You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
“really? so you believe prophecies and actual fulfillments occur without god? ………are you a christian? ”
Dude for the sake of these comments its better that we just not interact because quite honestly I just find your observations always so silly (You and ron). Thats why you see me interact with arch and Ark more than you. You really provide nothing but silliness.
Within the context of what Ruth said she suggested that the actual coming to pass of the prophecy had to have some indication that God had intervened. It is not a requirement. like the walls prophecy you ran away from. No one says not having walls surrounding your cities would be a miraculous event. Now knowing that it wouldn’t be needed then yes tha
However If you wish to twist that into your usual juvenile nonsense then knock yourself out. I was in school once myself – Its summer break and things get boring real quick right? Got to make the day pass some way. Anyway grown ups got to get to work now. Remember……Theres always Disney if you get bored again.
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You illustrate perfectly what this blog is about. Its not about being reasonable and discussing things. That’s a farce. You ask things of Christians for the SOLE purpose of trying to concoct some narrative to rebut what they have to say.
Unlike you?
In this case its QUITE OBVIOUS that you don’t have a clue about how Jews were granted the land. That wasn’t dependent on how much they were “bound and determined to have it” (Yeah after a few million of them died in gas chambers they were just ready to invade and take over their land…since they wanted it so bad. Nothing like being gassed Ruth. Apparently the cyanide makes you into X- men by key mutations. Did you know David Ben-Gurion made a chunk of cash towhen he sold his story to Marvel for the making of Wolverine?).
I don’t even think that’s what I just said. Let me retry. They believe that land to be promised to them by God. I didn’t say they took the land by force in 1948. I’m certainly not downplaying the atrocities of Holocaust. No, they immigrated to the land from all over, by the tens of thousands. Why? Because the think it’s theirs, no matter who is occupying it. And, yes, there was a Jewish insurgency.
http://www.academia.edu/349671/Britain_and_the_Jewish_Underground_1944-46_Intelligence_Policy_and_Resistance
Insurgencies happen all over. They’re happening right now. When the UN intervenes and resolutions are drafted, are you going to say God did that too?
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Wait…for prophecy fulfillment to be part of the submission of evidence to the claim that there is a God, God need not be involved?
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I just threw that figure into the mix. Could be more, could be less.
There will no doubt be a number of societal changes that could well influence the rapid breakdown of religion and god belief, not least the eventual freedom from dependence on oil.
You can work out the reason for yourself, Mike, I’m sure.
The Internet is another, Call it global awareness.
As we move from a ”need for greed” to a ”need to feed” and eventually a realisation that we are all merely human, and deserving of a little more respect the divisive nature of religion will
seem like anathema.
Why should people listen to the pathetic bleating of people like you and your lunatic, fear inducing god belief?
Why should people be forced to wear clothes dictated by god belief?
Why should people suffer physical mutilation because of god belief?
And goodness knows how much more utterly ridiculous dogma?
And for what? The vacuous promises found in man-made religious text claimed to be ”god inspired”.
Truly, the more one looks at this stuff the more it, and those that push it, seem so completely off the rails that it is surprising it has nor yet been declared the cause of mental illness.
And yet, two steps away from Mainstream Religion is often regarded as totally nuts – Creationism, Evangelism, ID, Ken Ham , Ron Wyatt, ACE schooling. The list goes on and its a similar story in other regions as well.
Those countries that have moved away from the accepted norms of church, religion and god belief already, in many cases, consider the likes of you and Kathy rather odd ( maybe even dysfunctional?)
Based on this blog alone, I would venture this is a given.
Religion has never, not once, come good on its promises. This is why so many of the clergy are leaving, why many churches across Europe stand almost empty. Why the excesses and abuses perpetrated by many – across several religions are coming to light. Religion and the worship of the supernatural is unnatural.
As I said…it’s only a matter of time, Mike.
