You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
“Nate, I believe Muslims have come up with their own answers just like Mormons do and any other religion that claims “truth”.. but the difference is that their answers are not valid.
You seem to forget that not all of these religions can be true.. only one can be true. So the others ARE lying! So, of course they all come up with answers, but their answers are based on lies, just as their religion is based on lies.” – kathy
@kathy
this is insane. literally. You’re saying that since the bible is true, then the other religions must be lying.
Well that’s cool, but when we ask for your evidence you point to martyrs, some historical accuracy and some archaeological support (ignoring the areas of contention), which all the other religions have as well…
Oh but right, since the bible is true, then the evidence for the bible must be stronger, therefore it’s right and the others wrong…
you can’t see the flaws in this reasoning?
If you have 12 napkins covered in pooh, which one are you going to wipe your mouth with? the one with less pooh?
I would just use my sleeve and avoid the pooh all together… so you can take christianity if you really think it’s better than the others, but it still has it’s errors, whether you want to pretend it doesn’t or does.
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“Dishonesty and manipulation will only work for so long..” just ask Little George W, Dick Cheney’s hand-puppet, who:
• After 8 years, couldn’t find Osama Bin Laden
• Lied about Iraq ’s WMD’s and ties to Al-Qaida, committing America’s resources to pursue his personal vendetta
• Tried having Mohamed elBaradei (head/UN International Atomic Energy Agency) fired, for repeatedly warning that Saddam had no WMD’s
• Authorized the Patriot Act, converting the FBI into the KGB
• Exceded Osama’s score of 3300, for the number of American deaths for which he’s responsible
• Appointed a crony’s roommate to head FEMA, who fretted tardiness for dinner while raging water swirled about Americans cowering on New Orleans’ rooftops (“You’re doin’ a HECKuva job, Brownie!”)
• Cut 80% of the Army Corps of Engineers’ request for levee improvement at New Orleans Lake Pont Chartrain, to fund his war in Iraq
• Signed a tax cut package primarily benefiting the rich
• Proposed an offsetting budget cut, reducing appropriations for Medicare, Medicaid, educational programs, food stamps and student loans
• Threatened vetoing the McCain Amendment outlawing torture and human debasement, while maintaining: “We do not torture”
• Authorized offshore “Black Sites” to hold anonymous prisoners indefinitely, without recourse (or witnesses)
• Allowed oil company cronies to gouge Americans for record gains (ExxonMobile 3rd quarter: $100 billion!), while having the power to regulate the market by releasing Federal reserves
• Was certainly aware of Dick “Halliburton” Cheney’s secret meeting with these same cronies
• Advocated opening the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to those cronies, allowing them to rape virgin wilderness in pursuit of oil profits
• Let a former attorney for Chevron-Texaco head an FTC investigation into oil company price gouging
• Chose a timber industry lobbyist to head the Forest Service
• Put a mining industry lobbyist (who considers public lands unconstitutional) in charge of Public Lands
• Installed a utility lobbyist, who represented the worst air polluters in America , head of the Clean Air division of the EPA
• Made a Monsanto lobbyist Number 2 at the EPA
• Made head of Superfund, a woman who taught corporate polluters how to evade Superfund regulations
• Made Edwin Foulke (partner in a union-busting law firm), head of worker health and safety with the Department of Labor
• Signed a Republican bill severely limiting bankruptcy protection (pushed by banking/credit card/retailing industries)?
• Installed a Rove crony, Kenneth Tomlinson (who was under investigation for misuse of Federal funds), as Chairman/Corporation for Public Broadcasting, to nudge PBS toward the Conservative Right (Elmo’s NEKKID!)
• Appointed John “Mr. Congeniality” Bolton US Ambassador to the UN, behind the backs of vacationing Congress
• Put Stewart Simonson, general counsel for Amtrak, in charge of bioterrorism and other public health (including avian flu) emergencies, who has no experience – (“heck of a job, Stewie?“) – in public health, bioterrorism, epidemiology, or even management
• Appointed nine campaign contributors, including three longtime fundraisers, to the Foreign Intelligence Board, whose job it is to “advise the President on the quality and effectiveness of US Intelligence efforts,” including a top fundraiser/former business partner, and two Texas oil men
• Set lawsuit caps (benefiting those who funded his campaigns), limiting liabilities of insurance companies, doctors, pharmaceutical companies, tobacco companies, etc.
