You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
@Nan,
“Note that there’s nothing about liberals not “respecting the rights of others.” In fact, by being tolerant, they are much more inclined to show respect for the rights, opinions, or practices of others.”
I’ve read at least 16 peer-reviewed studies (but there are more) that would confirm your assessment. In the American Journal of Political Science they note that people who have more fearful dispositions also tend to be more politically conservative, and less tolerant of immigrants and people of races different from their own. The fMRI scans research showed increased gray matter volume in the right amygdala (fear, disgust, aggression, anxiety) of conservatives. In other words conservatives showed significantly greater electrical activity in the right amygdala, a region involved in the body’s fight-or-flight system. The research further showed that it’s not that conservative people are more fearful, it’s that fearful people tend to be more conservative.
In contrast, liberals showed increased gray matter volume in the anterior cingulate cortex region with significantly greater activity in the left insula. These regions were associated with social and self-awareness, emotional processing (emotional intelligence), and empathy. It also showed that liberals are generally the ones advocating for civil rights, fair play, a national security strategy based on alliances, and are more accepting to change.
This helps explain why conservatives are often fundamentalists – evangelicals and submit to an authoritarian, totalitarian god such as Yahweh. Their obedience is most likely dictated by fear. Understanding how conservatives think (especially religious conservatives) helps bring awareness about why they are generally very controlling and want (and need) everyone to think like them. I don’t say that as a put-down. It simply helps us understand that they tend to see people like atheists and agnostics (or anyone who acts and thinks differently from them as a threat to their security.
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About this liberal/conservative issue. It’s been my experience that while conservatives harp about big government they seem to be the ones who want to tell everyone else what rules to live by; whereas the liberals I know, while fiscally more liberal, also apply freedom more liberally as well. They actually think individuals have enough sense to live their own lives. *gasp*
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Thanks, Victoria. It’s nice to be validated.
A very close friend of mine is a conservative and boy-oh-boy … your definition describes this person to a “T.”
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Ron, note #2
cre•den•tial (krɪˈdɛn ʃəl)
n. Usu., credentials.
1. evidence of entitlement to rights, privileges, or the like, usu. in written form: No one admitted without credentials.
2. anything that provides the basis for confidence, belief, etc., or for extending credit.
v.t.
3. to grant credentials to.
adj.
4. entitled to or granting privileges, credit, etc.
Random House Kernerman Webster’s College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/credential
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“It’s been my experience that while conservatives harp about big government they seem to be the ones who want to tell everyone else what rules to live by”
Ruth, I concur. We have also discussed this in previous posts, but research shows that religious conservative states also tend to be the most dysfunctional — having the highest poverty, highest obesity rate, highest HIV/ADS and STD rate, lowest education, lowest high school graduates, highest infant mortality, highest teen pregnancy, lowest sex education, etc. Collectively they tend to have the highest violence rate, highest incarceration rate, highest death penalty rate, highest divorce rates, highest depression rate, highest infant mortality rate and are considered the worst states for women to live.
So in their dire need to control everything — things get out of control.
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“Thanks, Victoria. It’s nice to be validated.”
Your welcome, Nan. 🙂
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The ones who NEED to hear what you’ve said, Neuro will ignore it or ridicule it, but it needed to be said, and they can never say it wasn’t offered to them.
Thanks.
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. ..and I ask you, Neuro, WHY is there a woman on here advocating conservatism??? Vigorous head shaking. . .
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Arch said..
““You’ve proven to be a waste of time due to your dishonesty/ lack of objectivity.” – If THAT were the criteria we went by here, Kathy – NO one would reply to you –”
Based on this and the great majority of your other comments… HOW OLD ARE YOU Arch???
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“So in their dire need to control everything — things get out of control.” – BUT politicians know how to use those control issues to their advantage, toss in a little Old Time Religion, and those sheeple will follow you anywhere.
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““Sorry to break my ‘silence’” – I don’t know why you felt the need to be silent in the first place, Carmen, every comment you’ve made has contributed.”
She’s set herself up with a way out incase she’s in a debate she can’t win.. I’ve seen this a lot among liberals.
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“. ..and I ask you, Neuro, WHY is there a woman on here advocating conservatism??? Vigorous head shaking. . .” – sounds like a case of “Daddy’s Little Girl —
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“Kathy, see Arch’s comments at 4:58. . .and then perhaps check out Homeschoolers Anonymous to read about young adults who were indoctrinated with your brand of fundagelicalism.”
Carmen, I asked for specifics.. surely if you so upset you could “weep”.. you’d be able to give specifics in your own words.. to make it easier for me to address your claim. I really don’t even want to invest this much time with you because of your convenient setup to avoid points you can’t defend or argue against.
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Thanks for your feedback, Arch. I just wanted to share the information to shed some light on why I think this discussion seems to have gotten no where. Neurological research also shows that no matter what is presented, it will most likely be rejected because they (conservative Christians) primarily think and perceive from emotional, fear-based regions of the brain. It’s not so much the information that’s being presented but who’s presenting it. In their mind/indoctrination we are considered the enemy of their god — a tool of Satan.
