You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
NeuroNotes, I think my (relatively recent) studies of the negative impact of conservative Christianity has impacted me the most. When I first started to read on-line, I watched many videos of Christopher Hitchens. I couldn’t identify with him; he seemed to be anti-religion and I didn’t feel that way. After reading stories of Jehovah’s Witnesses who have been/are being shunned by their families for leaving the cult, stories of people who have come out of patriarchal, legalistic religions, and then delving into the lives of the ‘first generation’ homeschoolers who are speaking out about the emotional abuse of these damaging mindsets, I now know where Hitchens is coming from. It’s clear to me that the Religious Right has a definite agenda and they are working very hard to promote it. When I come across people like Kathy on blogs, she sounds like a mouthpiece for their hateful ideas. I think of all the hundreds of stories I have read about the damage being done by this mindset(particularly to women), and I cringe. Thankfully there are liberal, progressive people who are opposed to this form of tyranny and are taking their message to discerning, intelligent individuals. I think your messages should be broadcast far and wide. I don’t pray but I like to THINK and HOPE that society will be better off for it.
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Oh LOOK! It appears that the liberals/ atheists here are proving me right yet AGAIN..
As we are slowly moving into the political / social arena.. can it be?? That ALL the atheists here ALSO adhere to LIBERAL policies and beliefs?? Why YES!
As I stated, I know you all better than you know yourselves.. you’re ultimately motivated by your pride and ego. You all show exactly how dangerous pride can be.. and this is yet another testimony for how the Bible is the best “handbook” for our lives. Thanks for continuing to prove that, liberals/atheists!
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“William, this is YOUR “reasoning” of my reasoning.. it’s incorrect. The comments I’ve
made here support my reasoning.. and show that your reasoning is based solely on your own
distortions and perceptions.” – kathy
@ kathy,
did you read what you wrote?
– you said there was factual evidence supporting the bible
– we asked for that evidence
– you listed things like, martyrs, historical names, some (although excluded the contentious ones) examples of supporting archaeology, etc
– we showed where other religions claim the same “credentials”
– you said that they were still wrong because they had errors in them
– we asked what they were
– you said their “basic” principles were flawed.
– we asked how much you’d studied them?
– you didnt study them
– we pointed out that their flaws could be explained away in the same manner that you explain away the flaws of the bible
– you said, of course they do that, but they’re lying. the bible is truth, they cant all be right, therefore they’re lying and wrong.
is that not accurate? because, that;s how I recall it going down.
Maybe like “liberal” you use “objective” differently and hold your own definition. could you define it for us if that’s the case?
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Kathy, you don’t know us better that we know ourselves. If you did, you’d be able to identify with us — show some empathy and compassion. So far, you only show that you misunderstand us to a large degree.
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““Prove it.. what’s your evidence that Bush lied about Iraq?” – well, I personally watched him say on national TV that the reason we were invading Iraq was that the Iraquis possessed Weapons of Mass Destruction. Now if you believe that was true, you just trot those bad boys out –”
Yes, he BELIEVED that.. but if you notice, belief is very different from lying.. you need to show that he KNEW there were no WMDs… just like it’s been proven that Obama KNEW that Benghazi was a terrorist attack but tried to lie to the entire country for the sake of his re-election.. just like he let those 4 men die for the sake of his re-election. And thanks to the bravery of 2 of those men… something Obama and liberals know nothing about.. it wasn’t MORE than 4.. it could have easily been a lot more people who would have died that night.. all so Obama could get re-elected.. but yep Arch.. as you pointed out.. he was elected “twice”!
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“Oh LOOK! It appears that the liberals/ atheists here are proving me right yet AGAIN..
As we are slowly moving into the political / social arena.. can it be?? That ALL the atheists here ALSO adhere to LIBERAL policies and beliefs?? Why YES!” – kathy
well, dont say “all.” many havent chimed in.
Again, i’m not “liberal” politically, but an independent. this is all beside the point anyways, as the politics dont change what the bible says.
