Dear Kathy,
Since you graciously agreed (in our recent conversation) to let me present you with some examples of the Bible’s problems, I decided to do it in this way so it would have its own comment thread. As I’ve said, when I was a Christian, one strike against the Bible was not enough to shake my faith — maybe it only seemed problematic, maybe there was an explanation we hadn’t uncovered yet, maybe the historical accounts were wrong, etc. But as the problems began to mount up, I reached a point where I could no longer deny the fact that the Bible had actual errors.
A couple of suggestions before we begin. Try to be as open-minded about this as possible. As you go through these examples, ask yourself if God would allow such problems to exist in a message that he wanted all people to accept and believe? According to the Bible, whenever God sent someone a message, whether it was Pharaoh or Gideon or Nebuchadnezzar or Paul, they had no question whom it was from. They didn’t always follow it, as we see with people like Pharaoh and Solomon, but they didn’t question the source of the message or what it stated. So why would God operate differently today? Why would he want us to be so confused about his message that we’re able to question whether or not it’s really from him?
Another thing to keep in mind is that even if you come to the conclusion that the Bible has actual problems, that doesn’t mean you have to stop believing in God. There are a number of Christians who don’t believe in inerrancy. And even if you lose faith in the Christian god, that still doesn’t mean you have to stop believing in God. A number of people, including several of our founding fathers, were deists. I have a lot of sympathy for that view and plan to do a post on it soon.
Some of the items listed here will have links that provide additional information, especially when the issue is too detailed to list here. I hope that you’ll check out those links, since some of them are quite significant points. And regardless of how this article strikes you, I hope it will help serve as a great springboard to launch you into your own research.
Some of the Problems
Creation
The creation accounts in Genesis do not match what we’ve learned through science. This isn’t shocking news, but it bears looking into. Evolution and the Big Bang Theory had nothing to do with my deconversion, but I’ve learned more about both since leaving Christianity. It’s shocking how much misinformation I had been operating under. Not to say that all Christians are that way — that was simply my experience. But the evidence for both evolution and the Big Bang are far more substantial than I had ever realized. Two good resources for learning more about these issues are the following (though I’d also recommend checking out the recent Cosmos series, as well as some of the PBS NOVA specials):
Another problem with the creation accounts is that Genesis 1 says that plants and trees were made on the 3rd day, while man was made on the 6th. But Genesis 2:5-9 says that man was created before there were any plants or trees in the land. Also, the 1st chapter says that man was created after all the animals, but the 2nd chapter implies that it was the other way around. It seems strange that such discrepancies would exist only a chapter apart, but there are a number of textual clues that suggest the first 5 books of the Bible were assembled over a long period of time from various writings written by a number of different people. Many scholars believe that Genesis 1 and 2 represent two separate versions of the creation story that were both included because the compilers didn’t know which was more accurate. Whatever the reason, there’s no question that the differences exist and are hard to explain.
10 Plagues
During the 10 plagues, God afflicts all of Egypt’s livestock with a disease (Ex 9:1-7), and it specifies that it would affect the “horses, the donkeys, the camels, the herds, and the flocks.” We’re told that all of Egypt’s livestock died. But the later plague of boils was said to affect both man and beast (verse 10 of chapter 9). Maybe it meant non-livestock animals. But Ex 11:5 says that the death of the firstborn would also affect Egypt’s cattle, and in Exodus 14, Pharaoh pursues the Israelites with horses.
Hares Chew the Cud
Leviticus 11:6 tells us that hares chew the cud. They do not. Animals that chew the cud are called ruminants. When they eat plant matter, it goes to their first stomach to soften, and then it’s regurgitated to their mouth. They spend time re-chewing it, and then it is swallowed and fully digested. Ruminants (cows, sheep, goats, etc.) are recognizable because their chewing of the cud is very obvious. Hares (rabbits) don’t chew the cud; however, their mouths do move frequently, so it’s possible to see why some people may have assumed that they do chew the cud. Of course, God would know they didn’t, and this is why the passage is problematic. You can read more about this here.
