Dear Kathy,
Since you graciously agreed (in our recent conversation) to let me present you with some examples of the Bible’s problems, I decided to do it in this way so it would have its own comment thread. As I’ve said, when I was a Christian, one strike against the Bible was not enough to shake my faith — maybe it only seemed problematic, maybe there was an explanation we hadn’t uncovered yet, maybe the historical accounts were wrong, etc. But as the problems began to mount up, I reached a point where I could no longer deny the fact that the Bible had actual errors.
A couple of suggestions before we begin. Try to be as open-minded about this as possible. As you go through these examples, ask yourself if God would allow such problems to exist in a message that he wanted all people to accept and believe? According to the Bible, whenever God sent someone a message, whether it was Pharaoh or Gideon or Nebuchadnezzar or Paul, they had no question whom it was from. They didn’t always follow it, as we see with people like Pharaoh and Solomon, but they didn’t question the source of the message or what it stated. So why would God operate differently today? Why would he want us to be so confused about his message that we’re able to question whether or not it’s really from him?
Another thing to keep in mind is that even if you come to the conclusion that the Bible has actual problems, that doesn’t mean you have to stop believing in God. There are a number of Christians who don’t believe in inerrancy. And even if you lose faith in the Christian god, that still doesn’t mean you have to stop believing in God. A number of people, including several of our founding fathers, were deists. I have a lot of sympathy for that view and plan to do a post on it soon.
Some of the items listed here will have links that provide additional information, especially when the issue is too detailed to list here. I hope that you’ll check out those links, since some of them are quite significant points. And regardless of how this article strikes you, I hope it will help serve as a great springboard to launch you into your own research.
Some of the Problems
Creation
The creation accounts in Genesis do not match what we’ve learned through science. This isn’t shocking news, but it bears looking into. Evolution and the Big Bang Theory had nothing to do with my deconversion, but I’ve learned more about both since leaving Christianity. It’s shocking how much misinformation I had been operating under. Not to say that all Christians are that way — that was simply my experience. But the evidence for both evolution and the Big Bang are far more substantial than I had ever realized. Two good resources for learning more about these issues are the following (though I’d also recommend checking out the recent Cosmos series, as well as some of the PBS NOVA specials):
Another problem with the creation accounts is that Genesis 1 says that plants and trees were made on the 3rd day, while man was made on the 6th. But Genesis 2:5-9 says that man was created before there were any plants or trees in the land. Also, the 1st chapter says that man was created after all the animals, but the 2nd chapter implies that it was the other way around. It seems strange that such discrepancies would exist only a chapter apart, but there are a number of textual clues that suggest the first 5 books of the Bible were assembled over a long period of time from various writings written by a number of different people. Many scholars believe that Genesis 1 and 2 represent two separate versions of the creation story that were both included because the compilers didn’t know which was more accurate. Whatever the reason, there’s no question that the differences exist and are hard to explain.
10 Plagues
During the 10 plagues, God afflicts all of Egypt’s livestock with a disease (Ex 9:1-7), and it specifies that it would affect the “horses, the donkeys, the camels, the herds, and the flocks.” We’re told that all of Egypt’s livestock died. But the later plague of boils was said to affect both man and beast (verse 10 of chapter 9). Maybe it meant non-livestock animals. But Ex 11:5 says that the death of the firstborn would also affect Egypt’s cattle, and in Exodus 14, Pharaoh pursues the Israelites with horses.
Hares Chew the Cud
Leviticus 11:6 tells us that hares chew the cud. They do not. Animals that chew the cud are called ruminants. When they eat plant matter, it goes to their first stomach to soften, and then it’s regurgitated to their mouth. They spend time re-chewing it, and then it is swallowed and fully digested. Ruminants (cows, sheep, goats, etc.) are recognizable because their chewing of the cud is very obvious. Hares (rabbits) don’t chew the cud; however, their mouths do move frequently, so it’s possible to see why some people may have assumed that they do chew the cud. Of course, God would know they didn’t, and this is why the passage is problematic. You can read more about this here.