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” like the walls prophecy you ran away from. No one says not having walls surrounding your cities would be a miraculous event. Now knowing that it wouldn’t be needed then yes tha” – mike
ooohh, so that’s how it works for you… you take a prophecy, and if any tiny portion of it comes true, despite the fact all of the prophecy didnt, then it serves as “fufilled…”
that’s is ridiculous, but then, so are you – so i see the connection.
and sorry, i didnt mean to “runaway” from it, i just didnt think there was anything there. There is a big fence, and the middle east is filled with walls, buT i wont argue with you. if you want to maintain that israel has no walls guarding it, then okay – your prophecy still lacks fulfilling.
but behold, ezekiel said no walls and there are no walls. are there any who can deny such a miracle?
your god is a god of wonders… not all powerful, and his prophecies must have the 50/50 ratio that kathy has talked about.
neat.
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“but your link was stupid. it didnt address all the problems or even all the verses. i suggest you read it before you post it next time.
But the parts it did talk about were lame anyway”
ROFL…..kiddies…when their points get busted they instantly go to the juvenile words and hand waving. See why you are never worth the time?
well…..no…… of course you don’t
“It’s stupid. John says “before passover” and your article says that’s not what he meant… that may solve it for you, but what contradiction cant be “explained” in such a way? really, tell me.”
John says this you silly person you
“John 13:1-2 (Darby)
1 Now before the feast of the passover, Jesus, knowing that his hour had come that he should depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, loved them to the end.
2 AND during supper, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas [son] of Simon, Iscariote, that he should deliver him up,
the link I gave explained this to you but you are either too dense or just pain dishonest to deal with it
see the capped word in verse 2 “AND”. Its a conjunction in English and Greek indicating another thought. It PROVES that verse about before the passover referred to jesus realizing that his time had come to shortly depart from the world . Whats stupid is you not seeing that even after the grammar and the link makes it obvious.
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mike, you’re an idiot, read the other passages before you comment again. that was one of the problems with your article – it didnt cover everything.
John: 13:1; 18:28, 39; 19:14, 31, 42
comment on all of them. that will help, not taking two, pretending the context of john doesnt exist and saying “that settles it…”
It does not. It is lazy, it is dishonest, and it’s just incomplete as well a stupid.
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“Truly, the more one looks at this stuff the more it, and those that push it, seem so completely off the rails that it is surprising it has nor yet been declared the cause of mental illness.”
Ark, I disagree
I don’t think its as simple as what you have layed out.
different faiths have permeated and shape both the history of past lives and those of us that find ourselves here.
different faiths have manifested and expressed themselves in different ways. In powerful ways. Just one example:
The salvation Army in Australia does provides a lot of necessary care for those who slip through the cracks of this country. day to day needs are met through these people, who are motivated through faith. I just can’t paint all faiths and beliefs with the same brush.
There are people who inspire others and do brilliant things. For many of them (not all) faith is a very real part of their lives, which motivates them to do very real things, that provide for very real people who need shelter, food, kindness and people to just care.
My hat goes off to them, because I don’t go and organise housing or hot food for hungry on the weekends. How is this service, this one example a mental disorder Ark?
Ryan
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“. No, they immigrated to the land from all over, by the tens of thousands. Why? Because the think it’s theirs, no matter who is occupying it. And, yes, there was a Jewish insurgency. ”
Ruth what can I say? You are quite clueless. did I ever say that Jews had no interest in the land or that none lived there? Your link only underlines what I said – Jews could not take the land without help from the British and even later UN resolutions. The idea that they would eventually take it back just because they really really really wanted it is just soo stupid. Many people have wanted their nation back. and no try another links – they did not fight their way back in to reclaim it. They were reliant on third parties so the claim of self fulfillment is just drivelling nonsense.
Further when the prophecy was made there was no telling what might have become of the land over the hundreds and nearly thousands of years. Had anyone of several nations in europe or england claimed it for themselves and established themselves there Jews could want it it all they want and they would not have gotten it no matter how hard they tried.
Its just a silly argument on your part. Sorry its a fulfilled prophecy and there’s nothing you can do about it. Can you say its not enough? Sure . Its only one – but no fulfilled prophecy at all – rubbish and obvious rubbish. I can only imagine how much handwaving will ensue once you realize there are additional details of how they would occupy the land and what would happen when they did
because you see I know your “secret”
It aint nothing bout finding truth
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Portal, can you honestly say that if religion had NEVER been invented, there wouldn’t have been those who empathized with the plight of their fellow man and stepped in and done much the same beneficial things? I’m a dyed in the wool atheist, yet I’ve risked my life on occasion, to help bring voting rights to all Americans, simply because it was the right thing to do. The same is true with work I’ve done with Special Needs children – religion had absolutely no bearing on any of it. I didn’t do it for a god, I did it for my fellow man.
