You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
“They occupied the land that God had given to the Jews. This was all part of God’s
larger plan. They were not attacked for being infidels.” – Or so said the Jews – did anybody ask the Canaanintes if THEY believed that god gave the Jews the land?
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Nate, you said:
“Kathy, do you think Muslims don’t have answers for everything you’re bringing up?
You claimed that all of Jesus’ teachings are about peace and love, but they aren’t. We didn’t get any teachings about Hell until Jesus. He said he came to bring a sword, not peace. He told his disciples to buy a sword, even if they had to sell their cloak to get one. He said he came to turn father against brother, etc.
Now as a Christian, I know you have answers for all of those passages. Do you think Muslims can’t do the same thing?
This is where you seem to keep missing William’s point. It would be very easy for a Muslim to look at the problems in Christianity and say that they don’t match up to how God would do things, but you believe that looking through Christianity more deeply answers those problems. So why shouldn’t you put forth the same effort in understanding Islam?”
Nate, I believe Muslims have come up with their own answers just like Mormons do and any other religion that claims “truth”.. but the difference is that their answers are not valid.
You seem to forget that not all of these religions can be true.. only one can be true. So the others ARE lying! So, of course they all come up with answers, but their answers are based on lies, just as their religion is based on lies.
Yes, Muslims can make the very same claims about Christianity.. but Christianity can successfully defend itself, Islam can’t.. based on it’s OWN words.
And as I explained to William, it’s not rational to put forth the same effort in understanding a religion that has basic fundamental flaws in it’s theology and credentials. There’s no need to look further… when the religion is based on evil.. some might disagree, and they would be liberals of course.. who don’t want to be politically incorrect.. to them, even “evil” shouldn’t be “judged”.. it’s pathetic.
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And in regards to Jesus’ teachings.. even those examples you gave are rooted in peace and love.. Hell is a real place.. so you are saying that Jesus shouldn’t address it? Or that proves He’s not about peace and love? Every word of Jesus is to help us NOT to end up in that place.. that’s love.
“He said he came to bring a sword, not peace. He told his disciples to buy a sword, even if they had to sell their cloak to get one. He said he came to turn father against brother, etc.”
You, as usual, aren’t applying the correct context. You choose to apply a literal context whenever it fits your narrative. The actual narrative of Jesus is His love.. demonstrated by what He did on the cross. But you choose to NOT apply this context to a small portion of the words He spoke.
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Ron, a business or a religion can have credentials.. I’m not going to waste time getting the definitions you obviously chose to omit.
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“If you knew ALL of the Koran, the Jews are ‘pigs’, ‘dogs’ etc and need to be killed. There is zero ‘respect’ for Jews and Christians. You might find a few passages that claim ‘acceptance’ or respect.. but there are many many MORE passages that state the very OPPOSITE!” – are you trying to tell us Kathy, that YOU’VE read the Qur’an, or did you just visit some apologist’s website and get the Cliff Notes?
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““This was for the Jews.. NOT non believers. – but to Muslims, Kathy, YOU are the non-believer.”
You fail to understand my point.. I’m not a Muslim..those laws that Nate was referring to were for the Jews.. but with Muslims it’s for everyone.
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“Points I will address later today/ tonight.. – after I ask somebody how to answer them –“
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I really want to stop reading this ridiculous train wreck! But I just can’t stop reading the insanity. Sigh…
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@ Graham,
I really want to stop reading this ridiculous train wreck! But I just can’t stop reading the insanity. Sigh…
I know the feeling. I know I should just look away, but I just…sigh
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“I’m not going to waste time getting the definitions you obviously chose to omit.”
The reason you’re no going to waste time getting them is because you already KNOW they don’t exist. Otherwise you would have already posted and linked to them.
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“You did say you were objective, right?” – I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, she doesn’t know the meaning of the word – or lots of others, apparently.
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“after I ask somebody how to answer them”
Have no fear… Blovius Maximus will soon be here. 🙂
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“One IS following the true teachings and the other is NOT.” – TRUE according to whom, you?
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Ron,
If I take the time to find and post the evidence that you are wrong.. AND were deliberately deceptive, it will be the last time I address any of your points. You’ve proven to be a waste of time due to your dishonesty/ lack of objectivity.
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And the thing that scares me most about Kathy, is that she has a child, whose mind she is poisoning, just as her own was poisoned, and he has to live in the world she leaves behind.
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“You, as usual, aren’t applying the correct context. You choose to apply a literal context whenever it fits your narrative.” – Translation: the Bible doesn’t mean what it says, it means what Kathy says it means.
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Sorry to break my ‘silence’ but that fact ( Kathy has a child) just breaks my heart. ..oh, so terribly sad and unjust. I could weep. I say that in earnest compassion, Kathy.
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“Ron, a business or a religion can have credentials.. I’m not going to waste time getting the definitions you obviously chose to omit.” – I can see your point, why bother trying to be objective at this late date?
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“…but with Muslims it’s for everyone.” – wrong again, not for the believers.
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Kathy, like I said: If you had the evidence, you’d already have posted it. You know you can’t support any of your claims so you’ve resorted to practically every logical fallacy: bald assertions, special pleading, circular arguments, “no true Scotsman”, straw manning, ad hominem. personal incredulity, shifting the burden of proof, appeals to the majority, appeals to authority, Pascal’s Wager. hand waving and stomping your feet… just like every other Christian apologist before you. You’ve convinced no one here to your point of view. Just pack it in and go home to lick your wounds.
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Carmen,
Could you please elaborate on why you could “weep” because I have a daughter? And please be as specific as possible.
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“Have no fear… Blovius Maximus will soon be here. 🙂” – Suppose they take turns, clocking in and out?
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“You’ve proven to be a waste of time due to your dishonesty/ lack of objectivity.” – If THAT were the criteria we went by here, Kathy – NO one would reply to you —
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Kathy, see Arch’s comments at 4:58. . .and then perhaps check out Homeschoolers Anonymous to read about young adults who were indoctrinated with your brand of fundagelicalism.
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“Sorry to break my ‘silence’” – I don’t know why you felt the need to be silent in the first place, Carmen, every comment you’ve made has contributed.
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