Arphaxad
In the genealogy given in Genesis 11:10-12, we see that Noah fathered Shem and Shem fathered Arphaxad. At the age of 35, Arphaxad fathered Shelah. This information is confirmed in 1 Chron 1:18. But Luke 3:35-36 tells us that Arphaxad’s son was Cainan, and he was the father of Shelah.
Where does Luke get this information? It disagrees with the Old Testament, so who should we believe? Some have suggested that Genesis and 1 Chronicles simply left out Cainan for some reason. But why would they do that? To further complicate it, how could Cainan have fit in there? Genesis tells us that Arphaxad was 35 when he fathered Shelah. Does it really seem likely that Arphaxad became a grandfather by 35, especially when you consider the extreme old ages that people lived to at that time?
Another explanation is that some copyist messed up when copying Luke and Cainan is just a mistake. But this is not much better. First of all, the error would have needed to occur early for it to be in all our copies of Luke. Secondly, are we really comfortable saying that we have the inspired word of our creator, but it got messed up by some guy who wasn’t paying close attention? To me, that doesn’t lend a lot of credence to the idea of inspiration or inerrancy.
Instead, the most likely explanation is that Luke made a mistake. This, of course, would indicate that he was not inspired.
Problems in the Book of Daniel
In Daniel 5, the writer refers to Belshazzar as the son of Nebuchadnezzar 7 different times. Yet we know from multiple contemporary sources that Belshazzar’s father was Nabonidus, who was not related to Nebuchadnezzar. The same chapter says that Darius the Mede took over Babylon, but this person does not seem to have ever existed. Daniel says that he was the son of Ahaseurus, and in mentioning this, the author of Daniel indicates that he was thinking of a later ruler — the persian emperor Darius the Great, whose son was Ahaseurus. This post in particular goes into the problems surrounding the 5th chapter, but if you’d like to learn about the problems in the rest of the book, you can access each article in the series here.
Jairus’s Daughter
In Mark 5:23, Jairus finds Jesus and says that his daughter is at the point of death. While they’re on their way to the house, some of his servants find them on the way and say that she has died and there’s no point in troubling Jesus further.
However, in Matthew 9:18, Jairus already knows that his daughter has died, but tells Jesus that if he’ll lay his hands on her, she’ll live. This may seem like a minor difference, but honestly, there’s only one scenario that could be true. Either the girl was already dead, or she wasn’t. And if Jairus already knew she was dead, then there was no point in his servants coming to tell him that (so of course, they don’t appear in Matthew’s account).
The Centurion
This is similar to the previous issue. Matthew and Luke both record a centurion who asks Jesus to heal his sick servant. Matthew 8:5-13 says that the centurion himself comes before Jesus to ask for help. Luke 7:1-10 says that the Jewish elders went on his behalf, and then he sent servants to follow up. In Luke, Jesus never speaks to, or even sees, the centurion at all.
Hight Priest
In Mark 2:23-28, Jesus talks about the occasion from the Old Testament when David ate the showbread, which Jesus said was in the days of Abiathar the high priest. However, in 1 Samuel 21:1-6, it appears that Ahimelech was the high priest. Some have tried to answer this problem by saying that Abiathar was alive during that particular episode, so Jesus’ statement is still true. But that’s obviously not the intent of the passage. After all, we would correct anyone who said that the tragedy of 9/11 occurred during the days of President Barack Obama. He may have been alive at the time, but that event did not happen while he was President.
430 Years
Galatians 3:16-17 says this:
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.
Here, Paul says that the law came 430 years after the promises were made to Abraham. But in Exodus 12:40-41, we see:
Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt was 430 years. At the end of the 430 years, to the very day, all the LORD’s divisions left Egypt.
If the Israelites were in Egypt 430 years, then there could not have been 430 years between Abraham’s promises and the law. God made the promises to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3, and as we read on through Genesis, we see that Abraham had no children at this time. Later, he had a son named Isaac. When Isaac was 60 years old, he had Jacob (Gen 25:24-26), and Jacob had 12 sons that produced the 12 tribes of Israel. Already, we can see that some time has passed since Abraham received the promise. Once Jacob’s sons were all grown with families of their own, they finally settled in Egypt. Jacob was 130 years old at this time (Gen 47:9), and this marks the beginning of that 430 year period that the Israelites spent in Egypt.