• Sought to privatize Social Security, guaranteeing billions to brokers in commissions and rollover fees
• Authorized pressure be put on the Food and Drug Administration to stall over-the-counter sale of the “Plan B” contraceptive, despite scientific findings that it’s safe for such dispensation
• Appeared determined to insert religion into public schools to brainwash American youth
• Retained Karl Rove as his dark Merlin, approving the Rovian smearing, through lies and innuendo, of his opponents: Ann Richards, John McCain, Al Gore, John Kerry, and John Wilson
• Refused to allow UN Human Rights experts to privately interview Guantanamo detainees (allows only the Red Cross, which keeps its findings confidential, reporting them only to the detaining power, vs the UN, which makes reports public)
• Pulled a disappearing act for twelve hours after the WTC was struck
• Continued to vacation at Crawford for two days, as Katrina bore down on Louisiana
• Wouldn’t acknowledge global warming
• Wouldn’t acknowledge evolution as a reality
• Met with Omar Bongo, President of Gabon, less than ten months after lobbyist Jack Abramhoff (later convicted of mail fraud, conspiracy to bribe public officials, and tax evasion) offered – for nine million dollars – to arrange such a meeting
• According to a recent U.N. report, had NO plan in place for governing post-invasion Iraq
• Denied foreknowledge of the sale of 21 American ports to an Arab company based in a MidEastern country known to encourage terrorists, yet he staunchly threatens to veto any legislation aimed at quashing the arrangement
• Demonstrated daily for the world that this country had a president who, despite his need to discuss the subject with intelligent, educated world leaders, couldn’t bother to learn to pronounce the word, “enuclear”
Now THIS would be Kathy’s kind of President, she even features him in her avatar, and why? Because he says such things as:
“I trust god speaks through me.”
~~ George W. Bush ~~
I recall another leader who basically echoed those sentiments:
“Who says I am not under the special protection of God?”
~~ Adolph Hitler ~~
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@ Mike,
Would you say then, since this is a prophecy fulfillment and there’s no getting around it, that God used Great Britain and the UN to bring about it’s fulfillment and thus his master plan?
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@mike/nate:
in addition LEv 23, we have passages like these:
“Numbers 9:13 – But the man that [is] clean, and is not in a journey, and forbeareth to keep the passover, even the same soul shall be cut off from among his people: because he brought not the offering of the LORD in his appointed season, that man shall bear his sin.
Numbers 9:6-12 – And there were certain men, who were defiled by the dead body of a man, that they could not keep the passover on that day: and they came before Moses and before Aaron on that day:”
Whether you want to call the passover a “sabbath” or a “high sabbath” or something else, the jews still had to be “clean” to observe it.
The gospel of John is explicitly clear on what day jesus was crucified, and it conflicts with the other gospels.
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Hey, William, RE:
“I could be mistaken, but when i read the first 8 verses of Leviticus 23, it makes me think that Passover is a high sabbath, or a ‘sacred assembly’ in which they could not work”
Do us all a favor (I’d do it myself, but I’ve got a REALLY full day!) – go to chabad.org, a Jewish website – they have a feature there that allows you to ask a Rabbi. Ask them your question, and they’ll get back to you via email. I’ve gotten quite a few questions answered like that. In fact, I subscribe to their newsletter, you can learn a lot that way.