Arphaxad
In the genealogy given in Genesis 11:10-12, we see that Noah fathered Shem and Shem fathered Arphaxad. At the age of 35, Arphaxad fathered Shelah. This information is confirmed in 1 Chron 1:18. But Luke 3:35-36 tells us that Arphaxad’s son was Cainan, and he was the father of Shelah.
Where does Luke get this information? It disagrees with the Old Testament, so who should we believe? Some have suggested that Genesis and 1 Chronicles simply left out Cainan for some reason. But why would they do that? To further complicate it, how could Cainan have fit in there? Genesis tells us that Arphaxad was 35 when he fathered Shelah. Does it really seem likely that Arphaxad became a grandfather by 35, especially when you consider the extreme old ages that people lived to at that time?
Another explanation is that some copyist messed up when copying Luke and Cainan is just a mistake. But this is not much better. First of all, the error would have needed to occur early for it to be in all our copies of Luke. Secondly, are we really comfortable saying that we have the inspired word of our creator, but it got messed up by some guy who wasn’t paying close attention? To me, that doesn’t lend a lot of credence to the idea of inspiration or inerrancy.
Instead, the most likely explanation is that Luke made a mistake. This, of course, would indicate that he was not inspired.
Problems in the Book of Daniel
In Daniel 5, the writer refers to Belshazzar as the son of Nebuchadnezzar 7 different times. Yet we know from multiple contemporary sources that Belshazzar’s father was Nabonidus, who was not related to Nebuchadnezzar. The same chapter says that Darius the Mede took over Babylon, but this person does not seem to have ever existed. Daniel says that he was the son of Ahaseurus, and in mentioning this, the author of Daniel indicates that he was thinking of a later ruler — the persian emperor Darius the Great, whose son was Ahaseurus. This post in particular goes into the problems surrounding the 5th chapter, but if you’d like to learn about the problems in the rest of the book, you can access each article in the series here.
Jairus’s Daughter
In Mark 5:23, Jairus finds Jesus and says that his daughter is at the point of death. While they’re on their way to the house, some of his servants find them on the way and say that she has died and there’s no point in troubling Jesus further.
However, in Matthew 9:18, Jairus already knows that his daughter has died, but tells Jesus that if he’ll lay his hands on her, she’ll live. This may seem like a minor difference, but honestly, there’s only one scenario that could be true. Either the girl was already dead, or she wasn’t. And if Jairus already knew she was dead, then there was no point in his servants coming to tell him that (so of course, they don’t appear in Matthew’s account).
The Centurion
This is similar to the previous issue. Matthew and Luke both record a centurion who asks Jesus to heal his sick servant. Matthew 8:5-13 says that the centurion himself comes before Jesus to ask for help. Luke 7:1-10 says that the Jewish elders went on his behalf, and then he sent servants to follow up. In Luke, Jesus never speaks to, or even sees, the centurion at all.
Hight Priest
In Mark 2:23-28, Jesus talks about the occasion from the Old Testament when David ate the showbread, which Jesus said was in the days of Abiathar the high priest. However, in 1 Samuel 21:1-6, it appears that Ahimelech was the high priest. Some have tried to answer this problem by saying that Abiathar was alive during that particular episode, so Jesus’ statement is still true. But that’s obviously not the intent of the passage. After all, we would correct anyone who said that the tragedy of 9/11 occurred during the days of President Barack Obama. He may have been alive at the time, but that event did not happen while he was President.
430 Years
Galatians 3:16-17 says this:
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.
Here, Paul says that the law came 430 years after the promises were made to Abraham. But in Exodus 12:40-41, we see:
Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt was 430 years. At the end of the 430 years, to the very day, all the LORD’s divisions left Egypt.
If the Israelites were in Egypt 430 years, then there could not have been 430 years between Abraham’s promises and the law. God made the promises to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3, and as we read on through Genesis, we see that Abraham had no children at this time. Later, he had a son named Isaac. When Isaac was 60 years old, he had Jacob (Gen 25:24-26), and Jacob had 12 sons that produced the 12 tribes of Israel. Already, we can see that some time has passed since Abraham received the promise. Once Jacob’s sons were all grown with families of their own, they finally settled in Egypt. Jacob was 130 years old at this time (Gen 47:9), and this marks the beginning of that 430 year period that the Israelites spent in Egypt.
