many of the people on this blog) differ.”
Yep, it is definitely where we differ. We see meaning and purpose.. atheists see a series of infinite accidences.. and a complete void of meaning and purpose.
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Kathy, I don’t believe that a God who created everyone would have the right to do whatever he wanted with them and still be called “good,” much less “loving.”
Just imagine what’s entailed in those passages that John listed. Imagine what it would be like to eviscerate a pregnant woman — to gut her so that she’s forced to live just long enough to witness the death of her unborn child. Imagine being an Israelite in the time of Joshua and to have the job of going into cities and killing everyone, including small children. Imagine their terrible cries of fear and pleading; imagine the parents trying to shield their children to no avail. Do you really believe that a loving god would command such a thing? We should not skip over such horrors without really thinking about their implications. You are someone who is horrified by the concept of abortion, and that’s understandable — can you really sanction these other atrocities?
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“I strongly suspect that you haven’t actually read the Old Testament, for if you had you would be perfectly aware that your god, Yahweh, commanded pretty much all those horrible things you seem so dismissive of, not least of all the genocidal( fictional) Canaanite campaign.”
We’ve read it all. We just don’t believe as you do that human life belongs to humans. You wish us to view it that way through your atheist perspective and when we don’t you assert greater sensibilities which you really don’t have but kid yourself you do. By your assertion God can never take back the life he gives that belongs to him. To you if people do not live forever its “genocide”. After all today millions of people will die , thousands of them from the same race and in all of them life is being taken away by a decree of God
Add to that in your circular thinking you think that its particularly egregious because you think this is all the life one can ever have but we don’t (and neither does God) so we can understand your misplaced rage if not condone it. Physical life is your whole realm but to theists and God its a fleeting instant whose only lasting consequence is what we do that counts toward a continued existence.
Theres another reason we are miles apart. We see God as God. You view any action he does or commands as if he were you or your next door neighbor. That would be barbaric because should i hold the life of a baby in my hand to kill it I do it with no knowledge of his/her future and I do it with no regard for the afterlife. I have no control but the physical death. I don’t know what its thinking, whats in its heart or whether it will be mass murder when it grows up or a mother Theresa
Of course you will claim there is no excuse for why God would slaughter any baby . its barbaric and evil.
However should I stand in the past and hold a baby Hitler in my hand I think I would have a dillemma on my hand and I might take issue with the universality of that rule. In fact if someone showed me death camps and mass graves and people writhing in gas chambers and then put the baby Hitler in my hand I don’t think I would pass easily on the opportunity to be “barbaric”.
Theist believes God knows those things more than us and we believe unlike you that life belongs to God. You ask us to be atheists in our thinking but we decline.
Now of course this gives you all kinds of opportunities to foam at the mouth about suicide bombers and all kinds of things done in the name of God but we don;t hold that anyone can add to the book of revelation so all revelations of who should die in war severely limited in scope and circumstance as they were had to have really been from God and not post AD
Will you slobber at this like you know it all? OF course but when God had it in his hand to risk himself to save everyone hanging on a cross he dispelled your caricatures and earned the benefit of the doubt of his omniscience and you won’t fool or deceive any REAL christian with that argument or that atheists are more moral – not when you derived that sensibility from the very culture that got its ethos from the same book.
As the Human torch would say – Flame On!
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Jesus was a JEW. He was born a JEW, raised a JEW and preached the Law of Moses and preached to JEWS. He also died a JEW.
In fact Jesus came to save the chosen people, who, surprisingly, were, JEWS.
Your GENTILE religion, Kathy, is based on the teaching of the disgruntled biblical character Saul of Tarsus who didn’t get on very well with the disciples and came off second best so he decided to forge his own religion,Christianity
Have you read Acts and the Epistles by the way?
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“So, let me get this straight: Abortion is fine if and when your particular Middle Eastern god does it, but not in any other circumstances.
That’s interesting….”
“fine”? Why would you use that word? What did I say that would imply that? No where in the Bible is God “fine” with humans dying.
Again, you ignore the enormous FACT that God and humans are NOT on the same level. And also the enormous FACT that He knows MORE than we do.. we are clueless in the big picture.
It’s “interesting” that liberals insist on putting themselves on the same level as the Creator of themselves and the universe.
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“You don’t understand the messages of the OT.. you choose to see all the horrible things and blame as many of those horrible things on God as you possibly can. You aren’t interested in anything else.”
And YOU refuse to see them for what they are! If I lived a perfect life, good and kind and generous, yet deliberately murdered ONE innocent person, that single heinous act would negate all of the good I had ever done, yet the OT is full of heinous murders of innocents, both carried out by your god, as well as under his specific orders, and all you say is, “well, he created us, life is his to take –”
All that “creation” garbage aside, what does the action itself tell you about the character of the one committing it? You claim he “gave” us life – have you ever given a gift? How often have you taken it back?
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