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Some are motivated though their faith to blow themselves up. Some are motivated to cut themselves with whips to prove their devotion, to murder those they don’t agree with.
And then there are some who are motivated to visit the sick in hospital, to be with those who have lost hope, to sit with those who have been hurt, to raise awareness of those who have no voice. And those people who do this are not only valuable members of a society, they show me that I can be more, that life can be brilliant. And many of these people are devout, but not bent on destruction or hate.
There are differences. And the differences are based on the God, faith, teachings and hope they place their trust in.
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@ Kathy
Ark,
me: “You and Neil Tyson and every other atheist LIES to yourselves by believing that knowing how it all works somehow disproves a Creator.”
“Wrong, Kathy. Very wrong.
The atheist is in no position to categorically state there is or is not a creator.
What we ARE saying is this:
The evidence offered up so far for this creator deity, especially by theists such as yourself and Mike does not warrant consideration and can be dismissed.”
Wrong, very wrong Ark. What atheists like Nate and others here clearly claim is that God or a Creator doesn’t exist.. period. You all make this claim and then always try to backtrack when cornered. If you truly are in “no position” to state God doesn’t exist.. then STOP claiming we are not created beings.. that we evolved from pond scum, fully explainable through your god.. science. Which, it is most certainly NOT fully explainable through your god. Your god says we shouldn’t be… quite the opposite of explaining existence.
No one is Backtracking. Your claim is that there is a creator. The atheist says there is no creator ….Based on The Evidence
Let me restate that for you.
Based on the evidence provided by the religious who claim there is a creator the atheists rejects, out of hand, such a claim.
I hope I made myself clear, Kathy?
We – atheists – are saying that, if there is a creator then not a shred of evidence has been provided by those making the claim to establish this as fact or even probable.
And I am saying this, if you have evidence then I for one will consider it.
And you are especially wrong in claiming that there is no “warranted” evidence for the God of the Bible.. you are FACTUALLY wrong on that. Again, the evidence for the God of the Bible far exceeds all other religions.. that warrants consideration.
No, there is nothing in the bible concerning Yahweh that can be verified,
The divinity and godhood of Yeshua were bestowed upon this character by the church. Simply study your history.
“It is unverifiable, not falsifiable and is largely derived from erroneous fallacious religious text.”
Then how do you know that ANYTHING about the past is accurate? I bet you accept plenty of accounts that come from non Christians.. huh?
A lot history cannot be considered accurate. But then most people reject all supernatural historical claims that fall outside of religion.
To treat religion in the same way historians treat all history would quickly rubbish every supernatural claim ever made by religious people and religious text.
Furthermore, you reject out of hand supernatural claims from other religions, old and new, so why should your religion be afforded special treatment? That is nothing but special pleading.
The overwhelming majority of the Bible which gives dates, names, places etc.. are VERY MUCH verifiable. And all of that can also be falsified. And also proven erroneous.. but despite the desperation of people like you and Nate and others, nothing’s been proven erroneous.
The entire Pentateuch is fiction. Yes there are places in the bible that can be verified. So what?
There are many novels that use real names and real places as part of the plot. I do it in my own writing.
I am not desperate in the least. Truly I’m not. I tend to follow the lead of unemotional experts in the field. People like Devers, Finkelstein, Herzog, Kenyon, Wolpe, and a host of others
The likes of Craig, Habermaas, Ken Ham, Mike Licona, Lee Strobel and their ilk have tittle or no credibility outside of religious circles.
And this blog is full of comments that offer evidence for the truth of the Bible.. I don’t know where you’ve been.
The perhaps you could please list just ten things that illustrate the truth of the supernatural claims of the bible?
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“it incomplete as well a stupid.”
🙂 🙂 Poor will is about to have a breakdown because yet another alleged contradiction is crumbling before his eyes.