That means that the time between the promise to Abraham and the giving of the law was actually over 600 years. So why did Paul say 430 years? I think it’s obvious that this was a simple mistake. He remembered the 430 year figure because that’s how much time the Israelites spent in Egypt, and so he simply misspoke. It’s not a big deal… except that he’s supposed to be inspired by God.
Jesus’ Birth
There are a number of issues surrounding Jesus’ birth. First, Matthew’s and Luke’s accounts contradict one another on virtually all the details, which you can read about here. Secondly, Matthew seems to invent an episode where Herod kills all the children in Bethlehem who are 2 and under, causing Mary, Joseph, and Jesus to flee to Egypt (instead of just returning home to Nazareth, because only Luke says that they started in Nazareth). Matthew does this in order to “fulfill” some Old Testament passages that actually have nothing to do with Jesus or killing babies. You can read about Matthew’s misuse of the Old Testament here — it’s quite blatant.
The Virgin Birth is one of the most famous aspects of Jesus’ story, and it was supposedly done in fulfillment of a prophecy from Isaiah. But it turns out that Isaiah was prophesying no such thing — he was talking about an event that was happening in his own time, and Matthew (once again) just appropriated the “prophecy” for his own devices. You can read all the details here.
Another problem concerning Jesus’ birth narratives is that Matthew and Luke both offer genealogies for Jesus, but they are completely different from one another. Worse, they don’t match the genealogies listed in the Old Testament, either. And Matthew claims that there was a pattern in the number of generations between Abraham and David, between David and the Babylonian captivity, and between the Babylonian captivity and Christ. But to get this neat division, he is forced to leave out some names. In other words, that pattern didn’t happen. You can read more about that here.
The Triumphal Entry
While not as blatant as most of these other issues, when Matthew recounts Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem, he once again borrows from the Old Testament, but seems to make a mistake in his implementation. See here for more info.
Judas’ Death
Judas is well known for being the disciple that betrayed Jesus, but what’s not as well known is there are two different accounts of his death, and it’s very hard to reconcile them. According to Matthew, Judas threw his money down at the chief priests’ feet and went out and hanged himself. We’re not told where he did this. The priests then take the money, and instead of putting it back in the treasury (since it’s blood money), they buy a field to use for burying strangers. Because they bought the field with this money, it’s called the “Field of Blood.”
According to Acts, Judas bought a field with his money (we’re not told that he was remorseful), and he somehow fell down, bursting open in the middle and bleeding to death. The field was called “Field of Blood” after that because of the manner in which Judas died.
To make things more complicated, Matthew (of course) says that this happened in accordance with Jeremiah’s prophecy, but there’s nothing in Jeremiah that matches up. The closest reference comes from Zechariah, not Jeremiah.
These issues really complicate the notion of divine inspiration, and you can read more about them here.
The Crucifixion
There are several big problems with the way the gospels record the events of Jesus’ death, including the fact that different times of day are given for it, and even different days altogether. You can read more about this here.
The Resurrection
There are also a number of problems concerning the resurrection, some minor, some major. They’re too involved to get into here, but you can read all about them here and here.
The Problem of Hell
The notion of Hell is fraught with problems. It might even surprise you to learn that the Bible’s teachings on the afterlife change dramatically between the Old and New Testaments. I go into detail about Hell’s problems here, here, and here.
The Problem of Evil
Another huge problem for Christianity is the problem of evil, which I talk about here. This post also addresses the “problem of Heaven.”
The Bible’s Morality
While a number of people believe that the Christian god is the source of all morality, the Bible is actually filled with some monstrous acts that are either commanded by God, done with his consent, or carried out by him directly. I talk about some specific examples here, and I address some of the common responses to them here.
Conclusion
Kathy, there are a number of other examples that could be given, including the prophecy of Tyre that we’ve been discussing. But to me, these are some of the most significant and clear-cut problems. We could try to manufacture explanations for every one of these — some might be more believable than others. But why should we have to? If a perfect God inspired this book, why should it contain so many discrepancies? And honestly, some of these issues can’t be explained. They’re just wrong. The problems go well beyond internal contradictions and unfulfilled prophecies. There are problems of authorship, problems with the doctrines, and problems with the way the texts were written, transcribed, and compiled.
