You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
posting atheist memes, back slapping and shutting down anyone who thinks differently from you turns this blog into a vacuum, or a club. There are already too many places on the internet like that. That’s just my opinion.
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Arch, my problem isn’t with coining new phrases, it’s with coining new phrases that make no sense. Read literally, “reverse ignorance” means reversing lack of knowledge/information. “And that,” as Martha Stewart would say, “is a good thing.”—not a social ill.
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Good grief!
These posts are almost as long as the bible but much more entertaining and contain more facts ( all bar two commenters)
Sigh..still no signs of either Kathy or Mike stepping up to the plate and offering any verifiable evidence for their god claims, I see?
Oh well…
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That’s funny, Ron.
Going through the comments on the ‘tothewire” site, I’m discovering that it’s not Kathy’s – she only had a guest post – but rather is hosted by a girl who actually calls herself, “tothewire.”
In those comments, a commenter who calls himself “Lawman,” who appears to be an attorney and seems to actually like Kathy, still said about her: “you just are incapable of getting over the ‘need’ to win as you are a very needy person.” To which, our Kathy – and I have come to think of her as “ours” -, as one could well expect, responded with, “ME?… I have a ‘NEED TO WIN’…ME???” Surprised, anyone?
I’m also discovering that our little “Church Lady” likes to overindulge in the alcohol from time to time – “Well, isn’t that special –?” At least she’s PARTly human!
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She’ll swear she was over-served, but I’m betting she under-declined.
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I find that difficult to do, Portal, as I perceive raising an innocent child in an atmosphere of hate and fear tantamount to child abuse, and it’s not in my character to allow such to go unquestioned. And I’m sure that by now, even Kathy has concluded that no one here takes her seriously – she only stays because she thinks she can somehow vindicate herself, or at least answer her lord and master’s calling to “spread the word”>
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Ron and Arch,
In regards to those posts you linked on Nates last post to Kathy.
Ron, I found this link you suggested thought provoking:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wfCS8jSsyNgJ:www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/october/survey-bible-reading-liberal.html
Although I don’t really think teachings in The Bible are liberal or conservative, since these later ideologies and polarisations came after, not before.
I also watched part 1 and part 2 of Neuroscience Explanations For ‘Spiritual’ Experiences – Part 2. found it interesting how the young man felt such a strong connection with the sensory input around him. That would be intense.
In regards to the links on the Ancient Hebrew conception of the universe, I think I came across a similar illustration during my yr 12 studies of religion class. Well something about The Firmament comes to mind.
This stood out to me.
“Evangelicals have generally come to adopt the position that the Genesis accounts of creation are primarily concerned with the meaning and purpose of God’s creative work and not with precise scientific details of how it was accomplished”
Although I identify myself as a Christian, not necessarily exclusive to any denomination (although I go to a Baptist church) I agree with the above. Genesis for example does not go into immense detail of how cells are formed or photosynthesis takes place. Its account focuses on other relationships.
“Kosmos was first used by Pythagoras”
I did not know that 🙂
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Actually, Ron, after reading the rest of the comments, I discovered that even her friends agree with you, and take her to task over it – which position, of course, Kathy being Kathy, she staunchly defends.
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I think Ryan made some good points.
We may be straying a bit in the discussion. I do think that many of the religious and political views Kathy has shared here are ill-informed and actually quite dangerous. And I agree with Arch that raising a child to think the same way is just as destructive as raising a child in the home of a KKK member, but Kathy thinks she’s doing the right thing with her daughter. She thinks she’s preparing her to live in a world riddled with sin and temptation. That doesn’t make her right, but if our concern is to help her see the pitfalls in her path, we’re not going to be successful if we put her too much on the defensive. It’s probably too late for that, but it’s still something to consider.
Kathy, it’s been my experience that positions too far on the left or too far on the right aren’t usually very trustworthy. Anyone who says Obama is the greatest thing ever and always makes the right decisions and can do no wrong is not really being objective. But anyone who says that Obama is the worst President ever, secretly wants the US to fail, is a moron (or evil), and is trying to completely redistribute all wealth is also not being objective. As with most things, the truth is somewhere in the middle.
So I would say this: if you find that your views are falling to one of the extremes, you may want to consider your sources of information. How homogenized are they? To find a clear picture of an issue, it helps to gather information from a wide variety of reputable sources.
I’m sure that you take the responsibility of raising your daughter very seriously — I’m sure you only want what’s best for her. I have three children, and they were one of the main reasons that my wife and I left our church — we believed that continuing to raise them in it would be detrimental to them. I think the best thing we can do for our kids is to love them and teach them that we will always have their back no matter what. And most importantly, we should teach them to think for themselves. To examine things critically, to question everything, and to always search for answers. If we tell them why we hold the views that we do, but encourage them to form their own opinions as they grow, then we’re putting them on a good path forward. Is that something you would agree with?