Have you read those verses in John, by the way? your thoughts on them?
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Kathy, you’re demonstrating what I talked about earlier.
You just said that Bush believed there were WMDs in Iraq, even though there weren’t. I tend to agree with you there. I don’t think he was actually lying about that.
But then you swung completely the other way and said that Obama knew things about Benghazi that he didn’t actually know at the time, and that he was using it to get reelected which is an incredibly inflammatory accusation that also happens to be flat-out wrong.
Why can’t you see that you’re being guilty of the very same things you’re accusing others of?
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Since we KNOW you won’t check out anyone’s suggested links, but rather will rail on and on about what liberal, subversive material you ASSUME they contain, I’ll bring some to you, your Royal Highny:
“An August 2006 report prepared at the direction of Rep. John Conyers, Jr. found that ‘members of the Bush Administration misstated, overstated, and manipulated intelligence with regards to linkages between Iraq and Al Qaeda; the acquisition of nuclear weapons by Iraq; the acquisition of aluminum tubes to be used as uranium centrifuges; and the acquisition of uranium from Niger.’ The report also noted that ‘[b]eyond making false and misleading statements about Iraq’s attempt to acquire nuclear weapons, the record shows the Bush Administration must have known these statements conflicted with known international and domestic intelligence at the time.’ Finding that the administration had also misstated or overstated intelligence information regarding chemical and biological weapons, the report concluded that ‘these misstatements were in contradiction of known countervailing intelligence information, and were the result of political pressure and manipulation.’ In short, the Bush gang misrepresented the WMD threat to justify its planned invasion of Iraq.“
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“- you said there was factual evidence supporting the bible
– we asked for that evidence
– you listed things like, martyrs, historical names, some (although excluded the contentious ones) examples of supporting archaeology, etc
– we showed where other religions claim the same “credentials”
– you said that they were still wrong because they had errors in them
– we asked what they were
– you said their “basic” principles were flawed.
– we asked how much you’d studied them?
– you didnt study them
– we pointed out that their flaws could be explained away in the same manner that you explain away the flaws of the bible
– you said, of course they do that, but they’re lying. the bible is truth, they cant all be right, therefore they’re lying and wrong.
is that not accurate? because, that;s how I recall it going down.”
Again William, you are recalling wrong.
You’ve distorted all of it. Is this the best you have? Distortion of my words?
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“Yes, he BELIEVED that.. but if you notice, belief is very different from lying.. you need to show that he KNEW there were no WMDs… just like it’s been proven that Obama KNEW that Benghazi was a terrorist attack but tried to lie to the entire country for the sake of his re-election.. just like he let those 4 men die for the sake of his re-election. And thanks to the bravery of 2 of those men… something Obama and liberals know nothing about.. it wasn’t MORE than 4.. it could have easily been a lot more people who would have died that night.. all so Obama could get re-elected.. but yep Arch.. as you pointed out.. he was elected “twice”!” – kathy
let’s not discuss politics, but i wil lsay that i agree with you regarding bush, but disagree regarding obama.
Did the administration try to downplay the role of terrorism, looks like it. Did they let the people die for reelection – I really dont think so. It doenst make sense on many levels, but there hasnt been proof – and if there has, then you should provide it as you request regarding bush and WMD’s, otherwise, let’s leave politics aside for now.
but what’s your point about bravery and liberals knowing nothing about it? what are you suggesting here?
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Nate asked, “Why can’t you see that you are being guilty of the very same things you’re accusing others of”?
I believe it’s referred to as being delusional. . .
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“On September 21, 2001, Bush was told in the President’s Daily Brief that the intelligence community had no evidence connecting Saddam Hussein’s regime to the 9/11 attacks. Furthermore, there was scant credible evidence that Iraq had any significant collaborative ties with al Qaeda. This was no surprise. Al Qaeda is a consortium of intensely religious Islamic fundamentalists, whereas Hussein ran a secular government that repressed religious activity in Iraq.