I’m sure you’ve spent your time as a Christian trying to reach those who are lost. You’ve always believed that Christianity is truth, and it’s the one thing that everyone needs. But could it be that Christianity is just as false as every other religion in the world? And if that’s the case, wouldn’t you want to leave it behind? When one is dedicated to finding truth, they have to be prepared to follow it wherever it leads. It’s not always easy or popular. It’s not even a guarantee that you’re right. All it means is that you follow the evidence where it leads to the best of your ability. If you find out that you’re wrong about something, you adjust course when the evidence dictates. If God exists, and if he’s righteous, what more could he ask for than that? I’ll close with my favorite quote:
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
— Marcus Aurelius
Finding Truth 
“boo boo face“????????!!!!
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Blessed are the peacemakers…
Conservapedia Bible Project will most likely be rewording this to “Blessed are the MX Peackeepers…”
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Correct link: http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project
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Nate.. you said:
“you: “When police interrogate two suspects who are thought to be cohorts in a crime, which is more suspect: areas of agreement or disagreement in their alibis? It’s true that people can tell the same story with variation. It’s even been said that eye-witness testimony is some of the worst evidence because people tend to mis-remember things.”
Your question implies that you hold an assumption (today) that scripture is not true.. the authors are “criminals”. So you’re not analyzing from an objective position.
you: “However, regular witnesses are not inspired by God, but it’s claimed that the Bible’s authors were. Also, variation in a few details is one thing — variation on entire aspects of a story is something else entirely.”
This prompts me to ask.. what do you believe “inspiration” means in relation to the Bible?
It seems that once again, you are adding a word.. “all” to the declaration that the Bible is inspired.. that every single word is directly from God, that humans had no influence. This doesn’t gel with WITNESS ACCOUNTS.. certainly the authors were filled with the Spirit.. but we still make mistakes, and we still sin etc. Where in the Bible does it say that every single word of the Bible is God’s word that humans just wrote down as a secretary does? Where do you find this description of inspiration in the Bible?
me: “Why do you think there are four separate accounts of the Gospel in the Bible?
you: Because the various authors were relating the versions they had heard or had access to. None of them thought their version would be situated side-by-side other versions.”
This isn’t what I meant Nate.. you had asked why God would put the “barriers” of “contradictions” in the Gospels.. that was the context of my question.. why do you believe there are 4 different accounts of the Gospel story IN the Bible?
me: “The Bible is FULL of evidence for it’s truth! And it’s the most compelling evidence we have for who our Creator is.. all the thousands of others have nothing by comparison. (this is another point I’ve made that you’ve ignored).
you: Like what? I think you’ll find that closer inspection shows these pieces of evidence aren’t as sound as you think…”
Did you read the definition of “evidence”? There is tons of evidence.. start with the archeological discoveries, outside sources.. things that confirm the truth of many details in the Bible.. and PLEASE don’t respond back with “that doesn’t prove God’s existence”.. because that’s not what I claimed.. I’m claiming that it is evidence.. and it’s compelling evidence.. along with those who were martyred.. the disciples and Christians up to today. And then there’s the fulfilled prophecies, like Tyre.. Yes.. Tyre! Even if you insist on rejecting the entire prophecy as “failed”.. MOST of it you don’t dispute and MOST of it IS against the odds! That is what we call evidence Nate.. and again, it’s COMPELLING evidence. You are trying desperately to dismiss it but you can’t. It beat the odds.. just as Israel being reformed and so many others. That’s evidence!
me: “Do you make this claim for other historical events/ people? It’s no different. ALL of our historical documentation is from people who lived long ago and who we didn’t know.
you: And do we believe them when they tell us that Vespasian performed miracles?”