Also, there’s a lot at stake when one leaves their belief system like Christianity. Leaving the fold means multiple losses, including the loss of friends and family support at a crucial time of personal transition. People lose their social network, sometimes their jobs, and may experience intense emotional pain during the deconversion process. It’s a very lonely, stressful life event.
So, IMO, I believe that people have to be curious, open of new information, have a willingness to step outside of their comfort zone, and be more incline to embrace change. If one has a brain signature that is not conducive to this, it’s unlikely that anything we share has already been rejected before being presented.
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““Based on this and the great majority of your other comments… HOW OLD ARE YOU Arch???” – 150 million years, last April 27th, but I fail to see the connection —
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“I really don’t even want to invest this much time with you because of your convenient setup to avoid points you can’t defend or argue against.” – that’s basically what you’ve been doing for over a week now, yet we still waste time with you —
You don’t want to check out her link because you don’t know the meaning of being objective.
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“BUT politicians know how to use those control issues to their advantage”
Indeed. And I’m sure that it comes as no surprise that studies show approximately 95% of people follow in crowds without their conscious awareness. The study out of the University of Leeds said they follow like sheep. Jesus called his followers sheep.
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It sounds like, Neuro, you’ve described Kathy to a T. It’s WAY too late for NumbNuts, but I was hoping Kathy had a chance, but considering the odds stacked against her, likely not. She’s just not strong enough to face the losses she would have to face, to do it.
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Correction: it’s likely that anything we share has already been rejected before being presented.
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Nan said:
“How about infidel (Noun: A person who does not acknowledge your god) instead of liberal (Noun: A person who favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties; Adjective: Showing or characterized by broad-mindedness, tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition. Synonyms: big-hearted, giving, generous)
Note that there’s nothing about liberals not “respecting the rights of others.” In fact, by being tolerant, they are much more inclined to show respect for the rights, opinions, or practices of others.”
Neuro said:
“@Nan,
“Note that there’s nothing about liberals not “respecting the rights of others.” In fact, by being tolerant, they are much more inclined to show respect for the rights, opinions, or practices of others.”
I’ve read at least 16 peer-reviewed studies (but there are more) that would confirm your assessment. In the American Journal of Political Science they note that people who have more fearful dispositions also tend to be more politically conservative, and less tolerant of immigrants and people of races different from their own. The fMRI scans research showed increased gray matter volume in the right amygdala (fear, disgust, aggression, anxiety) of conservatives. In other words conservatives showed significantly greater electrical activity in the right amygdala, a region involved in the body’s fight-or-flight system. The research further showed that it’s not that conservative people are more fearful, it’s that fearful people tend to be more conservative.
In contrast, liberals showed increased gray matter volume in the anterior cingulate cortex region with significantly greater activity in the left insula. These regions were associated with social and self-awareness, emotional processing (emotional intelligence), and empathy. It also showed that liberals are generally the ones advocating for civil rights, fair play, a national security strategy based on alliances, and are more accepting to change.”
Oh, this is just so precious.. I can’t pass up this debate.. all others go on the back burner for now..
First, Neuro, I’ve been trying to get to your earlier comment all day.. I haven’t even read it all, I keep getting distracted but I do want to say how sorry I am for what happened to you.
Ok, I just read it all.. fascinating information you provided.. but it still defies logic.
As for the point about what would have happened to me if I’d shared this experience a couple of centuries ago, I don’t understand your point. No conservative Christian today condones those actions. And further, those people were NOT following Jesus’ teachings.
Ok, back to one of my favorite topics to debate.. liberal ignorance..
for starters, let me share an article I wrote on another WordPress blog several years ago..
I’m very proud of it because it shows very well how dangerous and destructive liberal ignorance is. And the foundation of this liberal ignorance is what liberals call “tolerance”.
please read and grasp THE point.. if you can..
http://tothewire.wordpress.com/a-troubling-new-social-ill-reverse-ignorance/
cont..
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This, from one Homeschooler —
“I was denied physics because I was born female. I had been taught all my life leading up to that point that girls don’t use power tools, that girls don’t build, that girls can’t understand higher math, that girls can’t hammer straight, that girls can’t and don’t understand science or engineering, and that all of those things are for boys.”
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This, from another:
“I fight for the people I love and for people I don’t even know because I desperately want them to know that they are worth it. I fight my own demons to give my children a healthy mother and so I can explain the scars to them someday.”
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This, from Minnesota:
“Minnesota Association of Christian Home Educators probably doesn’t want it known that some of their so-called ‘homeschool pioneers’ founded a high-control religious sect that fostered and hid criminal abuse. Nor does HSLDA want their members to know that the Twelve Tribes isn’t the only abusive high-control group their dues have gone to support.”
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And another:
“I’ve lately started facing the ways in which the teachings of ‘emotional purity’, (a la Josh Harris, the Ludys, and others) have damaged the part of my brain that makes healthy relationships function.”
But go ahead, Kathy, hide your head in the sand – it’s your daughter who will have to pay the price. But then, you’re used to having others sacrifice themselves for you, aren’t you? It’s what your cult”s claim to fame.
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What a potpourri of bile and vitriol!
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