As the link also explains the passover was not just one meal. it also refers to the whole feast time. As kathy rightly predicted – this like almost all of your “contradictions” are products of your own ignorance of what the terms even refer to.
Cue the Finding “Truth” fall back all purpose argument
“Well….ummm… errr….God should have made it easier for me to understand. People who can’t be bothered to look things up should ….ummmm. be accommodated.”
I really got to run Will. Seriously and honestly have a great day.
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And he’s off to seal the deal that will leave him “set for life” – “Who was that masked man?” – “I dunno, but he sure was a putz!”
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Even if the entire week of the Feast of Unleavened Bread was occasionally referred to as “Passover,” just as we might refer to several days around Dec 25 as “Christmas,” there’s still only one actual Passover meal, as referred to in John 18:28. And there’s only one day of preparation for it, as referred to in the other verses. John really couldn’t be clearer here. And since this is the same day that the Jews prepared the Passover lamb, the connection to Jesus is very significant, which explains why John mentions it over and over in his gospel.
But contrast that with the synoptics, and they all agree with what Mark lays out in Mk 14:12-17:
Verse 12 is very clearly talking about the same day that John is — it even uses the same language about preparing for the Passover. However, according to the synoptic gospels, Jesus wasn’t crucified until the following day. Once evening came, as verse 17 says, Passover began, and that’s the day Jesus was crucified (according to them).
It’s hilarious to me that in the face of these very clear passages, you can make the most ridiculous statements, like claiming this as a contradictions has been “busted” or is “silly” or is “crumbling.” Believe it or not Mike, but this kind of bluster drives doubting Christians away faster than anything else. So thanks, I guess.
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“Portal, can you honestly say that if religion had NEVER been invented, there wouldn’t have been those who empathized with the plight of their fellow man and stepped in and done much the same beneficial things?”
Hey Ark, hope your well
No I can’t say that, I don’t know what the world would be like if this was the case 🙂 I suppose it depends what you mean when you write religion.
Although suffice to say, that’s not the world we find ourselves on.
Politics exist. Religions do exist. I think there is a difference between following faith and the maintaining of organised religion in the sense that faith can be expressed in many ways. And like the different members in the Body of Christ, I see Christianity as expressing itself in different ways. Since the church is made up of people 🙂
I see religion in a systematic angle as more a reflection of traditions, that may or may not have been used to venerate God. Just like those buildings that are said built to the glory of God. Some were funded and completed through violence. Some went through multiple transitions and were used for different purposes and congregations. Like the Notre-Dame Cathedral. Anyway I’m babbling a bit 🙂
When I think of Organised religion in regards to , certain images are triggered, and that includes amazing buildings and architecture and ceremony. As amazing as this is, and as much historical and traditional value certain rituals have
James 1:27 reads that:
– Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. (ESV) –
I don’t do this at the moment. in regards to your question, under this definition if I imagined that that this was never practised… in the sense that true religion never existed, then I believe the world would be a far lesser place of quality.
Thanks
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“As the link also explains the passover was not just one meal. it also refers to the whole feast time. As kathy rightly predicted – this like almost all of your “contradictions” are products of your own ignorance of what the terms even refer” – mike
mike, is your daddy able to talk, or is he an idiot too?
you listed 2 verses and still are avoiding addressing the rest. why?
the fact that the passover (1 day) and the feast of unleavened bread (7 days) can all sometimes be referred to as simply the “passover” is fine, but doesnt answer the problem for obvious reasons… well, should be obvious reasons, let me try to explain it to you.
john says before passover… but if mark is right and it was during passover, and then IF we are to splice them topgether for a more clear view, then it still doesn’t make sense.
how would it be “before passover” if it was during passover as you suggest? It is a silly way to express it, but okay, let’s say they were silly people.
John also says it was the day of preparation… How many days of preparation were there, mike? The day before the passover meal was teh preparation, when they baked their bread and slaughtered their lamb. They didnt slaughter a lamb every night. but lets say that they really were in fact talking about preparing for day two of the feast as you suggest.
Why were the jews concerned about being clean only on the sabbath? wouldnt that have had that concern the day before, when it was the real passover? your argument just doesnt hold water.
