You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
Arch, I have no idea hey why I do that… 🙂 maybe because you both begin with Ar- I dunno 🙂
Anyway I realise you are both your own people 🙂 Your named after a bird right? and Ark is named after an Egyptian king?
maybe its because I’ve got an aversion to birds,
after all as a child I was attacked by a de fossilised archaeopteryx…in a freak petting zoo accident.
it was kinda weird, but you know what they say, fool me twice, shame on me…
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“You do know that Zionism was breaking out in Great Britain?” – So is Islam.
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Hi Carmen 🙂
“I do – and always will – think that the people in my church are important. (I have many friends who aren’t ‘church people’ that I feel the same way about) ”
“the emphasis is on just doing the best one can, trying to be a good neighbour and conscientious steward of the earth.”
I’m down with that 🙂
I still believe in Jesus, its kind of funny because its been a sort of realisation more than just a choice. I’ve come to realise I still have faith, and to pretend I don’t would be me pretending to be someone else.
Thanks for giving me a glimpse into your world 🙂 I’m glad your familiar with Australia. Hope you had a great time.
“:you know, the Golden Rule, helping others in distress,”
yeah I agree, I think if I focused on these things more, and what Jesus actually taught, rather than other things to get anxious over, then I feel im heading in the right direction 🙂
Thanks again Carmen,
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First you call me “Ark,” then you call me a bird – have you considered reading Carnegie’s How To Win Friends and Influence People? I am a transitional species – something Creationists maintain never existed.
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Carmen,
“We’re all in this together!”
I agree,
and the better we all understand each other, the fewer ships pass one another in the night.
the less worlds smash and collide over misunderstandings.
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Arch
I have not read that,
“I am a transitional species”
Is that like a trendy way of telling me your vegan?
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Night! 🙂
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Yes, it its. I was referring to the Zionism that was a result of the Holocaust sympathy of WWII – not only in Great Britain but the US.
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Arch said:
““The fictitious god of Islam is a god of violence and hate based on the lies of Muhammad.” – Whereas the fictitious god of the Bible is a god of violence and hate based on the lies of hundreds of priests. She’s right, there IS a difference. But I believe it was Mr. Spock who once said, “A difference that makes no difference, IS no difference.””
Sorry Arch, the Christian God never commanded us to kill all the infidels. There is a huge difference between the two religions.
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William, you said:
”
Fair is treating them the same, examining them the same. giving equal time and using an equitable measure for each. You tell me, is reading the entire bible and studying biblical apologetics the same as hearing a few “basic beliefs” of other religions?”
So, by your reasoning, I should learn all about Satanism, as much as I have Christianity before I dismiss it?
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The OT god commanded that very thing. Very little difference, really.
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“So, by your reasoning, I should learn all about Satanism, as much as I have Christianity before I dismiss it?” – kathy
not at all. I think you should learn all about it if you’re going to say that one has more credentails than the other though.
What if someone from Islam heard about something the bible (like the days of jesus’ crucifixion) and then just tossed christianity aside based on that?
wouldnt you think that they were just misinformed or that they didnt give it a fair shake?
wouldnt you expect them to dig deeper and to examine their own religion with a critical eye – dont you think their soul would depend on such an attitude?
and if that;s the case, should you set the example you expect them to follow?
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William, cont..
“I mean, when you read the bible, did you ever consider that it may be false, or do you just “know” that it’s from god; and when you consider the other religions, did you view them the same way at the start. ”
Of course I had that question in my mind.. I STILL do sometimes (but less and less often)… and that’s NOT against scripture/ God.. believe it or not.
“William, I don’t know of any evidence that disproves the Bible.” – kathy
this is an interesting answer.
Do you know of any evidence that proves the bible?
and now I’m curious, what evidence disproves the other religions that you disagree with?”
I’ve already answered these questions.. several times, in part 1 & part 2.. even in my comment you are responding to.
As for John’s contradiction of the day of Jesus’ crucifixion, I’ll research that and give my thoughts.. please remind me if I forget..
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Nate said:
“Sorry Arch, the Christian God never commanded us to kill all the infidels. There is a huge difference between the two religions.
The OT god commanded that very thing. Very little difference, really.”
It’s not the same at all Nate. God’s command was for a specific group of people in a specific situation.. for reasons other than them being “infidels”.. the key difference is that God’s command at that time was NOT an ongoing command to kill all infidels. This is NOT the case with Islam’s teachings.