It would depend on the accumulation of evidence.. and how compelling it is. And for Vespasian, it’s non existent or not very compelling, but for Jesus, much exists and it’s VERY compelling!
me: “That you equate the God of the Bible with thousands of others truly reveals your lack of objectivity.
you: Actually, I think it shows the opposite. Instead of giving it preferential treatment based on the culture and religion I grew up with, I try to approach it as an outsider to see if it’s compelling.”
And so, you are making the claim that the compelling evidence is equal for the God of the Bible and the thousands of others? Equal in martyrs, fulfilled prophecies, archeological evidence? Then where are all of their followers?? Yes, lots of followers for Islam but again.. they get “punished” if they don’t follow Muhammad. So…
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Kathy Comments Part II
“Again, you ignore the enormous FACT that God and humans are NOT on the same level. And also the enormous FACT that He knows MORE than we do.. we are clueless in the big picture.”
“It’s “interesting” that liberals insist on putting themselves on the same level as the Creator of themselves and the universe.”
“Mike, your last comment nailed it.. again.. hopefully it won’t be too difficult for atheists to grasp
your point/ sincere perspective”
“Nate you are engaging in incredible ignorance by not acknowledging these things.”
And to say that He didn’t need to do it is the ultimate ignorance.. God wouldn’t go through this if He didn’t have to in order to save us”
“Boy, the pride and arrogance sure runs deep with liberals.”
“They both use intimidation and death (Islam) if you try to think for yourself. This is not true of Christianity”
“Ruth, that’s what is at the root of the anti God / liberal movement.. if liberals can take away freedoms, including/ ESPECIALLY freedom of religion, they’ve made a HUGE accomplishment in the fight against God and the saving of souls”
“Sin must be punished.. that you/ atheists feel intimidated by that isn’t going to affect that reality/ fact.”
“It’s mostly the same kind of evidence we have for ANY historical figures from that long ago. There’s no good evidence to believe they weren’t martyred considering the information we do have.”
“Objectivity is my “specialty”.. it’s what I’ve taken pride in for all of my adult life. ”
“I keep getting reminded that the non believers here were once “believers”.. and then discovered the “truth”.. this is a popular “selling point” for those wanting to make money off of this market.”
“You HAVE to be objective to take on all the people I have and survive with confidence in tact.”
“I can’t help it if they choose not to apply honesty and objectivity to the same extent that I do.”
“PS.. it also is extremely helpful/ important to choose the correct views.. this is key.”
“There is NO search for truth if everyone is forced to agree or keep silent”
“Control through censorship/ and censorship through control….. why no liberal should hold a government position.. and why our country is presently being dismantled and “fundamentally TRANSFORMED”.
“My debate “style” is because you all force me to confront you due to lack of honesty and objectivity.”
“I’m not rejecting all outside information, but you’ve got to give me SOMETHING to convince me it’s not yet MORE atheist propaganda by people who hate God.. convince me it’s objective.. and I’ll consider it. ”
” I’m not saying that “Sunday school” should move into the public classroom but an acknowledgement that the “science” actually argues AGAINST man’s existence, and then offering ANOTHER VALID possibility.. is reasonable and fair. ”
” I openly judge 99.9% of all atheists as allowing pride & ego to prevent them from acknowledging God.”
” The people who died on 9/11 were innocent people. The people in Canaan were enemies of God at a time when God was establishing Himself with His creation. Everything He did then was necessary to advance His plan.”
“Ruth, I judge atheists based on the facts. We have NO PROOF that God doesn’t exist.”
“I see no valid excuses for claiming God doesn’t exist.. none. My judgments are just.”
“Mike,… my guardian angel 🙂 Don’t worry Mike, the idea that Nate or any atheist will turn me into an unbeliever literally makes me laugh (out loud).”
“When I’m debating atheists, my motivation is to combat the evil that keeps people from accepting Jesus’ gift of salvation. I’m doing that by point out the lies and human faults (pride etc) that are destroying people.”
“And I’ll just reiterate Mikes point.. it is not a good argument to point out a very few who do fall away.. because the number of believers are so great, it’s expected that there will be some who become misguided and disillusioned”
“Once God has revealed Himself to you in your life, you don’t need to look any further.”
“Sources please.. would like to see if those sources are as credentialed as the Bible.. which I know they are not.”