You should really read the all passages.
here they are again:
John: 13:1; 18:28, 39; 19:14, 31, 42
cue your typical response:
“Well….ummm… errr… you’re waving your hands, changing the goal posts, worshiping krauss, and the singularity equals jesus, and you just dont understand. People who can’t be bothered to look things up, or think rationally are ….ummmm. likely christians.”
i hope you have a good too, and may you find some sense laying around that will help you survive the day.
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“yet I’ve risked my life on occasion, to help bring voting rights to all Americans, simply because it was the right thing to do. The same is true with work I’ve done with Special Needs children”
And Arch, Its brilliant you have participated in those things… my hat also goes off to you 🙂
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Portal, RE: “Hey Ark, hope your well” – Arch, here Ryan – not Ark – the easiest way to tell us apart, is that I’m the good one. But I’m not irreparably offended, and he needs the compliment, so what the hell?
I was just left with the impression that in your earlier comment, you were saying that without religion as a basis, people wouldn’t have been performing the kindnesses you described, but from personal experience, I’ve not found that to be true.
Your last statement set me to pondering: “…in the sense that true religion never existed, then I believe the world would be a far lesser place of quality.”
While on the one hand, I can accept that possibly that some religions press us to see beyond ourselves, which I view as a good thing, beneficial to humanity – not all do, so it comes down to “which religion,” and I must admit, I took serious issue with your phrase, “true religion,” because each religion will claim that it is true, while I would hold that none are.
Again, Portal, this is friendly discussion, not Mike/Kathy-style vitriol, just to be clear.
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I know —
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Arch,
I think I could have said what I meant more clearly.
By true religion I was referring to what James 1:27 refers to as religion that is pure.
i.e To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
So when you asked the question above… if religion in reference to this definition had never been invented, then I believe the world would be a far less decent and awesome place.
I was not trying to say:
yes!!!! my particular denomination is the true religion!! we are the only ones doing it the right way!!!!!!!!
because that would require me to know the ins and outs of ever denomination, which I don’t.
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I understand – there’s just been so much “Big Picture,” “compelling evidence” crap running around here the past couple of weeks, that I’m hesitant to make assumptions about what ANYone means.
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“because each religion will claim that it is true, while I would hold that none are.”
oh I don’t know 🙂
I seem to recall you speak quite fondly of the flying spaghetti monster 🙂 I admit I am not an adherent to his vermicelli wile or his tortellini minions…
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@Kathy, you wrote
“From my own personal experience, I am convinced that “esp” is real.. I can see how some of it might be scientifically explained one day but some I just can’t see.. as one example, I had a dream/ nightmare about a horrible motorcycle accident, it happened at night and I was the only one to come upon it, there was a young couple lying in the road, it was very gory and I was horrified, running from house to house trying to get help.
It happened the very next day, in real life….And this isn’t the only dream.. I’ve had several dreams, and other intuitions, that defy logic. There is no “natural” explanation for knowing about something that hasn’t happened yet.”
My mother was staying with me to help out after I gave birth to my daughter. She told me that she woke up from a dream/nightmare feeling that someone in our immediate family was going to die that day. She couldn’t shake it. A couple of hours later, my husband was found dead.
——————–
“The tendency for … telepathic experiences concerning death or crisis to occur on days when the geomagnetic activity is significantly quieter than the days that precede or follow the experience have been found for collections of experiences that occurred during the latter quarter of the last century and this century. This pattern is not unique to spontaneous cases. Over six decades, larger effect sizes for psi experiments occurred during years of quieter geomagnetic activity.
…analyses of [certain] dream telepathy studies also indicated that the geomagnetic activity on nights in which the contents of were most strongly correlated with the target stimuli had been significantly quieter than the nights in which the dreams did not match the target pictures.” [M.A. Persinger, ‘Geophysical Variables and Human Behavior LXXI. Differential contribution of Geomagnetic Activity to Paranormal Experiences Concerning Death and Crisis]
——————–
You would have, most likely, been considered a witch had you shared your experience with your fellow conservative Christians a couple hundred years ago or less, then tortured and burned at the stake. 😉
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I know, I know; said I wouldn’t comment anymore but Nate, can you get a ‘like’ button? ^^^
. . .giggle, giggle. .
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