Undeterred, Bush and his people continued to tout the connection. Although the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) determined in February 2002 that ‘Iraq is unlikely to have provided bin Laden any useful [chemical or biological weapons] knowledge or assistance,’ Bush proclaimed one year later, ‘Iraq has also provided al-Qaeda with chemical and biological weapons training.’ And although the CIA concluded in a classified January 2003 report that Hussein ‘viewed Islamic extremists operating inside Iraq as a threat,’ Cheney claimed the next day that the Iraqi government ‘aids and protects terrorists, including members of al-Qaeda.’“
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“You’ve distorted all of it. Is this the best you have? Distortion of my words?” – kathy
well, I certainly was trying to. here’s some of your exact words:
“Nate, I believe Muslims have come up with their own answers just like Mormons do and any other religion that claims “truth”.. but the difference is that their answers are not valid.
You seem to forget that not all of these religions can be true.. only one can be true. So the others ARE lying! So, of course they all come up with answers, but their answers are based on lies, just as their religion is based on lies.
Yes, Muslims can make the very same claims about Christianity.. but Christianity can successfully defend itself, Islam can’t.. based on it’s OWN words.
And as I explained to William, it’s not rational to put forth the same effort in understanding a religion that has basic fundamental flaws in it’s theology and credentials. There’s no need to look further… when the religion is based on evil.. some might disagree, and they would be liberals of course.. who don’t want to be politically incorrect.. to them, even “evil” shouldn’t be “judged”.. it’s pathetic.” – kathy
I thinK i summed it up fairly, where was I wrong? you havent shown how christianity has successfully defended itself where islam cannot. – can you elaborate?
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As I stated, I know you all better than you know yourselves.. you’re ultimately motivated by your pride and ego. You all show exactly how dangerous pride can be..
The world would be a much better place if we all thought exactly like Kathy. smh…
You think you can read a few posts, have a few conversations, and have us all figured out. I read your post, btw, and the comments that followed. Do you speak to your less conservative “friends” the way you’ve spoken to anyone here while you’re out having drinks?
We could all say the same things about you; that we know you better than you know yourself; that everything about you is boiled down to a label. Is that what you are, Kathy, a label? Is that all you want anyone to think about or know about you? That you’re a self-righteous bigot? I doubt it. You’ve shown that about yourself, but I highly doubt that’s all you are. I’m sure there must be more to you than what I’ve seen on this blog post. I don’t dare to presume to know more about you than you know about yourself because you hold a certain belief.
A thing that I think you are quite guilty of is this: if you can put a label on a group you can dehumanize them. You can forget completely that there are real people with real lives behind these avatars. You can write them off as liberal, or evil, or atheist and you’ve got them sized right up. You’ve got all of life figured out.
The problem is, Kathy, that conservatives have held sway on this entire planet for way longer than any supposed liberals have. Explain, then, why the world is in such a mess if you conservatives have it all figured out. It’s not like everything was hunky dory and us liberals just came along and screwed it up. Conservative, fundamentalists had it all botched up long before that was ever a consideration. Before there was ever a conservative or liberal label.
Take your label maker and throw it out the window. People don’t live their real lives in tidy little boxes. In fact, I highly doubt you do either.
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9/11 was one of the best things that happened to Little George W:
“According to sources inside the administration, George W. Bush was planning to invade Iraq and remove its government well before the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. Such an invasion violates the UN Charter, which the United States signed in 1945 after the bloodiest conflict in history. The Charter permits countries to use military force against another country only in self-defense or with Security Council permission. But the evidence indicates that the U.S.-led invasion satisfied neither condition and is therefore a war of aggression, which constitutes a Crime Against Peace – exactly the kind of war the Charter was meant to prevent.”
I highlighted that one phrase specifically, because I wanted to be sure you knew it didn’t come from some “Liberal” organization.