“Why would I expend the energy and time to search for something that I know
is false? Think Ron! …think!”
“And, my entire argument IS BASED on reason.. over the atheist’s blind faith that God doesn’t exist. And so far.. STILL no challenges to that argument.”
“If I thought you might be right, THEN I might do the research myself.. but again, I know you are wrong.”
“And this is just not true.. because science tells us that existence is illogical.”
“We only have the “rights” that God wants to give us. ”
“If atheists would just look at the BIG PICTURE, it would make sense to you.. but that requires having an open mind.. to think outside the box.”
“Again, this IS an issue of pride and ego.. things the Bible warns us about over and over.
You all don’t see this but we do… it’s very clear.”
“Yes, I’m aware that you/ atheists here were “me” several years ago.. according to YOU. I disagree. If you were where I am now, you wouldn’t have left God.”
“AND, at some point, it does require us to simply decide to TRUST God.. that He knows what He is doing”
“I honestly question how much trust, faith and objectivity former Christians put forth before they turned their backs on God.”
“Templeton may have been sincere and may have had legitimate doubts.. and then along comes the wily snake.. pushing him over the edge.. he succumbed to the temptations and the doubts.. he didn’t trust God.”
“Again, looking at the big picture.. from God’s perspective..( as much as we can put ourselves in His perspective)… looking at the big picture actually gives us reasonable answers.. enough to not lose our faith.”
“This is just more liberal bias.. sorry but I feel it’s extremely productive to point out bias and hypocrisy.. as it is to point out my faults.. which I don’t mind at all.. as long as it is without bias and hypocrisy/ aka double standards.”
“There are so many of these “contradictions” that you’ve listed.. very time consuming, and I am sure that every one has an explanation that is acceptable.”
” I’ve said it before but, to me, the seeming contradictions are there because God allowed them to be there due to real life “contradictions” in multiple testimonies.. and those who SEEK the possible explanations will find them.. those who DON’T want there to be explanations won’t find them”
“It’s a context issue.. and sorry (to all liberals/atheists) but it’s real and it’s unavoidable.
Especially with old text.. in different languages and different cultures.”
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@Kathy, “Wow, what an impressive argument to my points.. repost them. Very profound kc.. you got everyone thinking!”
That was my purpose , Kathy. To get everyone thinking . There was NO argument to your points. Just putting them in one comment box so we can all see them. 🙂
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RE: – “Your question implies that you hold an assumption (today) that scripture is not true.. the authors are “criminals”.” – are false assumptions like this, examples of your incredible debating skill, hone over the years to a razor’s edge?
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Mike’s Comments
Mike, “Nate where would this contradiction be? I’m looking and can’t find it.”
“IF your very first point to Kathy starts out with misreading the text”
“It aint hard people. Just read the text.”
“You know Nate at some point you are going to have to stop skipping the language the text was written in”
“NO problemo. Another contradiction bites the dust”
“Oh Vey. The New Jerome Biblical commentary is my pope. Whatever shall I do now? lol”
“Your lying knows no end”
“Just stop ya lying ways bro”
“Dude you ARE lying. You are the one twisting my words”
“You are just too ignorant. ”
“and thats why this confident theist who equally KNOWS he is more enlightened than you on the Bible can’t take your charges seriously. ”
“You are never up to looking at the original language or culture which is why your claiming Kathy is not objective is just hopelessly off and all of your contradictions flop so badly.”
“Just a long record of claims by skeptics of drawing conclusions based on what always was scant evidence either way given few contemporary historians and having to dig what ever did exist out of the ground.”
“Yawn…. I am never concerned with your spittle as evidence”
“Only the whining skeptics because they no longer can prove the error their bias swore was there and because yet another contradiction has bit the dust.”
“As usual you have no good point. its all just begging not proving a contradiction.”
“William sorry mi lad but you just don’t get basic common sense.”
“Good Stuff Kathy 🙂 ”
“We’ve read it all. We just don’t believe as you do that human life belongs to humans. ”
“God does not do “what ever he wants” with people. He does according to his righteousness.”