That means that the time between the promise to Abraham and the giving of the law was actually over 600 years. So why did Paul say 430 years? I think it’s obvious that this was a simple mistake. He remembered the 430 year figure because that’s how much time the Israelites spent in Egypt, and so he simply misspoke. It’s not a big deal… except that he’s supposed to be inspired by God.
Jesus’ Birth
There are a number of issues surrounding Jesus’ birth. First, Matthew’s and Luke’s accounts contradict one another on virtually all the details, which you can read about here. Secondly, Matthew seems to invent an episode where Herod kills all the children in Bethlehem who are 2 and under, causing Mary, Joseph, and Jesus to flee to Egypt (instead of just returning home to Nazareth, because only Luke says that they started in Nazareth). Matthew does this in order to “fulfill” some Old Testament passages that actually have nothing to do with Jesus or killing babies. You can read about Matthew’s misuse of the Old Testament here — it’s quite blatant.
The Virgin Birth is one of the most famous aspects of Jesus’ story, and it was supposedly done in fulfillment of a prophecy from Isaiah. But it turns out that Isaiah was prophesying no such thing — he was talking about an event that was happening in his own time, and Matthew (once again) just appropriated the “prophecy” for his own devices. You can read all the details here.
Another problem concerning Jesus’ birth narratives is that Matthew and Luke both offer genealogies for Jesus, but they are completely different from one another. Worse, they don’t match the genealogies listed in the Old Testament, either. And Matthew claims that there was a pattern in the number of generations between Abraham and David, between David and the Babylonian captivity, and between the Babylonian captivity and Christ. But to get this neat division, he is forced to leave out some names. In other words, that pattern didn’t happen. You can read more about that here.
The Triumphal Entry
While not as blatant as most of these other issues, when Matthew recounts Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem, he once again borrows from the Old Testament, but seems to make a mistake in his implementation. See here for more info.
Judas’ Death
Judas is well known for being the disciple that betrayed Jesus, but what’s not as well known is there are two different accounts of his death, and it’s very hard to reconcile them. According to Matthew, Judas threw his money down at the chief priests’ feet and went out and hanged himself. We’re not told where he did this. The priests then take the money, and instead of putting it back in the treasury (since it’s blood money), they buy a field to use for burying strangers. Because they bought the field with this money, it’s called the “Field of Blood.”
According to Acts, Judas bought a field with his money (we’re not told that he was remorseful), and he somehow fell down, bursting open in the middle and bleeding to death. The field was called “Field of Blood” after that because of the manner in which Judas died.
To make things more complicated, Matthew (of course) says that this happened in accordance with Jeremiah’s prophecy, but there’s nothing in Jeremiah that matches up. The closest reference comes from Zechariah, not Jeremiah.
These issues really complicate the notion of divine inspiration, and you can read more about them here.
The Crucifixion
There are several big problems with the way the gospels record the events of Jesus’ death, including the fact that different times of day are given for it, and even different days altogether. You can read more about this here.
The Resurrection
There are also a number of problems concerning the resurrection, some minor, some major. They’re too involved to get into here, but you can read all about them here and here.
The Problem of Hell
The notion of Hell is fraught with problems. It might even surprise you to learn that the Bible’s teachings on the afterlife change dramatically between the Old and New Testaments. I go into detail about Hell’s problems here, here, and here.
The Problem of Evil
Another huge problem for Christianity is the problem of evil, which I talk about here. This post also addresses the “problem of Heaven.”
The Bible’s Morality
While a number of people believe that the Christian god is the source of all morality, the Bible is actually filled with some monstrous acts that are either commanded by God, done with his consent, or carried out by him directly. I talk about some specific examples here, and I address some of the common responses to them here.
Conclusion
Kathy, there are a number of other examples that could be given, including the prophecy of Tyre that we’ve been discussing. But to me, these are some of the most significant and clear-cut problems. We could try to manufacture explanations for every one of these — some might be more believable than others. But why should we have to? If a perfect God inspired this book, why should it contain so many discrepancies? And honestly, some of these issues can’t be explained. They’re just wrong. The problems go well beyond internal contradictions and unfulfilled prophecies. There are problems of authorship, problems with the doctrines, and problems with the way the texts were written, transcribed, and compiled.
