You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
Perhaps in YOUR mind, your article on tothewire.wordpress.com “shows very well how dangerous and destructive liberal ignorance is” ,,, but it is just more of the same from you and your twisted thinking. Your right amygdala is so busy it’s a wonder you’re able to function.
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Kathy,
Again, all those definitions apply to individuals, not religions. Can you name one governing authority that grants credit or credentials to religion? Lest you’ve forgotten, the U.S. Constitution is a secular document, which First Amendment specifically states: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.
There ends the civics lesson for today.
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Kathy, thank you for your kind words about my partner, and for the link. I read through it and will read through it again and watch the video to try and get the gist of your fear and concern. You wrote:
“The Liberal left has expertly and successfully trained society to reject ALL negative ideas about ANY group of people…. no matter what the comment or idea is or what group of people it is about…it is liberal dogma, liberal ignorance, liberal hypocrisy and liberal poison. Fanatical Liberals, in their quest to force the world to accept their choices and their views, have truly created a monster in our society.“
I kind of see projection here. Our political system is very dysfunctional, no doubt. Most politicians are addicted to power and money. But I do agree that based on neurological research, liberals tend to be more inclusive and that might be a disadvantage in certain circumstances. But the alternative is living in a constant state of suspicion of the Other and that breeds dysfunction.
But consider this: for thousands of years, the 3 Abrahamic faiths have fought among themselves, left enormous death and destruction in their wake, and (mostly Christians and Muslims) have spread their doctrines throughout the globe, destroyed thriving cultures in the process. Now I realize that you will probably say “Hey, communism has done such and such.” But doesn’t Christianity purport to be a religion of love and peace? I’ve yet to see any evidence of this. It appears that these 3 faiths on the extreme spectrum are unable to get along with each other and yet all three faiths believe in the same Abrahamic god. Christianity plagiarized Judaism, and Islam plagiarized both Judaism and Christianity.
I have no issues with people who believe in their god or gods of choice. But I do take issue with those who think I am an enemy of their god.
“You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.” James 4:4
Kathy, am I your enemy?
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“150 million years, last April 27th, but I fail to see the connection”
Arch, you don’t look a day over 149 million years old. How do you manage to do it?
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“Arch, you don’t look a day over 149 million years old. How do you manage to do it?”
Ron, he has mastered the art of preening. 😀
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LOL—indeed he has.
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So after reading up to this point I have now stopped reading Kathy’s posts as well.
Kathy said ” “Hayden, no, I’m fully in my mind.. it’s you and all liberals who get really really confused here.. due to your liberal brainwashing desire to be “politically correct”..”
I was going to reply, “WOW! And now I can stop reading your posts.”
And when I got to the end of this thread I realized if I’m not reading Tblacksman’s replies and now I’m not reading Kathy’s then why am I reading? I am enjoying the others so I will keep reading but I’m done posting… unlike Carmen;)
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“Arch, you don’t look a day over 149 million years old. How do you manage to do it?” – really good sunblock.
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Arch said, “And another:
‘I’ve lately started facing the ways in which the teachings of “emotional purity”, (a la Josh Harris, the Ludys, and others) have damaged the part of my brain that makes healthy relationships function.'”
Fuck. 😦 (I’d say I didn’t go as far off the deep end as the author, but still…)
Arch, thanks for sharing that!
I have to say I wonder what are good and decent boundaries in various types of relationships. If anyone wants to share thoughts or links for a recent deconvert on this topic, please feel free.
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“It’s hilarious to me that in the face of these very clear passages, you can make the most ridiculous statements”
: ) 🙂 You know what I love about you nate? Whenever you bluster about Hilarious or you could rub my face in it etc you ALWAYS make sure to make a huge “ridiculous” blunder that just proves what I say about you doing such very poor research.
Whats hilarious this time? this gem 🙂
“31 Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day [what high day? Oh,right: passover]),
Classic! lol
Whats so hilarious? your barf “what highday? oh right the passover” 🙂
Why? Big problem for you Nate my boy. You can’t prove that premise.
Theres next to no support in the Bible for the passover being a sabbath much less a high day sabbath. If you even beg for it theres a much better candidate (even without the traditional Friday interpretation).
Do better research. I’ve told you over and over but you just won’t listen because in your arrogance you think Till taught you everything.
You know What has GREAT support for a sabbath Nate?(besides saturday) – the first day AFTER the passover- the first day of the feast of unleavened bread. read er and weep
Leviticus 23:5-9 (KJV)
5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD’S passover.
6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.”
get it Nate? The first and last day of the Feast of Unleavened bread would be sabbaths where no work was done – the passover itself? nope according to a perfectly clear reading of Leviticus thats a no go.