“The one thing that you all are most deluded on is your own knowledge of the Bible. ”
“Most of you do not know squat about Hebrew or greek but here you are holding yourselves out as having fully researched the bible.”
“She’d be surprised Nate because you are lying”
“John I’ve probably forgotten more than you ever knew. Wow me with your brilliance on the subject”
“Sigh…You seem utterly and absolutely ignorant that I have previously addressed the dating of the period as far from a settled matter”
“Ask around I don’t do debates like you lazy skeptics love em.”
“I’m gathering you are just another of the merry crew that has no grasp of primary evidence for things he reads and barfs who has no idea about issues in egyptian chronology and that those issue do not arise from kitchen.”
“Yawn…thats kid of pathetic John – not even an argument from authority but an argument based on alleged interviewed with authority.”
“obviously you don’t know what the evidence is and just go by consensus of your skeptic archaeologists”
“I kind of see you as a nit.”
“anyway no theres as usual no contradiction just your ignorance”
“This silliness of quoting my statements back to me as if they prove your point when they don’t is one of the most tedious parts of debating you and another reason to ignore you and yes I am condescending to you because like William, Ark Arch and Nate you make it perfectly clear you do not give a flying fudge about anything buy holding on to every one of your alleged “contradictions” facts be damned. ”
Mike’s Comments II will come later today.
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RE: – “And to say that He didn’t need to do it is the ultimate ignorance.. God wouldn’t go through this if He didn’t have to in order to save us”” – to “save” us from himself! Finish the sentence! Say it with me, Kathy, and see how much sense it makes – “God wouldn’t go through this if He didn’t have to in order to save us from himself.” And so naturally, he had to sacrifice himself (Yehsua) to himself (Yahweh). What a cockamamie religion!
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There ya go , Arch ! I took the time to do this so we wouldn’t forget what had been said earlier. Your point is well taken !
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If not every word of the Bible is inspired, how do you know which ones are? Jesus said “if I tell you earthly things and you don’t believe, how will you believe when I tell you spiritual things?” So if the Bible can’t get it right in some areas, how can we trust it in others?
The people assembling the Bible were afraid of throwing out anything that was legit. And like Christians today, they were willing to assume that there was some way to resolve the issues, even if they didn’t know how right then.
To your point about evidence, is it impossible for uninspired people to record accurate history? And I’m not aware of any accurate prophecies in the Bible.
I think this illustrates one of our key differences. You seem to assume that God exists, so whichever religion is best must be the right one. But I’m not looking for the best of the bunch — I’m looking for the right one. You can look for the best apple in a barrel of rotten ones, but it’s still going to be rotten — that’s what we have with Christianity. Even if it is the best (and I don’t think it is), it still has too many problems to be the work of an all-good, all-powerful being.
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RE: – “And to say that He didn’t need to do it is the ultimate ignorance.. God wouldn’t go through this if He didn’t have to in order to save us”” – to “save” us from himself!
Why would a God who created us from nothing have to require sacrifice in order to save anything he created?
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Ruth, you’re asking a theist to THINK! You KNOW better than that, SHAME on you!
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Exactly, ruth. If god created all and is master of all, then he made all the rules. he only “had” to crucify his son because he made it that way, he only “has” to condemn people to hell because he made it that way…
why act like he didnt have a choice? what rules is god bound by? and maybe we should be trying to worship whoever made the rules that god must live by.
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I’m sure it just shows an astonishing lack of understanding of the cross on my part.
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“I’m sure it just shows an astonishing lack of understanding of the cross on my part.</em"
+ Go, my child, and sin no more —
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kc said:
“There was NO argument to your points. Just putting them in one comment box so we can all see them. 🙂 ”
ONLY a liberal would say this.. it makes it much much easier than having to actually ARGUE the points.. doesn’t it? hilarious..
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ARch said:
“RE: – “And to say that He didn’t need to do it is the ultimate ignorance.. God wouldn’t go through this if He didn’t have to in order to save us”” – to “save” us from himself! Finish the sentence! Say it with me, Kathy, and see how much sense it makes – “God wouldn’t go through this if He didn’t have to in order to save us from himself.” And so naturally, he had to sacrifice himself (Yehsua) to himself (Yahweh). What a cockamamie religion!”