Now, as soon as you trot out the evidence that convinces me that there’s a god, and that it’s the Bible’s god, we can take a closer look at the rest. Meanwhile, I gonna take a little nap ovah heah on da couch –>
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Ramen, Ruth – Ramen.
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“As I stated, I know you all better than you know yourselves.. you’re ultimately motivated by your pride and ego. You all show exactly how dangerous pride can be..” – kathy
this is almost claiming you’re the most humble person who ever lived…
motivated by pride and ego? how’s that? let me guess; by not believing in the bible?
Motivated by pride and ego? you mean like claiming to know people better than they know themselves?
yeah, i guess I am then. because I have come to know you and mike a little, and neither possess certain key traits that a christian is said to possess.
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Well said, Ruth.
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“archaeopteryx1
July 15, 2014 at 9:47 am
What I found amusing, Ron, was her spin on the title of the video she offered – “RADICAL Islam’s war against the West” – one mindset, her target audience of the mindless, will read the implication that Islam is a radical religion, whereas if cornered, she has a built-in escape hatch, which she uses – “We weren’t accusing ALL Muslims, only the RADICAL ones –” They learn to spin early, don’t they?”
And thanks AGAIN, Arch! You’ve PERFECTLY demonstrated REVERSE IGNORANCE!
First, my “target audience” is people like you.. who have a real problem seeing your OWN ignorance.
And it’s the very confused/ indoctrinated/ brainwashed like you who see “RADICAL Islam’s war against the West” as a description of “ALL” Muslims.. oh look.. there’s that word “all” again.. what a shocker..
Here’s the point of my article Arch.. we CAN’T let the truly confused and indoctrinated (by people with truly twisted agendas) destroy this country. We refuse to let stupidity and ignorance take down the best country to ever exist. That you all can’t DISCERN the difference clearly spelled out in the title AND the video in reference.. is going to have to be YOUR problem.. conservatives and Christians are speaking up.. squashing your dishonest manipulation tactics.. because we cherish our freedoms and our country.
As I explained in my article, if we can’t identify those who want to destroy us.. HOW are we going to fight them? HOW are we going to protect our freedoms/ country?? It can’t be done unless we first IDENTIFY them. But brainwashed and delusional liberals ignorantly believe that the worst thing is not our total destruction.. but offending those who want to destroy us or who don’t denounce those who want to destroy us. Liberals are so driven by pride.. they don’t like anyone being “bullied”, not just them.. so in reality, America is the “bully”.. and therefore must be “brought down a notch”.. this IS Obama’s goal! And you all blindly support it.. I don’t know how many here are not Americans.. but I guess your support of Obama would make sense, due to your liberal bully complex… but it makes no sense when Americans feel this way.. it’s the EPITOME of stupidity.
So, let’s not “offend” the Muslims.. don’t say ANYTHING “bad” about ANY of them.. then they’ll see how “nice” we are and will be nice to us! That’s the liberal “answer”.. it’s incredibly ignorant of reality and history. It’s REVERSE IGNORANCE. Because while liberals call me and others “ignorant” for wanting to address a serious problem in the most RATIONAL way possible… it’s the REVERSE that is true.. the liberal is incredibly ignorant.. ignorant of reality and of their own ridiculous hypocrisy. It would be pure comedy if our very existence wasn’t at stake.
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Ruth, you said:
” Is that what you are, Kathy, a label? Is that all you want anyone to think about or know about you? That you’re a self-righteous bigot? I doubt it. You’ve shown that about yourself,..”
Ok Ruth, that’s fine.. make your accusations just like I have.. but, just like I have.. please BACK IT UP. I’ll keep asking this until you answer.
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Kathy, what you seem to miss is that the real threat is reactionaries, like yourself. Sadly, you are a fundamentalist, just as Islamic terrorists are often fundamentalists. I don’t think you’re going to bomb any buildings, but it’s only because Christianity doesn’t tell you to. If it did, you’d be on the front lines.