Numbers 28 says the same thing. Start digging for some supporting passages but it won’t change that
14th = Passover
15th = one of the sabbaths of the unleavened bread feasts (if referring to the entire feast and passover together “a sabbath of the passover”).
want it in your beloved ESV?
Leviticus 23:5-7
“The LORD’s Passover begins at sundown on the fourteenth day of the first month.
And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.
On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work.”
Ahem…..unambiguous enough for you? Tell me again about “in the face of these very clear passages”. Could that be clearer? A sabbath comes a day after the passover. Now of course we know as you have conceded that the two were conflated by the time of the NT and you could refer to the passover or the unleavened bread the same but that wouldn’t change the sabbath requirements given in the Torah.
I’ll let the above passage settle in a bit in the hope that maybe a light bulb will go off and you find out how devastating that is to your and williams alleged contradiction case ……………
Nah you still might not get it.:)
Only one thing you have left in your verses still standing – but not for long. If you had even bothered to look at the link I gave you you would have seen that it addresses another very salient point.
The term “the preparation” always refers elsewhere to the day before a sabbath (some believe it became another day meaning Friday). You just let the cat out of the bag that you thought so to. Matthew, who you claim as a synoptic gospel does not support john, says that the term preparation day -paraskeus is another common noun by itself for the day before a sabbath
“42 Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath”
So paraskeus is a noun that stands for the day before a sabbath not a preparation time modified by whatever follows.
Furthermore you just clean miss that John himself states the same thing using the word as a proper noun too WITHOUT ANY QUALIFIERS and in the same passage you quote mined.
14:42 So there they laid Jesus, because of the Jews’ Preparation Day (paraskeus), for the tomb was nearby.’
So rather than paraskeus having a modifier it was often used by itself to designate a given day before a sabbath. Hence the term “paraskeus of the passover” a proper noun for a day before a sabbath would refer to a preparation day before a sabbath of a passover feast or in other words a preparation day taking place on the Passover day (the 14th being the day before the 15th sabbath) or during a passover feast (wors for you there is no definite article in the Greek)
and yes all of that data would ummmm. “bust up” crumble all the verses you just claimed were so ahem “hilariously” clear as being a contradiction.
The link I gave before also addresses “eat the sabbath”
Sorry another weak claim of a contradiction from Nate and company. What else is new? As usual you think things are ridiculous because you do such a ridiculously poor job of researching al the various views and issues you claim to know all about.
Finally thank you for this admission you at last blurted out
“Believe it or not Mike, but this kind of bluster drives doubting Christians away faster than anything else. So thanks, I guess.”
Why thank me unless you feel I am assisting you or helping you toward a goal or a wish you have? In this case a desire and goal to drive “christians away”.
Think I didn’t know your garbage about just wanting to share your journey and not wanting to evangelize for atheism was exactly that?
But dont kid yourself Nate. You have a few very active posters – however you are not on the front lines of atheism causing many to depart from the faith
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“Oh, this is just so precious.. I can’t pass up this debate.. all others go on the back burner for now.. ”
Oh vey! nooooooo. 🙂 I thought you might be winding down my sister. Lol
what good is it with this set? All you have here is a few people who opened up free WordPress blogs that think they have become authorities on that basis (neuronotes taking the cake because she actually believes she is leading source of information for neuroscience….lol 🙂 ). lets review the last week
Ark barf’s out some claim revealing he doesn’t know that verse counts are not in GK manuscripts (and demonstrates that he can’t count).
Nate lies that there are no fulfilled prophecies in the Bible and tries to float the hypothesis that if all prophecies are not fulfilled then none of them can be
Ruth rushes in to defend his claim barfing that if a people real real really want any piece of land anywhere they can get it. Her offsprings will no doubt be trying to take the british isles to own and occupy for themselves if they really really want it. Can world ownership be far off (or more realistically fantasy island with a short guy yelling – the plane the plane)
Arch introduced us to the white fairy of everything out of nothing sans any evidence at hs meet and greet and brunch with high priest Krauss. genuflect and say ooooommm …..oooommm
Ron and William …. well they are Ron and william so why bother get into their inaneness
Carmen barfs that we are all brothers and sisters
Nan swears because she self published a kindle book and writes PERIOD at the end of her sentences she has disproven the existence of God…lol
🙂 🙂
Just one HILARIOUS bit of silliness after another!
Stewardship….. Kathy. Why waste time with these pretenders of seeking the truth? this blog is for rubberstamping. Its where they all come online to hang out and talk about what they flaked out from (whatever that really was) and why it was a good thing to sooth themselves (Think Norm and Cliff hanging out at Cheers) Its NOT for dialogue.