Arch, I realize this is very complicated for you.. but it is explained IN the Bible! Read it.. that’s what it’s there for 🙂
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Nate, you said:
“If not every word of the Bible is inspired, how do you know which ones are? Jesus said “if I tell you earthly things and you don’t believe, how will you believe when I tell you spiritual things?” So if the Bible can’t get it right in some areas, how can we trust it in others?”
We can TRUST the ENTIRE Bible because it was approved by God.
You are focusing on things that are INSIGNIFICANT.. because again, it reveals what is in your heart. If your questions related to contradictions in the actual MESSAGE of the Bible, then I could see your point.. but times and dates.. it just doesn’t matter in the big picture of what Jesus did for US on the cross. You have chosen to make those insignificant things, significant.. WHY??
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“ONLY a liberal would say this.. it makes it much much easier than having to actually ARGUE the points.. doesn’t it? hilarious..” – kathy
just out of curiosity, how are you defining liberal? do you mean in a political sense or a biblical interpretation sense, or something else?
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Nate, continued..
.. and I’m not agreeing that there are contradictions.. I’m just explaining how you COULD overlook these things, especially since possible explanations exist! But you CHOOSE not to.
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“We can TRUST the ENTIRE Bible because it was approved by God.” – kathy
kathy, this is the very question, how do you know it’s approved by god?
the evidence? an old book that contains the names of old places isn’t evidence of divinity. however, an old book written by men with problems in it is evidence of a book written by men.
We all once thought it was divinely inspired too, until we saw thing after thing that didnt seem to add up. After that, we realized that this book, which is a man selected, man compiled, man translated, and man written compilation of letters and books is maybe just that – a product of man.
all of a sudden, all of the parts seemed hard to understand or reconcile became clear. A perfect god hadnt ordered “his people” to slaughter women and children, but he israelites were simply a product of their time and wrote what they believed at the time., and so and so on.
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William said:
“ONLY a liberal would say this.. it makes it much much easier than having to actually ARGUE the points.. doesn’t it? hilarious..” – kathy
just out of curiosity, how are you defining liberal? do you mean in a political sense or a biblical interpretation sense, or something else?”
Well, one example is my “only a liberal” comment.. liberals don’t like to debate.. it’s too offensive to them when people disagree.. they can’t handle the threat to their ego of possibly being wrong. So, instead they do things like what kc is doing. And say things like “there was NO argument to your points”.. it’s pathetic.
I’ve already defined what a liberal is today.. those who adhere to anti God beliefs and views, including and especially political & social views.
I believe every atheist here is a liberal.. all you have to do to prove me wrong is present views that are not against God.. NOT counting the views that conservatives agree with.. like helping the poor.
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On divine forgiveness:
First, an act of forgiveness requires nothing more than extending forgiveness, and making sacrifices is completely extraneous to that process. So why would an all-powerful and all-knowing God need to engage in such a pointless exercise?
Second, the notion that justice can be served by punishing innocent third parties for the sins of the guilty (aka scapegoating) is a vile and morally repugnant concept belonging to the stone age. Today, no western court of law would ever recommend such a proposal.
Third, while Jesus’ death (assuming it even happened as described) might have been extremely painful, it only lasted for a couple of hours (at least according to the scriptures), whereas the punishment for the rest of humanity is supposed to be eternal. Nor was his anguish any greater than the pain and suffering others have experienced throughout history. Additionally, those same scriptures inform us that Jesus had complete foreknowledge his suffering and death would only be temporary.
Finally, a sacrifice in which the sacrifice returns from the dead after less than three days isn’t really much of a sacrifice, is it? It’s more like a really bad weekend in the canyon, except you get your forearm back after it’s all over. (figuratively speaking)
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conservative |kənˈsərvətiv; -vəˌtiv|
noun
a person who is averse to change and holds to traditional values and attitudes
Averse to change about sums it up – unfortunately for Conservatives, “life goes not backward, nor tarries with yesterday” – Kalil Gibran, “The Prophet”
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