As evidence: you criticize Islam for its barbarous teachings of killing infidels, but you make excuses for the same kinds of passages that are in the OT. Thank goodness the NT doesn’t echo them, or you’d be bound to murder those of us who have left Christianity.
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Kathy, you’ve already made Ruth’s point. She doesn’t need to back it up, because you continually show it with your rants about “liberals”
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. .. and let me guess, Kathy. God is on your side, right?
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As I explained in my article, if we can’t identify those who want to destroy us.. HOW are we going to fight them? HOW are we going to protect our freedoms/ country?? It can’t be done unless we first IDENTIFY them. But brainwashed and delusional liberals ignorantly believe that the worst thing is not our total destruction.. but offending those who want to destroy us or who don’t denounce those who want to destroy us.
Kathy, the way you’re ranting here makes it sound like you’re just one step away from a suicide bomb, yourself. You want to take up arms against anyone who doesn’t think like you. You consistently make these types of statements. What do I need to back up? That you’d like to squash and eradicate all those who don’t fit into your conservative mold? You’re doing that just fine all on your own.
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“society has gone too far in the opposite direction and as a result have themselves become hypocritically ignorant and blind.”
“Obama’s campaign symbol depicts the sun rising over the American flag…. Islamic prophecy (prophetic commentary on the Qu’ran, Bukhari Volume 60, book 60, 159,) says that ‘the sun will rise in the west….’. 20% of THE WORLD’S population (Muslims) believe that Barack Obama is the fulfillment of this prophecy!!!”
Is this an assumption that all Muslims believe this?
“The blatant liberally biased slant by CNN may have been the cause of this discrepancy… was she a fictitious person? The only other explanation would be that this woman supports the radical Muslim movement!!”
The “blatant liberally biased slant by CNN” involves an assumption that CNN reporting is biased and slanted, and why woujld the woman supporting the Muslim movement be “the only other explanation”?
“I’ve had to make the point several times while debating with some of these reverse ignorant ( who demanded PROOF that Obama’s questionable choices lead to his guilt ) that a democratic presidential election is NOT decided in a court of law where a person is innocent until PROVEN guilty beyond a reasonable doubt… proof beyond a reasonable doubt is NOT a prerequisite in order to not elect!!….We should be able to, and we MUST make our choices based on ALL of the available information not just the proven facts… yet many of my accusers (Democratic liberals) have insisted that I am wrong for bringing up even factual information on the basis that it leads to conclusions that have not been proven.….NO… I DON’T THINK SO… IWILL consider circumstantial evidence when making my decision and will also fight reverse ignorance by letting others know that it IS OK for them to do the same. Censorship is an injustice characteristic of communist governments, NOT US… people have fought and died so we could be free to make our choices using ALL of the information that we, as individuals, deem important not just the CENSORED information that the biased and ignorant (and liberal) portion of society deems as important.
With reverse ignorance so prevalent in our society even the conservative media wouldn’t dare mention the word Muslim in the same sentence with Barack Obama, during the campaign, for fear of being attacked by the many reverse ignorant in our society … besides… “it’s just simply a ‘ludicrous’ idea that Obama would have any suspicious ties or alliances that could cause us to question his loyalty to this country… that’s just crazy!”
AGAIN… this is an extremely serious issue!… In order to keep our nation safe from the people who are working on an hourly basis to destroy us, we MUST Not rely on blind judgements and ignorant assumptions! … we MUST address any questionable circumstances!! But because of reverse ignorance in our society, and even in the media, ANY focus on those questionable circumstances is quickly deemed as not only ignorant, intolerant and bigoted, but also ‘outrageous and ridiculous!’ and ‘below the belt tactics’ used by conservatives. Period … end of story. INGNORANCE AT THE HIGHEST AND MOST DANGEROUS LEVEL!!”
That’s it – that’s all you get – you know all of the crap you wrote, but I just ate, and I’m getting sick just reading your bile. You’re not worth wasting perfectly good mushroom soup.
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