I’m sure you’ve spent your time as a Christian trying to reach those who are lost. You’ve always believed that Christianity is truth, and it’s the one thing that everyone needs. But could it be that Christianity is just as false as every other religion in the world? And if that’s the case, wouldn’t you want to leave it behind? When one is dedicated to finding truth, they have to be prepared to follow it wherever it leads. It’s not always easy or popular. It’s not even a guarantee that you’re right. All it means is that you follow the evidence where it leads to the best of your ability. If you find out that you’re wrong about something, you adjust course when the evidence dictates. If God exists, and if he’s righteous, what more could he ask for than that? I’ll close with my favorite quote:
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
— Marcus Aurelius
Finding Truth 
Three links is the tipping point, Nate.
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“Much as one would expect from Faux News –”
Too stupid. has nothing to do with Fox news. same story
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/archaeologists-claim-to-have-found-king-davids-palace-in-israel/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2370190/Archaeologists-claim-unearthed-King-Davids-palace-city-battled-Goliath-biblical-tale.html
http://www.jpost.com/Features/In-Thespotlight/Archeologists-uncover-palace-from-Kingdom-of-David-320226
“But NOT necessarily proof that that authority was David.”
Finkelstein is busted either way. The very fact that it could be David undermines his claim that David could only be a tribal leader and it shows that your settled facts based on his expertise is bogus.
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“I think Mike (TBlacksman) said that the Ezekiel 4 prophecy of Israel being restored was one of his biggest examples of prophecy fulfillment.”
Just caught this wording Nate and let me tell you up front. If you put that claim up in a post I will call you out as straight forward up and up lying. that “think Mike said” was all your fabrication. When I present fulfilled prophecies I never put one up as the “biggest example” I show the wide rang of prophecies. When you present a case you offer the whole case not one piece. It makes it harder for the defense or in this case skeptics such as yourself to deal with the whole forest over one tree.
You can fudge a tree to the left or right but trying to fudge the forest makes the fudger look obviously desperate.. 🙂
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@Kathy – RE: “believers ask why have 4 different accounts in the first place? It’s clearly to support the AUTHENTICITY of the story.. it’s evidence that supports the truth of the Bible.”
Biblical scholars, including those mentioned in The New American Bible, produced and approved by the Catholic Church, acknowledge that all four Gospels were written anonymously. The names were arbitrarily supplied to the anonymous Gospel writers in the 2nd century CE.
A simple examination demonstrates that pseudo-Matthew copied 60% of his Gospel word for word from pseudo-Mark, adding embellishments – pseudo-Luke copied from pseudo-Mark as well, though not word for word, and added even further embellishments. Only pseudo-John wrote a relatively original Gospel.
Only two of the names arbitrarily given to the anonymous Gospel writers were actual disciples of Yeshua (if he ever existed) – John, son of Zebedee the fisherman, and Matthew – Matthew was the Greek name for Levi, and the REAL Levi was in fact a tax collector and disciple, but then the REAL Levi would have had his own story to tell, and would have had no reason to copy pseudo-Mark’s so nearly word for word.
Further, biblical scholars agree that pseudo-Mark wrote his gospel first, after 72 CE, or around 35 years after the death of Yeshua (If He Ever Existed), pseudo-Matthew about five years later, pseudo-Luke sometime after the first century CE, and no copies of pseudo-John’s show up until around 150 CE.
None of these writers “witnessed” ANYthing. Further, the literacy rate in Palestine of the time was about 3%, and that among the upper classes, of which, few, if any, went traipsing around the countryside, following an itinerant rabbi (IHEE), hence those who might have actually witnessed anything, would never have been in a position, either from an age standpoint or a literacy standpoint, to read any of the pseudo-authors works to determine their authenticity.
So how exactly is that “evidence that supports the truth of the Bible“?