I’ll contact you on Twitter like I said I was going to but again ….think stewardship of your time.
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Little Kathy seems not to be with us this evening, either she turned in early, or she ran out of bile and vitriol, and frankly, I can’t see that happening.
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Kathy,
I checked Bill Keller where you got much of your information from on the link/your blog post you shared. Here’s what I’ve learned. He is a convicted felon who spent about 30 months in federal prison for insider trading. Apparently he found Jesus behind bars. After getting out of prison he earned a degree in biblical studies from Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University.
I watch a video where he states that he launched a “vote for Jesus” campaign asking all Christian to “write in the Name of Jesus for President, because Barack Obama is an enemy of God and a true tool of Satan.”. He said (during the 2012 elections) that if either President Obama or Mitt Romney were elected millions of people would go to hell.
I watched another video where he told a caller that they should commit suicide. Sources state that Keller later denied making the claim and said suicide is a sin, but several people who recorded his show posted the video on YouTube. You know — radical Christians like him caused my husband to commit suicide.
Keller has become notorious for his vehemently anti-Muslim and anti-LGBT stance. The Southern Law Poverty Center classifies Keller and his ministry as a hate group “for the dangerous positions he takes on various issues.”
I found it ironic that the very scripture I posted in my comment to you — James 4:4 — he quoted in one of his videos where anyone who doesn’t head the bible and submit to the biblical god is an enemy of god. He also stated that Obama is an enemy of god.
Kathy, if these are the types of people you support, then this is very disconcerting. After watching his videos, and reading his articles, Keller appears to be either a con artist or he’s hyper-religious and hyper-religiosity is a mental disorder.
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Correction: heed the bible
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I doubt she’ll understand a word you’ve said, Neuro. She’s too far gone.
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Now I understand why I was getting triggers from her comments. 😦
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Mike, thanks for replying to the issues surrounding the day Jesus was crucified. There are a few details that still concern me, though.
First, you are correct that the Passover itself is not spoken of as a Sabbath, and I misspoke in my comment. However, it seems to me that John is saying that Passover itself fell on a Sabbath Day that year. Again, it says this in John 19:14:
In your comment, you said that this really just meant it was the day of preparation for the Sabbath during Passover week. But there seem to be some problems with this view, as the Pulpit Commentary points out:
This also fits better with John 18:28, which points out that the Jews had not yet eaten the Passover meal. There was only one of those each year, despite the Feast of Unleavened Bread lasting 7 days. This is an extremely important point, and it clearly indicates that the Passover seder had not yet been eaten.
So John seems to be saying that Jesus was crucified on Friday, both the day before the Sabbath (Jn 19:31), and the day before the Passover (Jn 18:28; 19:14). It’s also interesting to note that in John, there’s no record of the disciples asking Jesus about how they should prepare for the Passover. If their final meal with them occurred before the Passover, as the rest of John indicates, then this makes sense as there’s no need for them to ask that question at all.
In Mark (14:12), on the other hand, the disciples ask Jesus about preparing for the Passover:
The rest of that chapter details their eating the Passover meal.
I really don’t see a satisfactory way to explain this issue, and that’s why the tone you use when you discuss it is so puzzling to me. At the very least, these passages are difficult and confusing. It would be easy to see why someone would get the wrong idea about them. And beyond that, to resolve them, John’s statements have to be reinterpreted — and he makes more than one statement that would make one think the actual Passover seder had not yet been observed.
Regardless, I’m not sure that we can say much more about this without repeating ourselves. Thanks again for the detailed comment.
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Nan said:
“Perhaps in YOUR mind, your article on tothewire.wordpress.com “shows very well how dangerous and destructive liberal ignorance is” ,,, but it is just more of the same from you and your twisted thinking. Your right amygdala is so busy it’s a wonder you’re able to function.”
Another comment void of substance. Honestly, this seems to be the only thing liberals are good at.. kindergarten comments that are full of “you” and “your”… instead of anything that actually addresses the points.
What “twisted thinking” am I guilty of Nan? I bet you won’t answer with ANYTHING of actual substance.. it’ll just be more childish personal attacks.. watch, everyone…
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Is anyone at all taking into consideration the fact that the very earliest of these was written 35 years after the alleged event, and the latest one more like 70?
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Neuro said:
“Ruth, I concur. We have also discussed this in previous posts, but research shows that religious conservative states also tend to be the most dysfunctional — having the highest poverty, highest obesity rate, highest HIV/ADS and STD rate, lowest education, lowest high school graduates, highest infant mortality, highest teen pregnancy, lowest sex education, etc. Collectively they tend to have the highest violence rate, highest incarceration rate, highest death penalty rate, highest divorce rates, highest depression rate, highest infant mortality rate and are considered the worst states for women to live.