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Kathy, the Law of Moses is replete with commands to kill those who violate God’s laws, especially those who follow after false gods — that’s what an infidel is.
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The idea that the OT god is cruel, barbaric, maybe even evil is not new. You should look into Marcionism, as an example.
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“Do you know of any evidence that proves the bible?
and now I’m curious, what evidence disproves the other religions that you disagree with?”
I’ve already answered these questions.. several times, in part 1 & part 2.. even in my comment you are responding to.” – kathy
@kathy,
thanks for taking the time to answer.
do you realize that the evidences you gave are the same evidences claimed by most religions? How do you find them credible for the bible, but incredible for the other religions?
and thanks for taking the time to read the passages in john before answering.
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““So, by your reasoning, I should learn all about Satanism, as much as I have Christianity before I dismiss it?” – kathy
not at all. I think you should learn all about it if you’re going to say that one has more credentails than the other though.
What if someone from Islam heard about something the bible (like the days of jesus’ crucifixion) and then just tossed christianity aside based on that?”
A contradiction is much different than a fundamental teaching of evil. It depends on the specifics.. and the best place to start is with the theology.. and then the basic evidence/ credentials. The theology of Islam of exactly what the word means.. “submission” .. by force, according to the teachings. And their credentials are the word of a single person who, there is no disputing, was a pedophile and a murderer. No need to look further.
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Nate,
“Kathy, the Law of Moses is replete with commands to kill those who violate God’s laws, especially those who follow after false gods — that’s what an infidel is.”
This was for the Jews.. NOT non believers.
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What about the Canaanites?
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William,
““Sorry, that does NOT answer the question.. HOW does removing the “gaps” disprove God??” kathy
disprove? no, it doesn’t disprove god,..”
Yes, that’s what you all keep telling me.. AFTER you make statements like this:
“The more knowledge we gain by learning about the universe, the smaller and smaller and smaller the need becomes for your “god of the gaps.”
“God is an ever-decreasing pocket of scientific ignorance, that gets smaller and smaller as time goes by.”
~~ astrophysist, Neill Degrasse Tyson ~~
You are missing my point to Arch. You all can’t have it both ways. These comments
imply that scientific knowledge disproves God. And this is fundamentally FALSE.
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“A contradiction is much different than a fundamental teaching of evil. It depends on the specifics.. and the best place to start is with the theology.. and then the basic evidence/ credentials. The theology of Islam of exactly what the word means.. “submission” .. by force, according to the teachings. And their credentials are the word of a single person who, there is no disputing, was a pedophile and a murderer. No need to look further.”
@ kathy,
okay, then say the looked at the OT and saw where the israelites killed women and children, or where god killed all the first borns, etc… or where jesus condemned a fig tree to wither and die because it didnt bear fruit…?
and “islam” does mean to submit, to the one true god… Most muslims are very peaceful and very hospitable. If you know islam, you’ll know the koran respects people of the “book” the bible, jew and christian.
Those murderous self proclaimed muslims arent true muslims.
And the fact that one man was told the words of allah, and that they were preserved perfectly is a miracle. How could an illiterate man rise to such power and spread the religion across the world if god want helping him? and kathy, what about the martyrs?
Dont be a liberal, only those who submit before the true god will accept his prophet.
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Mike, you said:
“But its all rather pointless to this crew though Kathy. Look at what happened when I pretty much debunked Nate’s statement that there were no fulfilled prophecies in the bible by pointing to Israel being a nation again. The honest approach would be to say okay that is one even if they said that is not enough
Did we get that honest approach? No we had flat out denial in the face of obvious fact.”
Yes, I’m definitely noticing this. Or, if not a flat out denial, then the point is just ignored.. obviously hoping that it won’t be brought up again. I don’t understand how searching for truth and these actions gel.. they don’t.
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Kathy, science is a problem for god-of-the-gaps theology. In other words, when people point to something (even the beginning of the universe) and say “since we don’t understand how that happened, God did it,” they’re using god-of-the-gaps reasoning, and that has always failed in the past.
There are other arguments for god that science doesn’t really deal with. But the reason I just laid out above is why people like Tyson say science causes problems for the notion of God. And they’re right, when it comes to explaining the natural world.
That may not be a position you agree with, but it’s what they mean when they use it. Does that answer your question?
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“What about the Canaanites?”
They occupied the land that God had given to the Jews. This was all part of God’s
larger plan. They were not attacked for being infidels.
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