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@Kathy – RE: “there is no scripture that suggests the Bible is supposed to be without technical errors… especially when there are accounts written by His imperfect creation.” – for a “Big Picture” kind of girl, you’re really not seeing the big picture – what would we say about a watchmaker who made an imperfect watch? Isn’t the word, “screwup”?
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“The names were arbitrarily supplied to the anonymous Gospel writers in the 2nd century CE.”
Bogus nonsense. Names were affixed based partially on church traditions such as church father’s. this is why you never cite real evidence. You just refer to your alleged “authorities”. It allows you to pretend that “scholars” are akin to scientists.
Textual criticism is a lot like tea leaf reading. You see a reference like our father David and you conclude that this must be a redaction because no jew would refer to father David but oops I’ve even used some passages on this blog referring to David as father.
From tiny nonsense like this “scholars” build their a”case and then you pass it off as settled fact.
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this is why you never cite real evidence.
For the third time now:
https://findingtruth.wordpress.com/2014/06/23/letter-to-kathy-the-bible-has-problems/#comment-11278
“I say, boy, pay attention when I’m talkin’ to ya, boy.”
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RE: “It is ALL about LOVE. And I believe LOVE WINS! 😀” – Then how about this, Judah:
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Is here any point is splitting hairs over this? The authors are unknown. Period.
Mark’s was the first, and was tampered with, Matthew plagiarized 600 verses from Mark and included some of the most ridiculous crap imaginable, Luke was just as bad and a lousy historian and his knowledge of Palestine simply sucked. And John was ….. whatever…
Besides, it’s well known there were more than four gospels, these were the ones the church thought would look good in a book.
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“For the third time now:
https://findingtruth.wordpress.com/2014/06/23/letter-to-kathy-the-bible-has-problems/#comment-11278”
Poor Teddy bear boy doesn’t know what evidence is. What can i say?
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“Mark’s was the first, and was tampered with, Matthew plagiarized 600 verses from Mark and included some of the most ridiculous crap imaginable, Luke was just as bad and a lousy historian and his knowledge of Palestine simply sucked. And John was ….. whatever…”
Now if only rhetoric substituted for evidence. You’d be cooking with gas
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“As far as the BIble is concerned the kingdom was divided (spit and given to both) since medes were integrated. try fudging your way out of these passages” – mike
booya? surely someone has already covered this. I havent read all the comments yet, but yes, mike, the bible does maintain that the medes and persians took babylon, but history does not. It’s just one of the areas where history does not support the bible.
Seems Cyrus thought that he didnt share anything with the medes. History seems to think that the persians conquered the medes before taking babylon.
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Poor Mike,
When the truth is found to be lies
and all the joy within you dies.
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“Sparkie by now its obvious from your ranting about Mechanics and I Q test you don’t have much of a score. Frankly i don;t put that much stock in it but when somebody doesn’t meet a certain level but is calling people idiots well sorry sparkie – you had the pointing out coming.” – mike
had what coming? I ddnt really see anything of value and I’m not really upset by the frantic ramblings and assertions of a pretentious idiot, so you can say what you like – you already do anyways.
IQ scores are near meaningless, besides, i know my score and it just doesnt matter to me what you think or say about it.
and i’ve said you can have the IQ if like, but IQ wont help you defend your book of men and doesnt seem to help you present this factual evidence you speak of.
and again, the two main points of mine:
1) if you have this factual evidence, then please provide some.
2) if you cant even understand why some people see differing days of death (and other things like it) as a contradiction, then maybe there’s nothing left to talk about.
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” I havent read all the comments yet, but yes, mike, the bible does maintain that the medes and persians took babylon, but history does not. It’s just one of the areas where history does not support the bible.”
Really Sparkie? Because I always thought it was because history records them in close proximity and related but you know best sparkie. But anyways all that matters for the sake of prophecy is that the Bible sees them as together. Since you admit that..stay tuned.
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William, you said :
“Or as another example, when jesus says that a seed must die before it will grow… this is just false. And it should also be easy to understand why I see this as an error”
http://www.cupofwrath.com/bible-questions/john-12.24.php
Part of the seed does die.. it “sacrifices” itself for the “embryo” inside it. This is another example of the “all” claim.. Tyre must be “all” even though the word isn’t applied in the text.. and it isn’t applied when Jesus says a seed must die. Part of the seed DOES die or else there is no new life.