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Arch I still take Kathy seriously, even if I disagree with her use of the word liberal. And by that I mean that even though I don’t read everything that people refer to or post, if she writes something that I find insightful, and I happen to catch it, I’m not going to discount it just because she was the one who wrote it…
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Well, Ark, Mike is off somewhere, working on a business deal that he claims will “set him up for life,” while I would prefer that it resulted in SENDING him up for life.
And I suspect that Kathy is in school, as she usually begins posting about an hour from now. Or when she sobers up, whichever comes first.
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“And I suspect that Kathy is in school, as she usually begins posting about an hour from now. Or when she sobers up, whichever comes first.”
I give up dude
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“Giving these statistics is very deceptive.. the conservative states are also the southern states.. where more poor choose to live because it’s cheaper/ warmer and because conservatives are MORE charitable (according to research/ statistics).. the northern liberal states are much less charitable.”
Kathy,
The stats are solid and the Southern states are not poor by choice. Conservative states are also more dependent on the government. Red states had an average dependency ranking of 33.5, while blue states ranked 19.2 on average.
Also, when you take religious contributions (i.e. tithing) out of the equation, the Northeast is more charitable. http://philanthropy.com/article/FaithGiving/133611/ I served on church boards (including conservative mainstream denominations), for several years when I was a Christian. I know where the money goes. Rarely to the needy unless it’s to proselytize. 😉
But that is not to dis people who are often too poor to give. Studies show that when people experience well being they are more likely to give back to the community.
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I keep asking, “Who created Yahweh, your god?” and I get no viable answer.
One of the most frequent Creationist arguments, is that the eye is SO complex, with all of its mechanisms and abilities, that it MUST have been created. Yet a god that could create such an eye, must be infinitely more complex, and if a simpler thing is sufficiently complex as to require a creator, how much more so, the more complex?
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Arch ,
If your goal is to deconvert people, then I want no part of it.
If your goals are for example when talking about the whole liberals vs conservatives dichotomy in politics, to remove misrepresentation. That it is not as “black and white” as some people may assume,
then count me in that endeavour 🙂
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@arch,
Yeah, Dawkins made a similar argument about complexity in The God Delusion. It’s what finally moved me from deism to atheism.
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Ryan,
Why would it be bad to deconvert people? Do you also feel the same way about religious people who try to convert others to their religion?
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I’ll bet you ALSO didn’t know that Pythagoras was the first man to wear pants!
(Pythagoras Trousers – God, Physics, and the Gender Wars, Margaret Wortheim, Times Books, 1995)
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Nate, I feel like given our past discussions you know why I consider this to be something I don’t think I should be a part of 🙂
If a belief causes someone to murder or harm, then yeah 🙂 I think such a belief should be challenged. The difficulty is that what some people consider harmful others consider appropriate sacrifice or devotion.
Like circumcision for example.
But I don’t believe Christianity causes people to harm or abuse.
There may be individuals who use preaching to justify harmful behaviour, but that is a deviation of the faith. Thoughts? 🙂
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Arch
” also a passionate argument for the need to involve both women and men in the process of shaping the technologies from the next generation of physicists.”
I can dig that 🙂
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Thanks, Ryan. I think I misunderstood your comment. Sorry about that. I thought you were speaking generally, that helping someone move beyond their faith would be a bad thing. But yes, from your perspective as a Christian, I can understand why you personally wouldn’t want to contribute to someone leaving Christianity.
Thanks 🙂
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Poet Kahlil Gibran, “On Children”:
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life’s longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them, like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
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Neuronotes – you have touched on another of the reasons for my deconversion. Around these parts, the money goes to structure upkeep. You’d be amazed at the oil/electric bills for the year (for churches which are only open one or two days a week!), the upkeep of manses, and the cost of maintaining 100-yr-old buildings. I, like you, was involved in seeing fiscal records for the whole Presbytery – it’s staggering. I started to feel that I was doing volunteer work, essentially, to protect property. That got to me. It doesn’t feel like what church should be. When a congregation has nothing left in the coffers with which to do mission work, it’s time to ‘pack ‘er in’. I began to see the church as a club, and the dues are just too high. I know, I know – the evangelist feels that there’s a great pay off at the end, but UNFORTUNATELY you have to be dead to receive it. One more thing that just didn’t make any kind of sense to me.
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And Nate,
“Why would it be bad to deconvert people?”
then there is the more forthright concern, in regards to Christianity. that I wouldn’t want to be a stumbling block or be part in a person turning away from God. I see no reason to do so as a believer. And even if I wasn’t a believer I would still see no reason to actively do this, providing these people were caring and compassionate participants in society and the communities they move within.
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Nate, just read your response. All good 🙂
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