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Kathy may be afraid to look at other religions, but I’m not —
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“You have a few very active posters – however you are not on the front lines of atheism causing many to depart from the faith”
Alexa rankings as of:
2014-06-28 – 19,197,081
2014-07-06 – 18,782,414 (up 414,667)
2014-07-15 – 18,353,974 (up 428,440, 843,107 since 6/28)
Keep posting Mike. At this rate, Nate’s blog will be in the top ten by this time next year. Your abrasiveness alone is enough to turn others from the faith. 😀
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“Do us all a favor (I’d do it myself, but I’ve got a REALLY full day!) – go to chabad.org, a Jewish website – they have a feature there that allows you to ask a Rabbi. Ask them your question, and they’ll get back to you via email. I’ve gotten quite a few questions answered like that. In fact, I subscribe to their newsletter, you can learn a lot that way.” – arch
Well, i’ve looked at several jewish websites, and they seem to agree with me – but I can see maike and kathy not being moved by that – the jews rejected jesus (they’re all liberal) so they’ll lie about the passover too…
I just want to avoid that… besides, there are actually several verses that speak about the jews needing to be clean, etc for passover…
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I’m saying, Ruth, that pseudo-Mark wrote his gospel about 35 years after the fact, if it WAS a fact, and pseudo-John, about 70 or more, with the other two pseudo-brothers in between – so we’re expecting authors to know which day something fell on, up to 70 years in the past. What day of the week did Christmas fall on in 1944?
The bone of contention between Nate and What’s-his-face seems to be what day of the week the passover landed on, in the year of the crucifiction.
(Oops, I accidentally misspelled it –)
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Thanks for the clarification, arch!
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William, RE: “so you can take christianity if you really think it’s better than the others, but it still has it’s errors, whether you want to pretend it doesn’t or does.”
But the way it works, William, is that the Bible is perfect in every way, and if it appears to have errors, it’s because you, as a flawed human being, are ascribing errors where there are none, you’re just not reading it right. It’s ALL YOUR FAULT!!!!
This, sadly, is the lens through which Kathy views the world. I feel sorry for her, and even more so for her little girl, but she’s beyond reach.
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Ruth was where Kathy is now, even to the point of writing to prominent atheists, that they were going to hell, much as Kathy said she tried to contact Neill Tyson, but Ruth pulled herself out of it. I just don’t get that Kathy is that strong, and people like “Mike” keep goading her to dig herself in even deeper.
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“But the way it works, William, is that the Bible is perfect in every way, and if it appears to have errors, it’s because you, as a flawed human being, are ascribing errors where there are none, you’re just not reading it right. It’s ALL YOUR FAULT!!!!” – arch
yes I know… It’s so confusing becuase that’s what the muslims say when you point out apparent errors in the koran.
But you know, kathy should realize that, if she were truly conservative, that god is powerful enough to make multiple inspired books and multiple paths to reach his grace. Since she cant disprove that notion, it must be true.
Just like I cant disprove that invisible rock and dirt eating aliens live on the moon and mars – so… as long as we’re not liberals, we can be sure that they are indeed there.
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“Thanks for the clarification, arch! ” – never a problem
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Exactly, Arch – I fear that she IS beyond reach; for a number of reasons that have been pointed out by many posters on this Blog. I, too, feel sorry for her little girl. I expect that those excerpts you gave from the posters at Homeschoolers Anonymous will be hand-waved off by Kathy, with the comment, “Pfft – all atheist propaganda!” I don’t know how anyone can read those accounts and not be moved. Is it any wonder that many of those young adults are now rejecting their parents and their parents’ god?
When I first read through Nate’s ‘letters’ I hoped that she would at least consider what he’s trying to tell her, but it’s clear that she has her fingers firmly planted in her ears. Yes, sad.
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OH, and p.s. – guys…. I love your sense of humour, eh!
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The only light on the horizon that I can see, Carmen, is that at one point in her conversation to NeuroNotes, she DID say that she had the occasional doubt, though if you’ve read her hate-filled blog, I can’t imagine that doubt lingered long. If you go though life with blinders on, you only see where your head’s pointing.
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Well, I finally read Kathy’s link and here are the points I gleaned:
1. She LOVES ALL CAPS (for that extra truthiness).
2. She makes up phrases (“reverse ignorance”) no one else employs.
3. She cites questionable sources (i.e. Bill Keller Ministries). This little disclaimer was especially cute:
This is what’s known as JAQing off…something Glenn Beck’s an expert at.
4. Like most religious neo-cons she has a severe hate-on for Barack Hussein Obama. Nonetheless, he fairly won two elections and shall remain the POTUS until January 20, 2017. (Neener-neener!)