“You said earlier that there was factual evidence. please present it.”
Where did I say that and in regards to what?
“and you keep talking about making a choice… do you choose to believe the sky is blue, or does the overwhelming evidence of a blue sky convict you of that? is it a choice or a conviction?”
There is no conflicting evidence that the sky is red or green etc. There is much evidence that conflicts with atheist’s claims that God doesn’t exist.. and you are CHOOSING to dismiss it.
“If we all knew god was real, we would then choose whether or not to worship him, that would be a real choice, but belief isnt a choice is an eventuality, a conclusion – basic cause and effect.”
But it’s not based on “cause and affect”.. there is most definitely potential for bias and lack of objectivity. With a blue sky, it would be pretty hard to allow bias to influence your belief.. but belief in God is much more complex… lots of room for bias.
but again, two main points of mine:
1) if you have this factual evidence, then please provide some (mika and blacksman dont like hand waving).
2) if you cant even understand why some people see differing days of death (and other things like it) as a contradiction, then maybe there’s nothing left to talk about.
There is factual evidence.. outside sources that confirm details in the Bible.. this is factual evidence. And also archaeological evidence.
And I can fully understand why some passages seem contradictory.. but what I can’t understand is a dismissal of possible explanations when there is nothing that validly dismisses the possible explanations.
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“1) if you have this factual evidence, then please provide some.”
So still no Google skills then? Still holding out hope you will find cities entirely enclosed by walls in Israel. Umm goood luck with that. What about the location of the West bank? How about Israel producing fruit for all of europe. Chop chop Ruth gave links and so did I
pretending we put up nothing is over my boy .
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“Really Sparkie? Because I always thought it was because history records them in close proximity and related but you know best sparkie. But anyways all that matters for the sake of prophecy is that the Bible sees them as together. Since you admit that..stay tuned.” mike
was this supposed to make sense?
the bible gives a prophecy in jeremiah about the medes conquering and destroying babylon, and daniel talks about the medes and persians as if they’re some alliance, but history doesnt agree with either of these, but now you’re saying it doesnt matter as long as the bible thinks it?
is that what you meant to say?
Do you have a secular source that confirms the bible’s claims? Because all i’ve seen is that the persians conquered babylon (not the medo-persians), and that cyrus’ army walked right into babylon without much resistance (not with the medes taking babylon and destroying it like jeremiah prophesied).
while you’re digging out you evidnece, see if you dig up a secular source supporting the bible on these issues as well.
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William’s comment:
““Yes, God is perfect.. but look at us.. His creation is NOT perfect.. and there is no scripture
that suggests the Bible is supposed to be without technical errors… especially when there are accounts written by His imperfect creation.”
so you’re saying that you’d believe the bible could have errors, if the bible itself had a scripture that read, “this bible may contain errors?”
2 tim 3:16 coems pretty close. it says “ALL” scripture is inspired by god and is…. yada, yada, yada…
there’s that word “all” you’re always looking for. so yes, any small part that is not legit, means this book is not perfect.”
********************
To Nate and William..
I had not actually addressed this point of inerrancy before, believe it or not.. I guess I never had to. I knew of no contradictions.
And I also knew that IF there were any errors/ contradictions, that WOULDN’T cause me to lose my faith. There is just too much evidence other than text without technical errors.. of writings translated several times by many different people of different cultures.
And the more specific claims I researched, the more I realized how unnecessary it is to worry about number of days/ years, times, what was said, who was present etc.. there are easily possible explanations for all of it.
Yes, after doing some reading, I’m convinced that ALL scripture is “God breathed”, according to the writings in the scripture itself. I still have some thinking/ reading to do on this though.. I’m probably still going to argue that what YOU all perceive as mistakes is not enough to dismiss God. It sounds too much like a lawyer getting a murderer off on a technicality.