So in their dire need to control everything — things get out of control.”
Giving these statistics is very deceptive.. the conservative states are also the southern states.. where more poor choose to live because it’s cheaper/ warmer and because conservatives are MORE charitable (according to research/ statistics).. the northern liberal states are much less charitable.
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Nan said:
““How about infidel (Noun: A person who does not acknowledge your god) instead of liberal (Noun: A person who favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties; Adjective: Showing or characterized by broad-mindedness, tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition. Synonyms: big-hearted, giving, generous)”
Funny that you didn’t give your source for the definition of “liberal”.. um, I’m guessing it was a… LIBERAL source? lol…
Here’s the overall problem with your definition of liberal… it’s wrong.
“a person who favors a political philosophy”.. this part is correct..
“..of progress.. ” that would be one of the WRONG parts.. a full 180 degrees wrong.
in other words.. just the opposite is true. Liberals take us BACKWARDS.
“.. and reform..” um.. yep, just like Obama said.. a “fundamental transformation” kind of reform.. the kind that will put him down as the WORST president in this country’s history.. (Jimmy Carter says thanks!) …
“.. and the protection of civil liberties.. “… oh, yeah, the kind of “liberty” that only applies to whomever the liberals decide? The “spreading the wealth” kind of “liberty”? After all, poor people have a “RIGHT” to other people’s money! Those who worked hard for their money don’t have a right to FAIR taxation.. what a ridiculous notion.
“broad minded”? Yep, that’s true, but only if it involves those things that are immoral.. it doesn’t at all apply to people who hold different views than liberals.. aka Christians.
” tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition.” And yes, tolerant of change.. anything that goes against God and moral values.
“Synonyms: big-hearted, giving, generous)”.. and this one is my FAVORITE.. big hearted.. except for when it comes to protecting the most vulnerable.. the unborn… and except when it comes to charitable giving.. again, it’s conservatives who give more to help those in need.. and by the way, those in need are often what liberals call the “other” ….. which kind of defeats that card liberals love to play.
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Nan, cont..
““Note that there’s nothing about liberals not “respecting the rights of others.” In fact, by being tolerant, they are much more inclined to show respect for the rights, opinions, or practices of others.”
Liberals have no clue what “tolerance” means. You all ignorantly believe that it means we are to “respect” the beliefs of others. It’s one of the most ignorant of all the liberal beliefs.. and it shows just how hypocritical liberals are.. because very FEW liberals “respect” Christian beliefs.. much LESS “tolerate” them. Yet you all are so quick to “preach” this belief of “respect” to Christians whenever we disagree with yours or others religious or social beliefs.
You don’t have to respect Christian beliefs.. as we don’t have to respect the beliefs of liberals or satanists or Muslim radicals, or just Muslim non radicals. I have ZERO respect for lies and beliefs that go against God. But I DO respect an individual’s RIGHT to have their own belief. Liberals can’t process this difference.. it’s too hard to grasp. I’ve said it for years now.. discernment skills are very weak with the liberal. And, so, we are stuck with people like I referenced in my Reverse Ignorance article.. people who can’t determine simply basic differences, even when it’s spelled out for them.. due to liberal brainwashing.. which includes the fear of being politically incorrect.. of being labeled “intolerant” or “racist”.. it’s a powerful tool that liberals use to control the masses and keep people thinking in that liberal, anti God, mindset.
And this is why Arch and Nan were spitting out their own “vitriol” in reference to my article.. they don’t like being exposed.. they don’t like their liberal tactics being outed. They are so angry that their dishonest tactic of controlling societal thought through intimidation is losing it’s power.
Awe.. boo hoo!.. poor Arch.. poooor Nan! poor liberals.. you’re losing your control.. people are starting to think for themselves. Dishonesty and manipulation will only work for so long.. just ask Obama. 🙂
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Kathy, your last name isn’t Perkins, is it??
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“First, you are correct that the Passover itself is not spoken of as a Sabbath, and I misspoke in my comment.” – nate
@nate,
I could be mistaken, but when i read the first 8 verses of Leviticus 23, it makes me think that Passover is a high sabbath, or a “sacred assembly” in which they could not work.
check me on this
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@Arch,
Is anyone at all taking into consideration the fact that the very earliest of these was written 35 years after the alleged event, and the latest one more like 70?
Which alleged event are we talking about? There’s so much going on in this comment section.
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