5. She believes Mormonism is a cult (see comments 4 & 5). It must’ve really sucked having to choose between the gay, socialist, commie, atheist, Muslim, LIBERAL velociraptor and the heretical, Obama-lite cultist. And now it appears that Romney’s running again in 2016 along with the usual gang of idiots: Cain, Perry, and Frothy Mix. (No word on crazy-eyes or Palin…yet.)
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“(Neener-neener!)”
LMAO
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On a more serious note, here’s another study on the effects of religious beliefs on psychological health:
Psychological Medicine
Volume 43 – Issue 10, October 2013, pp 2109-2120
Copyright © Cambridge University Press 2013
Spiritual and religious beliefs as risk factors for the onset of major depression: an international cohort study
B. Leurent, I. Nazareth, J. Bellón-Saameño, M.-I. Geerlings, H. Maaroos, S. Saldivia, I. Švab, F. Torres-González, M. Xavier and M. King
Abstract
Results The analyses included 8318 attendees. Of participants reporting a spiritual understanding of life at baseline, 10.5% had an episode of depression in the following year compared to 10.3% of religious participants and 7.0% of the secular group (p < 0.001). However, the findings varied significantly across countries, with the difference being significant only in the UK, where spiritual participants were nearly three times more likely to experience an episode of depression than the secular group [OR 2.73, 95% confidence interval (CI) 1.59–4.68]. The strength of belief also had an effect, with participants with strong belief having twice the risk of participants with weak belief. There was no evidence of religion acting as a buffer to prevent depression after a serious life event.
Conclusions These results do not support the notion that religious and spiritual life views enhance psychological well-being.
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What I found amusing, Ron, was her spin on the title of the video she offered – “RADICAL Islam’s war against the West” – one mindset, her target audience of the mindless, will read the implication that Islam is a radical religion, whereas if cornered, she has a built-in escape hatch, which she uses – “We weren’t accusing ALL Muslims, only the RADICAL ones –” They learn to spin early, don’t they?
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Who, “guys”?
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Arch, meet the American counterpart: Y’all Qaeda!
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Check this, Ron, from Kathy’s blog – in her own words:
“I’ve had to make the point several times while debating with some of these reverse ignorant (who demanded PROOF that Obama’s questionable choices lead to his guilt ) that a democratic presidential election is NOT decided in a court of law where a person is innocent until PROVEN guilty beyond a reasonable doubt… proof beyond a reasonable doubt is NOT a prerequisite in order to not elect!!….We should be able to, and we MUST make our choices based on ALL of the available information, not just the proven facts… yet many of my accusers ( Democratic liberals) have insisted that I am wrong for bringing up even factual information on the basis that it leads to conclusions that have not been proven.”
Translation: we don’t need PROOF to decline to elect a Presidential candidate, rumor and innuendo is more than enough! Compare that to Karl Rove’s rush to get that “Swift Boat” book to market that, despite the fact that it was proven to be entirely false, served to derail John Kerry’s significant lead over Little George W, and win W the election.
Why was no one ever prosecuted for that hoax? Oh, that’s right, W was President.
And BTW, I’m not opposed to Kathy coining a phrase, “reverse ignorance,” I’m rather fond of coining phrases myself, such as “crucifiction.”
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Arch,
going to get serious with you for a tick
you recently have written the following this in regards to Kathy:
– “And the thing that scares me most about Kathy, is that she has a child, whose mind she is poisoning, just as her own was poisoned, and he has to live in the world she leaves behind.”
– “sounds like a case of “Daddy’s Little Girl”
– “that’s basically what you’ve been doing for over a week now, yet we still waste time with you”
– “Little Kathy seems not to be with us this evening, either she turned in early, or she ran out of bile and vitriol, and frankly, I can’t see that happening.”
– “I doubt she’ll understand a word you’ve said, Neuro. She’s too far gone.”
– “This, sadly, is the lens through which Kathy views the world. I feel sorry for her, and even more so for her little girl, but she’s beyond reach.”
Arch and Carmen, I say this respectfully but
you don’t actually know what kind of mother Kathy is.
So why be so personal?
If anything, comments like these give Kathy and other people more reason to reinforce a notion that people here are not willing to take them seriously. Which is what Mike would call “rubber-stamping”. You may disagree with her, but please leave her children out of this debate.
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