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@William – RE: “Do you want to help kathy out by providing your factual evidence” – Mayve if they put their wits together, they could come up with a whole wit —
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William said:
“Yes, she has clarified this, while I have clarified that there are contradictions – but regardless, she said that the were no scripture saying that errors couldnt be there… seemed like a silly, if not stupid thing to say, but it reminded me of 2 Tim : 16, so I shared and explained that this verse does sort of say that there should be no errors…”
Yes.. it was very stupid of me to say.. I admit it. I was wrong. My claim was false. I apologize for my stupidity. And I’m sure you all will have all kinds of fun with that.. kc will copy & paste this the second it posts no doubt.. I don’t care. I care about honesty and truth.
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“and that cyrus’ army walked right into babylon without much resistance (not with the medes taking babylon and destroying it like jeremiah prophesied). ”
Medo persian empire is seen as one and the same sparkie. You’ve already admitted that and you should have kept reading your history book. Babylon gets destroyed just the way Jeremiah states pretty violently even with crucifixions. Just liek Jerusalem they had one peaceful taking and then a violent one
Heres going to be your problem going forward (because unlike Kathy might still believe I don;t think either you or nate give a rip about finding truth or wanting evidence). The medo persian empire being one and the same makes Rome the last empire in daniel’s vision and therefore NAILS rome not being conquered but falling apart AND also having a revival right around the time of Israel becoming a nation again
two more prophecies to add to the list. Both fulfilled.
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“Yes, after doing some reading, I’m convinced that ALL scripture is “God breathed”, according to the writings in the scripture itself. I still have some thinking/ reading to do on this though.. I’m probably still going to argue that what YOU all perceive as mistakes is not enough to dismiss God. It sounds too much like a lawyer getting a murderer off on a technicality.” – kathy
I really appreciate this entire comment.
When i was a believer, i never worried about looking at the numbers, the places, and didnt stress over names and never laid anything side by side – i was concerned with the POINT. I was raised to believe it was true and believed that without question for many years. It was from god, plain and simple, and everything was going to workout in the end, whether i understood it or not.
So I tried to glean the important moral and character concepts out of it. “How can I apply this to my life?”
now there were always things that i didnt understand, but I threw that aside as “lack of understanding,” or “maturity.” I assumed it worked out.
At some point, i after seeing several things that seemed to conflict with history and science, I stepped back and asked myself, “how do i know this is from god?” I was reminded of the story of the old and young prophet – where the young prophet was told to go and send a message to this king and leave right away, and not stay and eat at anyone’s house and go back a dfferent way. But an old prophet stopped the young man and told him that god said it was alright for the young man to stay and eat. So the young man believed him and was later killed as a punishment.
the moral was always, “trust god over man.”
I considered that and finally realized that i had always taken man’s word for it. always. God didnt write the bible. man did. and man claimed god inspired them… but what proof did they have? Miracles? no, they were claims of miracles, and we dont have those today – at least i haven’t seen any.
these events led me to more research and more questions to where i eventually ended up no longer believing the bible was from god. I am convicted. Convinced.
Other have researched and have come away more sure of the bible. You may as well, and that’s fine. But our goal should not be to eye a desired conclusion and then work toward that conclusion, but start with aiming at the truth, whatever that may be, and whether we like it or not.
Seek and ye shall find, right? Thanks for the comment. good look to you.
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Actually, Kathy, I think quite the opposite. I have deep respect for the fact that you are willing to admit that.
It’s what we’ve been trying to say and while no one until William addressed that particular scripture, I was under the impression that was the presumption you were operating by. That the scriptures contain no errors; that it has been preserved by the Holy Spirit and kept from error.
Anyway, I think it’s quite big of you to apologize for that.
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“Medo persian empire is seen as one and the same sparkie. You’ve already admitted that and you should have kept reading your history book. Babylon gets destroyed just the way Jeremiah states pretty violently even with crucifixions. Just liek Jerusalem they had one peaceful taking and then a violent one” – mike
which history book says medopersians took babylon?
all the ones I’ve read say the persians took it. Cyrus’ own record says nothing about sharing an empire with the medes.
and daniel, doesnt specifically state “Rome.” it could be, or the last kingdom could be the greeks, who also splintered after Alexander’s death. Nate has written about it.
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